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pax_imperialis wrote:
I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?

Not sure about the Dawn of War part, but yes. Sales declined, so in order to make up for it, prices increased. Which causes more sales decline and more price increases

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?

Not sure about the Dawn of War part, but yes. Sales declined, so in order to make up for it, prices increased. Which causes more sales decline and more price increases

Sales dropped because the LotR bubble popped. DoW has pretty much been an attraction to the game, not a deterrent.

Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

Sega Genesis was the best console of all time, 16 bit, it did what the Nintendon't!

It seems to be the trend these days, GW vs. PP, Xbox Vs Ps3, PC versus console, Apple Vs Android. There is not a subject where some fanboys start to rage because they see your opinion as a grave heresy! Burn the witch!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Honesty thought he dig between consoles and phones is kinda a misnomer. All the phones work well. Consoles all play great games. They all cost about the same.

The issue at hand is perceived value for your money with GW products. We tend not to look at the cost and quality of their paints, hobby tools ect and focus on the big stuff. The fact is the game is more and the rules are weak. It sucks but it's the truth. At the end if the day it's sad but true Nd maybe one day it will get better and the value will be there. Until then I am glad there are other games to feed my addiction.

People are ultimately afraid that a rival game will wipe out their favorite game.

Personally, I am a big fan of PP. But I also like GW stuff. But I want PP to completely and utterly dominate GW - stomp it into the ground, and see 40k as something like 4th or 5th on the national sales charts behind Privateer Press, Wyrd, and Corvis Belli.

Because its only when GW actually sees a serious threat of not holding their market share that we'll see real changes that will make the game accessible and well balanced again. We need companies that do have a heavy rules ethos and a fairly aggressive balancing schedule to crush GW before they're going to admit that rules actually are important.

I am a fan of GW, but I'm also a realist about what needs to happen for them to improve. And if that means pushing people away from 40k in favor of Malifaux, Warmachines / Hordes, Flames of War, and Infinity for a while, then so be it. The rapidly increasing prices only help to make the other options much more attractive - enough so that I actually expect we may see Necromunda and Mordenheim get a push in the next few years as GW watches Malifaux and Infinity continue to take bites out of their market share.

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

I'd like to think their players are fine with standing on the sidelines and watch as PP and GW fans go at it, chuckling as they go back to play with their toy soldiers.

For what it's worth, FoW's got enough problems trying to hold off the Grognards in the Historicals community. I don't think it needs to go waging a two-front war against GW as well.

 Surtur wrote:

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?

Not sure about the Dawn of War part, but yes. Sales declined, so in order to make up for it, prices increased. Which causes more sales decline and more price increases

Sales dropped because the LotR bubble popped. DoW has pretty much been an attraction to the game, not a deterrent.

Not to get off topic too much (pardon my meandering mods), but 2004 was the high point for GW. That year they had £151.8 million in total sales. The final movie of the LotR trilogy came out in the middle of that FY for GW (it was December of 2003). The first DoW game came out in the fall of 2005 (I think October...though it might have been late September). The 2005 FY already showed a drop in sales of £15 million - the entirety of that FY would have been without DoW (and without a LotR movie to help prop up sales of those figures). Sales continued to drop until 2007 where they hit £109.5m. What is interesting about all of that is that in 2002, they had sales of £108.6m - the first LotR movie was released halfway through that FY. It is eerily close to the post LotR sales figures.

Since that low point in 2007, sales figures have increased somewhat, with a large jump in 2009 FY (from £110.3 in 2008 to £125.7 in 2009). 2008 FY saw the release of Dark Heresy RPG. 2009 saw the release of DoW:II in the early part of the year. Since 2009 - GW sales have been fairly flat (£126.5 in 2010, £123.1 in 2011 and £131.0 in 2012).

Prices had been fairly constant throughout most of the LotR period (both up and down - though there was a spike in 2003 IIRC). Since 2009 though (though the hike was in Calender year 2008), there have been significant price hikes on a yearly basis (just for a point of reference, battleforces went from $90 or so in 2008 to $105-125 now...they were all the same price IIRC).

GW would like to think they ARE the hobby but the fact is they are probably losing more ground all the time. Poor quality, their lack of community care and high prices all driving customers to other more attractive alternatives

To Paraphrase Princess Leia Organa

"Games Workshop, only you could be so bold. The gaming community will not sit still for this. The more you raise your prices the more hobbyists will slip though your fingers."

@ Sean

I have the 2011GW trade price change index. What is shown here, as an example, the chaos, Space marine, and Tau battle force bax sets went from $90 US Dollars to $110 US Dollars a +22% increase from 2010 to 2011.

The price increase have accelerated in recent years. This is not the usual 10% increase per year we are talking about anymore. The other aspect are the changes in product build such as the increase of the amount of product line being scheduled for release. Or how interlocked the product line is being made. Such as the new flyer codex.

GW would like to think they ARE the hobby but the fact is they are probably losing more ground all the time. Poor quality, their lack of community care and high prices all driving customers to other more attractive alternatives

To Paraphrase Princess Leia Organa

"Games Workshop, only you could be so bold. The gaming community will not sit still for this. The more you raise your prices the more hobbyists will slip though your fingers."

