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Hah. I spend ten minutes angrily typing out a long book of a post and lo and behold, others have made the same point for me. Thanks guys.

 CIsaac wrote:


I never said it was 40K or Fantasy. You presumed wrong, and it was 40K. $140 gets her:

You actually did though...

Orks does not equal orcs. Orks are 40K and orcs are fantasy. Since you actually specified orks as opposed to orcs, it was rather specific. Granted, that is really neither here nor there - other than it makes the other post less relevant as they ignore what you actually said in GW's own lingo.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:


I never said it was 40K or Fantasy. You presumed wrong, and it was 40K. $140 gets her:

You actually did though...

Orks does not equal orcs. Orks are 40K and orcs are fantasy. Since you actually specified orks as opposed to orcs, it was rather specific. Granted, that is really neither here nor there - other than it makes the other post less relevant as they ignore what you actually said in GW's own lingo.

So I did. Well played, sir. Well played.

Though the real difference is that the Ork Battleforce + Warboss .... technically substantially fewer points than the Orc and Goblin battalion, and while 40K scales down better than Fantasy, that's still gonna be ~400 points; not much of a game.

The point goes to Clsaac and S. O'Brien!

Dingdingding!

Gentlemen, congratulations, you have won the internet!

(trophies in the likenesses of Steve Jobs and Al Gore riding a bear will be delivered to your houses shortly)

hellpato wrote:
I read a lot of people sick of GW and changing game. I understand that and even me I'm looking other games and I'm a big fan of 40k (and I don't care about the big bad evil and all other stuff). But I don't remember or I didn't see if someone did a game who look like warhammer 40 or WHFB.

If I play Infinity, kingdom of deaht etc and look if they are better than 40k, I cannot, they are not the same "gameplay". Which game I can do this comparison?

There aren't many games like 40K at the moment, which is OK because there are many games that are better
There are a lot of smaller scale sci-fi skirmish games, and lots of small mini big battle games, but nothing of 40K's size.

There's plenty of competition for WHFB, because it's a generic Tolkienesque fantasy game. Kings Of War by Mantic seems to be biggest one at the moment because the rules are pretty streamlined and fast to play, taking up a whole 12 pages and available for free. Written by Alessio Cavatore ,who worked on most of GW's games rules. You can use any figures you want for it.

There are probably dozens of other fantasy games out there, though I'm not familiar with any of them.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I just started 40k a few months ago , so nope, it hasn't priced me out.

I love the 40k universe. I REALLY love it. I have read some posts around here that makes me believe I'm in a minority, but I truly love this universe.
I knew about it before the dawn of war series, but it was my first big intro to this wonderful universe. I played it, I started reading more about it, I played the expansions, I played Dawn of War 2, I played Space Marine, I started collecting the Black Library books, many about Space Marines but a lot others about Inquisition, IG and any "xenos" based stories I found.
Heck, even with civilians! I actually have a short-story where the main character is a simple Adept with no combat experience.

And some months ago I stopped resisting and started "The Hobby". I love it. I'm actually painting and creating my own Necrons (Oh, and again, I'm in a minority. I like the NewCrons a LOT. I WILL have a Cleopatra as a "Count-as" Overlord or Nemesor ).
Yes, it's expensive and it made me quit MtG, but it just doesn't compare. I plan on starting other armies once I feel my Necrons are "done", and that is going to take a while.

Some models are very expensive, yes, but that's why I search for other online stores with better prices. I like the GW's 40k models a lot and there aren't many alternative models for Necrons (No, PuppetsWar models don't count, they are cool but are not Necrons, not one bit) so my only hope is to keep searching around the internet for the better prices. eBay helps too! As long as there are alternatives to the prices GW has in their website, I'm game for more minis.

Sorry for the long rant, but after reading so many pages of negative comments, I felt like telling my story with 40k

If you like the Lore/fluff of the universe I recomend you get into Fantasy flights RPG line of games instead, Dark Herasy, Deathwatch etc. You have to find a few friends to do it with, but its so much more fun if you want to explore the universe of 40k. And the Roleplaying games do not need the same level of balance as table top game to be fun. Also when reading your post you look to be among the few dedicated people who actually likes to paint armies .. welcome to the minority.

But the more you will play the game the more frustrated you will become. Sorry this is the truth about the GW part of the hobby...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

hellpato wrote:
I read a lot of people sick of GW and changing game. I understand that and even me I'm looking other games and I'm a big fan of 40k (and I don't care about the big bad evil and all other stuff). But I don't remember or I didn't see if someone did a game who look like warhammer 40 or WHFB.

If I play Infinity, kingdom of deaht etc and look if they are better than 40k, I cannot, they are not the same "gameplay". Which game I can do this comparison?

There aren't many games like 40K at the moment, which is OK because there are many games that are better
There are a lot of smaller scale sci-fi skirmish games, and lots of small mini big battle games, but nothing of 40K's size.

There's plenty of competition for WHFB, because it's a generic Tolkienesque fantasy game. Kings Of War by Mantic seems to be biggest one at the moment because the rules are pretty streamlined and fast to play, taking up a whole 12 pages and available for free. Written by Alessio Cavatore ,who worked on most of GW's games rules. You can use any figures you want for it.

There are probably dozens of other fantasy games out there, though I'm not familiar with any of them.

Warmachine/hordes hands down has the better game then GW.. and you can play it on a LARGE SCALE if you want.. people cry skirmish game, but you can if you want play Warmachine/hordes with alot of models on the table, there are special rules for this in the main rulebook... Also as Warmachine/hordes is a much more tactical game its alot more fun to play with fewer models... Give it a try Herzios I dont think you will regreat it..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darefsky wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:


She spent $80 on a starter and an infantry squad and she's already got a small, playable army, with another $12 spent on a mini Rulebook from eBay. She wants to add a squad of Burrowers and one large Dire Troll and that'll top her spending off at about $140. Similar amounts spent for GW doesn't get you anywhere close with an Ork army.

Hey buddy, might want to research your point before you make it.

A Warhammer fantasy army worth $140 can look like this:

Orc Battalion
-20 Goblins
-15 Orc Boys
-10 Spider Riders
-5 Boar Boys

+£18 icing on the cake, say a box of Boys.

You've now got 50 models and only require some sort of Lord or whatever to get playing. This is at non-discount prices. When I do large orders, I always do it at discount prices. Correct if I am wrong but is that not more models than your GF's army has?

Unless you're genuinely focused on the competitive side of the hobby and want to get playing right away there's plenty of time to be building and creating the army before you get the rulebook.

The difference is that once his GF adds the Dire Troll and the Burrowers she is at a 35pt army and can actually play a standard tournament (Not a 50pt but still) 35pts is about the same as a 1500pt 40k army when it comes to tournament size.

Lets not also forget that you can only play "FAKE" Tournaments with Games workshop armies, there is NO OFFICAL SUPPORT for Torunaments from games workshop. That makes playing competetivly with GW games a total JOKE these days... Dont know how braindead you would have to be to host and play a gaming system that has ZERO support in the rules from its creators.... It just feels like a badly made farce for delusional people HAHAHA...

Compare this to Warmachine/hordes and Privateer Press and you can see how far behind Games Workshop is these days.... GW has a gaming system from the last century.. it will go the same way as KODAK, BetaMAX and all other things that did not keep up with the times... Old technology is Old.. if you dont evolve you die..

Nucflash wrote:

Warmachine/hordes hands down has the better game then GW.. and you can play it on a LARGE SCALE if you want.. people cry skirmish game, but you can if you want play Warmachine/hordes with alot of models on the table, there are special rules for this in the main rulebook... Also as Warmachine/hordes is a much more tactical game its alot more fun to play with fewer models... Give it a try Herzios I dont think you will regreat it..

If the local club I'm going to join plays it I'll probably get in on it. Maybe after I've got a Saga warband together though But I certainly don't doubt WM/H is the better game.

 CIsaac wrote:


How much does it cost to make a 1500 point army for Orks vs a 35 point army for Trollbloods? Well, for the Trollbloods it's not terribly much. Madrak + the starter box is 10 points. The scouts are 8 I believe. most heavy warbeasts/jacks are 8-9. Add the Pygmies and we're already there. Toss in a solo or UA as filler and you're finished (and we could easily switch out one squad box for another if we were more WAAC, but probably won't due to taste).

How much does it cost to get to 1500 for the Space Orks? A lot more.