Which is to me what is happening. The older customer base is leaving faster than they are able to replace them.

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

I think he might actually believe those are better games

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Wayshuba wrote:
...snip...
Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.
...snip...

What amuses me most about this is that the historicals you mentioned are all written/run by ex-GW staff (as far as I understand it, FoW was even offered to GW but declined because kids aren't into historicals). Imagine what'd have happened if they'd stayed in house, or how GW will cope if they are losing all of their talent.

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Herzlos wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
...snip...
Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.
...snip...

What amuses me most about this is that the historicals you mentioned are all written/run by ex-GW staff (as far as I understand it, FoW was even offered to GW but declined because kids aren't into historicals). Imagine what'd have happened if they'd stayed in house, or how GW will cope if they are losing all of their talent.

Well, GW did close down the historical branch not long after launching WAB 2.0 which has a stunning rulebook.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was one of the last straws that got Rick Priestley to leave.

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Makes sense.
Warmachine - Windows
Warhammer - Mac
Other stuff - Linux

I would have assumed Warhammer was windows but who cares really

Yea, Warhammer is windows, Warmachine is Mac... this line of thought has the potential to go downhill fast.

Mantic is android?

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Funny you should say that - I've heard someone say that they couldn't go back to playing 40k again after Infinity, as it felt like playing a 16-bit version of a game after playing something on a Playstation or N64.

Although that's clearly nonsense as I have to say there is stuff on the SNES and Megadrive that still kicks ass even today I would liken it more to a different type of experience. A better analogy might be food: 40k is like guzzling a litre of coke, with fries, a big hamburger then topping it all off with a mega pack of chips/snacks. Infinity is more like a finely prepared gourmet meal, where some overpaid chef has spent 10 minutes agonising over where to place the carrot shavings on the Peruvian mountain goat cheese and spinach sauce. You can spend time savouring and enjoying each measured bite, looking at it and appreciating the effort and artistry involved in bringing you such culinary perfection.

But on the other hand, sometimes you just want to ram a pile of sweating, greasy carbs straight into your face, down the litre of coke, and then release a fog-horn of a belch afterwards despite feeling like a dirty bastard afterwards for doing so.

 Pacific wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Funny you should say that - I've heard someone say that they couldn't go back to playing 40k again after Infinity, as it felt like playing a 16-bit version of a game after playing something on a Playstation or N64.

Although that's clearly nonsense as I have to say there is stuff on the SNES and Megadrive that still kicks ass even today I would liken it more to a different type of experience. A better analogy might be food: 40k is like guzzling a litre of coke, with fries, a big hamburger then topping it all off with a mega pack of chips/snacks. Infinity is more like a finely prepared gourmet meal, where some overpaid chef has spent 10 minutes agonising over where to place the carrot shavings on the Peruvian mountain goat cheese and spinach sauce. You can spend time savouring and enjoying each measured bite, looking at it and appreciating the effort and artistry involved in bringing you such culinary perfection.

But on the other hand, sometimes you just want to ram a pile of sweating, greasy carbs straight into your face, down the litre of coke, and then release a fog-horn of a belch afterwards despite feeling like a dirty bastard afterwards for doing so.

I don't think Infinity is that kind of food because peruvian mountain goat cheese, gourmet meal and overpaid chef will cost more than playing 40k.... that mean Infinity will cost more than GW.... The indy wargamming are like sushi and Warhammer stuff are like good hot dog stand.

Everyone is talking about rules here and now, but does anyone think that part of the popularity is the fact that of those "big 3 or 4" and not including historicals, GW is making the most appealing kits?

I'd rather buy their multi part plastics than most of the Warmachine or Hordes kits, simply because they're plastic and have options. I've refused to buy the Trollblood Sluggers because there were only 3 sculpts in the 5 man box.

You've got to remember that for plenty of people, the rules are secondary or tertiary and the building and painting and collecting are the main reasons they're in the hobby.

If Privateer came out with a multipart plastic kit for an infantry unit like the Winterguard, they'd sell a metric gak-ton of them. And not to just Warmachine players. However, they're content with using metal and restic, and their restic was, at least initially, pretty poor. The kits have gotten better, but they certainly weren't up to the standards of the GW multipart plastics released at similar times.

And now Wyrd is stepping up to the plate and releasing high quality plastic kits. IMO, they're not AS good as the GW (the detail seems to be less defined, and some of cuts made to get a model on the sprue are...interesting) but I'd rather work with them than the Privateer Models. At this point in wargaming history, there are just a lot of people that want uniqueness to their models but don't want the hassle of converting metal. Despite some of the very real pitfalls, this was one of the primary benefits of Finecast.

And that's really, IMO, the only shortcoming of Infinity. Great models. Great rules, but man.... I hate dealing with the big chunks of metal in the larger models. If they moved some of those to resin, they'd be golden.

Again, I think we have to consider that for many people the rules aren't at the forefront of what they're looking for. In that respect, the cost per model really is applicable, regardless of how many you need to play.

 cincydooley wrote:
Everyone is talking about rules here and now, but does anyone think that part of the popularity is the fact that of those "big 3 or 4" and not including historicals, GW is making the most appealing kits?