Also by dropping a small amount of money one of the following: a single new caster, a couple of solos, a new small unit, a new light beast. She could potentially really change the way the army plays. Going further, with another $50 worth of stuff would mean being able to field what feels like functionally an entirely new list and may even bump things up to 50pts in some cases. GW armies have this odd sort of momentum to them, where all the pieces really play into a certain a style. If you want to fundamentally change how things play you can't just hot-swap a couple of pieces. You may even have to wind up buying more boxes of the exact same troops you have just so you change equipment load outs. You can never make a single purchase that changes how your army plays as much as a new caster, or even a new beast does.

A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

+ about £40 for the codex & rules.

That doesn't give you much versatility though. Yes you can make a cheap army using split starter boxes from eBay and conversions, but that only works for things that were in the box sets. Want to field anything else? It'll probably cost you a lot more.

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

Now you've changed the argument to aesthetics.

Well, it already does rely on out of production models.

This threat is turning into a PP vs GW slug fest.

Now it is a viable comparison your talking about the two biggest companies in the table top industry, one is on the rise and gaining speed rapidly and the other is in a slow downward spiral. We can talk about aesthetics and rules and all that ad nauseam.

But back on to the topic of GW pricing out players...The answer is yes. Yes in the fact that the value of the overall product from rules to paints, to mini's, to codex. GW has jumped the shark.

While lots and lots and lots of people still buy and play GW systems its not nearly as large as 5 years ago, Look at the Swap Shop on Dakka you see people wanting to get rid of GW for all kinds of others games, Look at Barter Town, Look at the pricing on eBay. The list goes on and on.

So yes Virginia there is a Santa Clause....err wait, I meant yes GW is pricing it's self out of the market. Hopefully they will learn and change course, offer a better overall product and be a truly viable gaming choice in the future again.....

 darefsky wrote:

While lots and lots and lots of people still buy and play GW systems its not nearly as large as 5 years ago, Look at the Swap Shop on Dakka you see people wanting to get rid of GW for all kinds of others games, Look at Barter Town, Look at the pricing on eBay. The list goes on and on.

False conclusion. Because GW is so old, it's just as likely that there are lots of people with multiple armies looking to unload them for other things. There's a lot more available, so the price will inevitably go down.

WM/H has a tighter ruleset more appropriate for competitive play, but you can't say it's better. That's purely subjective. There are plenty of folks that like the narrative beer & pretzels gameplay 40k provides.

As far as AoBR Orks being "visually boring" --> Privateer can't even put 5 unique sculpts in a 5-man unit (I'm looking square at you, Trollkin Sluggers).

As to tournaments: The largest wargaming conventions/tournaments in the country are based around 40k. Adepticon. Feast of Blades. BoLS Con. There must be some viability in the game as a tournament game if these conventions continue to grow and thrive (the major 40k events at Adepticon all sold out in the first few hours.)

Personally, I think all the sky is falling conjecture regarding GWs demise is greatly overstated.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

Beyond that, it is relying on 3rd party, second hand markets like eBay. If you are smart about it - you could probably pick up PP armies for those prices or less. You could also sculpt your own armies from scratch for the cost of a tube or three of epoxy putty. If you are criminal about it - you could wait outside your local game store and mug the people who come out with the product you want for free. That is just as valid of a point as the second hand markets are for these sorts of discussions. Yes, someone who has been around for awhile can find cheaper sources for products...however, that normally doesn't apply to someone who is entering into the game. For these discussions to be valid, you need to compare like to like. In this case, compare retail to retail.

Rules are somewhat valid to the discussion, as the rules will dictate the cost of entry in many ways. Since several games offer inexpensive (and even free) rules compared to GW who you are getting to be well over $100 for just the rules to play the game ($50 for the new hardback Codices and $74.25 for the rulebook) - that alone is pertinent. It becomes more important when you look at what it takes to play a proper game (whether your definition of proper is a competitive tournament army or something which works within the confines of your local game groups) - in general, the GW rules favor larger armies over smaller armies and in the case of WFB they often fail entirely below a certain level.