I'd rather buy their multi part plastics than most of the Warmachine or Hordes kits, simply because they're plastic and have options. I've refused to buy the Trollblood Sluggers because there were only 3 sculpts in the 5 man box.

You've got to remember that for plenty of people, the rules are secondary or tertiary and the building and painting and collecting are the main reasons they're in the hobby.

If Privateer came out with a multipart plastic kit for an infantry unit like the Winterguard, they'd sell a metric gak-ton of them. And not to just Warmachine players. However, they're content with using metal and restic, and their restic was, at least initially, pretty poor. The kits have gotten better, but they certainly weren't up to the standards of the GW multipart plastics released at similar times.

And now Wyrd is stepping up to the plate and releasing high quality plastic kits. IMO, they're not AS good as the GW (the detail seems to be less defined, and some of cuts made to get a model on the sprue are...interesting) but I'd rather work with them than the Privateer Models. At this point in wargaming history, there are just a lot of people that want uniqueness to their models but don't want the hassle of converting metal. Despite some of the very real pitfalls, this was one of the primary benefits of Finecast.

And that's really, IMO, the only shortcoming of Infinity. Great models. Great rules, but man.... I hate dealing with the big chunks of metal in the larger models. If they moved some of those to resin, they'd be golden.

Again, I think we have to consider that for many people the rules aren't at the forefront of what they're looking for. In that respect, the cost per model really is applicable, regardless of how many you need to play.

This is a major part of why I still keep coming back to Games Workshop myself. I, along with my GF, have decided to expand back into WM/H, but for me nothing could beat the new Deathwing kits. I love them. I love how they look. I love the gak-ton of bits that come with them extra (already planning on kitbashing other squads with them). I love the FW stuff too. My Cataphractii Terminators are beautiful sculpts and I keep dreamily staring at Contemptor Dreads as I so badly want one done up in Deathwing colors.

At the same time, there are some nice sculpts on the PP side of the pond. They're just rougher to put together and less friendly to conversion.

It was rather amusing this weekend when I was subjected to a rant about how plastic is gak and I shouldn't be using it if I was a real modeller/painter and THAT was one of GW's flaws in production (really, of all the things to kvetch about, their plastics are the best of the plastic using miniature companies). I just don't get it sometimes, I guess. But I don't mind. I'll enjoy my Deathwing terminators AND I'll enjoy my Knights Exemplar.

hellpato wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Funny you should say that - I've heard someone say that they couldn't go back to playing 40k again after Infinity, as it felt like playing a 16-bit version of a game after playing something on a Playstation or N64.

Although that's clearly nonsense as I have to say there is stuff on the SNES and Megadrive that still kicks ass even today I would liken it more to a different type of experience. A better analogy might be food: 40k is like guzzling a litre of coke, with fries, a big hamburger then topping it all off with a mega pack of chips/snacks. Infinity is more like a finely prepared gourmet meal, where some overpaid chef has spent 10 minutes agonising over where to place the carrot shavings on the Peruvian mountain goat cheese and spinach sauce. You can spend time savouring and enjoying each measured bite, looking at it and appreciating the effort and artistry involved in bringing you such culinary perfection.

But on the other hand, sometimes you just want to ram a pile of sweating, greasy carbs straight into your face, down the litre of coke, and then release a fog-horn of a belch afterwards despite feeling like a dirty bastard afterwards for doing so.

I don't think Infinity is that kind of food because peruvian mountain goat cheese, gourmet meal and overpaid chef will cost more than playing 40k.... that mean Infinity will cost more than GW.... The indy wargamming are like sushi and Warhammer stuff are like good hot dog stand.

Warhammer is fondue. It costs a lot, but really, you're just eating hot cheese.

Herzlos wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
...snip...
Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.
...snip...

What amuses me most about this is that the historicals you mentioned are all written/run by ex-GW staff (as far as I understand it, FoW was even offered to GW but declined because kids aren't into historicals). Imagine what'd have happened if they'd stayed in house, or how GW will cope if they are losing all of their talent.

Actually I think it is more than that. Warlord Games was started by two ex GWers. So they have wrapped up the whole package - well done rules, by experienced designers, gorgeous books (for a normal price), regular miniature releases (at sane prices), etc.

Also, in speaking with those at my FLGS, the main reasons the historicals have taken off - 1.) GW rules haven't moved in ages, they just change things to sell models and third edition was better than current one, 2.) the new army books (and prices) seem to be the real kicker that has turned people off when coupled with the new model prices (though everyone laughs at the ludicrous pricing on the core rulebooks as well) and 3.) quite frankly, the historicals in the last few years have really had some quality and marketing put behind them to make them less niche and more mainstream.

So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

It's not gonna put me out, I'll shell out the bucks because I love playing Warhammer, as long as I got a place to live and food to eat, my job is decent enough to allow me to afford GW prices still. Although, I do agree, they are pretty bad.. but most of the time I just order from miniature market. 25% off.