Aesthetics are harder to work into the discussion. If you don't like the aestetics of a game like Infinity - you won't like the figures. However, that doesn't actually impact the price of the figures. It might be valid to the individual in that they won't be interested in buying them, but it still doesn't impact the cost of the game and entry into the game.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

Beyond that, it is relying on 3rd party, second hand markets like eBay. If you are smart about it - you could probably pick up PP armies for those prices or less. You could also sculpt your own armies from scratch for the cost of a tube or three of epoxy putty. If you are criminal about it - you could wait outside your local game store and mug the people who come out with the product you want for free. That is just as valid of a point as the second hand markets are for these sorts of discussions. Yes, someone who has been around for awhile can find cheaper sources for products...however, that normally doesn't apply to someone who is entering into the game. For these discussions to be valid, you need to compare like to like. In this case, compare retail to retail.

Rules are somewhat valid to the discussion, as the rules will dictate the cost of entry in many ways. Since several games offer inexpensive (and even free) rules compared to GW who you are getting to be well over $100 for just the rules to play the game ($50 for the new hardback Codices and $74.25 for the rulebook) - that alone is pertinent. It becomes more important when you look at what it takes to play a proper game (whether your definition of proper is a competitive tournament army or something which works within the confines of your local game groups) - in general, the GW rules favor larger armies over smaller armies and in the case of WFB they often fail entirely below a certain level.

Aesthetics are harder to work into the discussion. If you don't like the aestetics of a game like Infinity - you won't like the figures. However, that doesn't actually impact the price of the figures. It might be valid to the individual in that they won't be interested in buying them, but it still doesn't impact the cost of the game and entry into the game.

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

 filbert wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

Also, to add to what Filbert was saying, what if you find the two factions in the start boxes unappealing? DA/CSM or HE/Skaven are the choices of the current, in production boxes. What if you find Tau more appealing to collect/paint? Or Ogre Kingdoms? Then you're left with a mass of plastic that you won't be able to do much with other than re-sell or trade. Or you could just buy the mini Rulebook from a bitz seller online, but that requires a little bit of knowledge of what you really need out of that box.

 cincydooley wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

While lots and lots and lots of people still buy and play GW systems its not nearly as large as 5 years ago, Look at the Swap Shop on Dakka you see people wanting to get rid of GW for all kinds of others games, Look at Barter Town, Look at the pricing on eBay. The list goes on and on.

False conclusion. Because GW is so old, it's just as likely that there are lots of people with multiple armies looking to unload them for other things. There's a lot more available, so the price will inevitably go down.

WM/H has a tighter ruleset more appropriate for competitive play, but you can't say it's better. That's purely subjective. There are plenty of folks that like the narrative beer & pretzels gameplay 40k provides.

As far as AoBR Orks being "visually boring" --> Privateer can't even put 5 unique sculpts in a 5-man unit (I'm looking square at you, Trollkin Sluggers).

As to tournaments: The largest wargaming conventions/tournaments in the country are based around 40k. Adepticon. Feast of Blades. BoLS Con. There must be some viability in the game as a tournament game if these conventions continue to grow and thrive (the major 40k events at Adepticon all sold out in the first few hours.)

Personally, I think all the sky is falling conjecture regarding GWs demise is greatly overstated.

You are correct that what I see is my conjecture. However I never said PP was "better" I said it had tighter rules and better supports its player base.

As to the sculpts they are coming along. slowly but surely. Look at the gawd-awful old WGI vs the new resculpts that are plastic and cheaper.

But again we're talking semantics of astetics ect. The topic is one of GW perceived price for value, and you honestly can't deny that more and more people are seeing that the value GW provides for the price it charges isn't adding up anymore.

In regards to folks actually liking the GW Fantasy models, and willing to pay the prices, but not liking the rules....

The rules for Kings of War are free, and you can use the GW figures just fine. The fluff can be 'borrowed' from Fantasy, just fine.

I do that with my Empire army.

Warpath is not quite up to substituting for WH40K though... at least not yet. But it is also free, so might be worth a whirl.

The Auld Grump

 cincydooley wrote:


I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

It is a OOP starter box...which in order to make work, the poster was parting out (counting only the ork half - not the retail cost). I have no problem using starter boxes - but you need to look at retail prices, not 3rd party markets. A couple of the AOBR boxes (if you find them on the shelf) will set you back a couple hundred bucks - not the $108. You would still need to snag a copy of the Ork codex as well. Plus, your average noob does not start their first army where they need to convert over half their force to make it work.

If we look at the current starter set - yes, you do get the small rulebook...but you do still need to drop $50 on a Codex (either CSM or Dark Angels). It is a better value than buying things bit by bit - but you need to to recognize that you need more than what is in the box in order to really start playing games.

 filbert wrote:
is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies

No, it really is not. Not when compared to Lego, Scalextrix, Hornby Train sets, play castles at £50, Star Wars Droid transport at £115, set of two Doctor Who action figures for £25. If you want to start comparing GW to other hobbies GW wins.

Maybe my local club is unique, maybe it's gamers are more well-to-do, but there is no this vs that, only what do we play first.

 filbert wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

Such as and including?

Their primary competition sells their starter for $100. And you get half the miniatures...

To get a 2P starter for pretty much any wargame you're looking at around $100.

The only thing that's really a better value is the Warpath Starter at $75, and that's precisely what they aimed for.

Want a Nintendo DS? Your buy in is significantly higher.

Want an iPod with some Apps? Significantly higher.

Perhaps you'd like to start golfing? Significantly higher.

 cincydooley wrote:

 filbert wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

Such as and including?

Their primary competition sells their starter for $100. And you get half the miniatures...

To get a 2P starter for pretty much any wargame you're looking at around $100.

The only thing that's really a better value is the Warpath Starter at $75, and that's precisely what they aimed for.

Want a Nintendo DS? Your buy in is significantly higher.

Want an iPod with some Apps? Significantly higher.

Perhaps you'd like to start golfing? Significantly higher.

I wouldn't suggest continuing this line of reasoning. It's really easy to cherry pick hobbies that are more or less expensive than a mini wargaming buy-in. Crocheting? Needle Point? Origami? Powerwalking? Sleeping? Sudoku? Reading?

Speaking as a parent, if my children wanted a GW starter set or a DS or something similar, then the DS would win. It might cost more but again, as a parent, I think more use would be gotten out of it.

Again, most of us are looking at this with through gamer's eyes when really you need to put yourself in the place of the average parent, who has no prior knowledge or understanding of GW or gaming and who is simply walking into a store, looking at the stock and the prices. Put yourself in their shoes - can you honestly say that you would pay £75 or £100 or whatever for some bits of plastic and dice for a child with the knowledge it could well be tossed aside in disinterest within a month? I wouldn't and to be fair, I wouldn't pay that price for other manufacturers or hobbies either: PP stuff is just as expensive in terms of price per model, so are a lot of kids toys but that is the dilemma that many GW customers face; they are buying stuff for their kids, stuff that looks expensive for what it is and that, for all they know, could be discarded quickly if the child doesn't like it.

I'm not a big lover of GW at the moment, but 90% of this thread is just proper schoolboy-esque whinging. There's a few pertinent points, but its distressing that grown men get so upset about their plastic toys.

Ultimately, a product is worth what its worth to the buyer. If someone is willing to pay 50 Euros for one model (I'm not) then so be it. If most people aren't, then the model wont sell, but there's no need for people to be actively trying to discourage a guy out of spite like this..

Nucflash wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I just started 40k a few months ago , so nope, it hasn't priced me out.

I love the 40k universe. I REALLY love it. I have read some posts around here that makes me believe I'm in a minority, but I truly love this universe.
I knew about it before the dawn of war series, but it was my first big intro to this wonderful universe. I played it, I started reading more about it, I played the expansions, I played Dawn of War 2, I played Space Marine, I started collecting the Black Library books, many about Space Marines but a lot others about Inquisition, IG and any "xenos" based stories I found.
Heck, even with civilians! I actually have a short-story where the main character is a simple Adept with no combat experience.

And some months ago I stopped resisting and started "The Hobby". I love it. I'm actually painting and creating my own Necrons (Oh, and again, I'm in a minority. I like the NewCrons a LOT. I WILL have a Cleopatra as a "Count-as" Overlord or Nemesor ).
Yes, it's expensive and it made me quit MtG, but it just doesn't compare. I plan on starting other armies once I feel my Necrons are "done", and that is going to take a while.

Some models are very expensive, yes, but that's why I search for other online stores with better prices. I like the GW's 40k models a lot and there aren't many alternative models for Necrons (No, PuppetsWar models don't count, they are cool but are not Necrons, not one bit) so my only hope is to keep searching around the internet for the better prices. eBay helps too! As long as there are alternatives to the prices GW has in their website, I'm game for more minis.

Sorry for the long rant, but after reading so many pages of negative comments, I felt like telling my story with 40k

But the more you will play the game the more frustrated you will become. Sorry this is the truth about the GW part of the hobby...

Lets not also forget that you can only play "FAKE" Tournaments with Games workshop armies, there is NO OFFICAL SUPPORT for Torunaments from games workshop. That makes playing competetivly with GW games a total JOKE these days... Dont know how braindead you would have to be to host and play a gaming system that has ZERO support in the rules from its creators.... It just feels like a badly made farce for delusional people HAHAHA...

Compare this to Warmachine/hordes and Privateer Press and you can see how far behind Games Workshop is these days.... GW has a gaming system from the last century.. it will go the same way as KODAK, BetaMAX and all other things that did not keep up with the times... Old technology is Old.. if you dont evolve you die..

Is really ridiculous. Are some people so full of bile and hate that they want to piss all over a kids chips? Im old now and as a result I enjoy the hobby less than I did ten years ago, but feth me.. I can remember what it felt like to get really IN to something, the lad states how much he loves the lore and the hobby despite the price, and he starts getting debriefed and told that GW SUX DUDE and its a "farce for delusional people HAHAHA" that you have to be "braindead" to want to play.

The only person who looks truly delusional to me is someone that goes ridiculously ape gak because a toy company has some suits at the top wringing the cash out of it. Its not a big leap to imagine them attempting to eat their keyboard and then marching into a shopping mall with a bushmaster to bring some "justice" to the streets.

Welcome to the world. If the obvious fact that everyone is out to make a buck blows your mind so much that you feel the need to mock people, I look forward to the day you snap entirely after Apple patent a rectangle or Microsoft force you to buy a new OS.

GW has plenty of issues, and sure they could do with lowering their prices.. but acting like a feth head and trying to rip the piss out of people who enjoy the hobby is not just morally wrong, it makes you look like a spoiled school girl.

 cincydooley wrote:

Such as and including?

Their primary competition sells their starter for $100. And you get half the miniatures...

To get a 2P starter for pretty much any wargame you're looking at around $100.

The only thing that's really a better value is the Warpath Starter at $75, and that's precisely what they aimed for.

Want a Nintendo DS? Your buy in is significantly higher.

Want an iPod with some Apps? Significantly higher.

Perhaps you'd like to start golfing? Significantly higher.

You start by comparing starter sets, which is a logical thing to do, however, starter sets are not created equal:

Dark Vengeance: $99 USD ($74.25 @ 25% off)
Includes: Rulebook, templates and dice. Models for 2 factions: ~750 points for DA, ~550 points for Chaos. Standard game size 1500 points - 1850 points.
The DV starter does not contain legal models for STANDARD play, as the DA side contains too many HQs and not enough Troops. Contents are unbalanced and meant for scenario play. Codex required for play outside the starter box.

Warmachine / Hordes 2 Player Starter: $99 USD ($74.25 @ 25% off)
Includes: Rulebook, templates, dice. Models for 2 factions: ~20 points for Khador, ~22 points for Menoth. Standard game size 35 points to 50 points.
Paper templates included, but plastic templates highly recommended for STANDARD play. Army book is optional.

Warpath Starter: $75 USD ($60 @ Warstore - 25% discount is not unlikely.)
Includes: Rulebook, templates, dice. Models for 2 factions: ??? points, ??? points. Standard game size is ??? points.
??? Army Book. ??? Standard Play.

Nintendo DS: Not a miniature wargame 2 player starter box.

iPod with Apps: Not a miniature wargame 2 player starter box.

Golf: Not a miniature wargame 2 player starter box.

While you are comparing totally unrelated things... why not compare playing with marbles, or super-car racing? How about Yachting?

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

Yea, and those are not-so-great AOBR Ork models. To me it doesn't say much when the affordability option is to buy lower quality models on the secondary market. You can reduce your entry cost into any system doing stuff like that.

Edit: Shizz, Sean already said it. I should read the remaining posts before replying, shouldn't I.

P.S. Sean, you did it to me again!