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Personally, I think GW struck gold with the collectors editions.

1) Its a well known fact that there are is a certain subset of nerds who will fork out for limited/collectors edition anything.

2) As long as it comes with *something* extra/different, those nerds will buy it.

GW could have put the price up to $1000 for the privilege of getting a limited edition black-and-white paperback rulebook, and they would still sell out.

Trasvi wrote:
Personally, I think GW struck gold with the collectors editions.

1) Its a well known fact that there are is a certain subset of nerds who will fork out for limited/collectors edition anything.

2) As long as it comes with *something* extra/different, those nerds will buy it.

GW could have put the price up to $1000 for the privilege of getting a limited edition black-and-white paperback rulebook, and they would still sell out.

It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.

Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.

It amuses me Azreal that in the same sentence that you call me a white knight you tell me to respect other peoples opinions. How about this, how about I call people on their rampant GW hate and you people call me a white knight, we'll call it a fair trade. As for Ravenous, it wasn't meant as a personal attack it was meant as an observation since I recall seeing a few posts by ravenous stating that he/she has not purchased GW products in years. As I can't get the search function to go past more recent posts I can't link to the ones I read this in so I'll fully admit I may be mistaken or misunderstood but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.

Seriously, Get over it.

Orktavius wrote:
Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.

It amuses me Azreal that in the same sentence that you call me a white knight you tell me to respect other peoples opinions. How about this, how about I call people on their rampant GW hate and you people call me a white knight, we'll call it a fair trade. As for Ravenous, it wasn't meant as a personal attack it was meant as an observation since I recall seeing a few posts by ravenous stating that he/she has not purchased GW products in years. As I can't get the search function to go past more recent posts I can't link to the ones I read this in so I'll fully admit I may be mistaken or misunderstood but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.

Seriously, Get over it.

Ward? Is that you?

Wow, I can't believe that thing is $150. I think if I see that in the GW store I might burst out laughing.

With collector's editions, I think in general the idea is to include things that someone might like. For example, they often come with behind the scenes type stuff showing you the making of the whatever it is or lovely, well-printed pictures of the concept art. The Halo 2: Pencil Tin Edition, for instance, had a making of DVD type deal, a pretty little book about the races of Halo, stuff like that.

A dust cover (I can only cringe at imagining how long that'd take to rip jostling around in a bag going to play somewhere) and a certificate of shame doesn't really seem like an exclusive bonus that should cost more.

I think if they brought out a new Tyranid codex for $83/$150 (for added certificate) then I'd feel morally obliged to spend that money on a different game instead rather than encouraging them. Even if I really, really want Assault Grenades.

$150! Wow.

Edit to note: the regular Codex is $83, not $100. Not sure how much more fantastic that is...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.

<< I'm in Australia. My FLGS still has 4 copies of the limited edition DV on the shelves (let alone out the back...)

Trasvi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.

<< I'm in Australia. My FLGS still has 4 copies of the limited edition DV on the shelves (let alone out the back...)

6 copies of Crusade of fire at my local GW, there were still DV sets on the shelves up until recently when they were recalled and replaced with regular ones, I haven't been in there all that much latley but I was in there the first day they were open after Christmas and it was packed, still didn't see a single limited ed Hobbit box sell.

My FLGS hasn't sold the one Hobbit box they were forced to get, they still have all 3 copies of crusade of fire they got and last I checked the DV box was the limited one.

Orktavius wrote:
Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.

It's not blind hatred, it's well considered hatred. Also I didn't call you a white knight, I hate the term, it's an excuse to not form a proper argument. Perhaps you could address your arguments toward specific people instead of just ranting out in general (blind hatred much?).

it wasn't meant as a personal attack

And yet when you say something like this, it is hard to read as anything other than an attack...

wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children

Perhaps you should take some courses in communication or anger management so you can better get your point across without sounding aggressive, condescending and attacking

Seriously, Get over it.

Perhaps you should take your own advice. There's a little "X" up in the corner of your window that can take you out of this discussion if it so offends you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.

<< I'm in Australia. My FLGS still has 4 copies of the limited edition DV on the shelves (let alone out the back...)

Yeah, I was just going off the official online store, it doesn't suprise me they haven't sold out of it in stores. If anything it shows people are more inclined to take their business international.

Orktavius wrote:
It's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.

Just because someone stops buying stuff doesn't mean they have left the hobby. I quit giving money to GW about the time finecast came out. But I still have a lot of miniatures and enjoy painting and playing, and I still collect bits off ebay. And I read about new releases.

Respect runs both ways. The problem with GW is they have a monopoly on their product, and so they do what monopolies do. Which is raise prices at the cost of customer satisfaction. That is why monopolies are usually not allowed. And so, as you can clearly see from this topic and the million others like it: They have low customer satisfaction. And it is their own fault, and they also couldn't give a gak. They don't care if people are annoyed by the price hikes, or frustrated at having to buy a whole book just to get the 3 page army list, or that the limited edition is half assed. They don't care, because their customers have nowhere else to go.

So please let us complain about GW in peace. We've all paid good money to be this dissatisfied. So let us enjoy what we've paid for.

Guys, but seriously.. the non-GW games sections and threads are thriving at the moment. Dakka has expanded them to answer demand, and they have never been busier. I spend most of my time reading the Infinity section these days, and there are usually 5-6 conversations going on there on any one day - I'm pretty sure most of the others on there are the same.

The last thing you should feel is trapped in a game system, and to the point where your enjoyment of the wargaming hobby is damaged by one company's crass behaviour, or feel like you are being held ransom to their prices. Buy a couple of sets of Infinity, download the rules for free, or a couple of fleets from Dystopian Wars. As Loki has said all you need is a couple of other guys to make the most of it, and the internet makes it easier than ever to meet other players (there are probably even players in a club near you, that you didn't even know existed).

Orktavius wrote:
Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.

It amuses me Azreal that in the same sentence that you call me a white knight you tell me to respect other peoples opinions. How about this, how about I call people on their rampant GW hate and you people call me a white knight, we'll call it a fair trade. As for Ravenous, it wasn't meant as a personal attack it was meant as an observation since I recall seeing a few posts by ravenous stating that he/she has not purchased GW products in years. As I can't get the search function to go past more recent posts I can't link to the ones I read this in so I'll fully admit I may be mistaken or misunderstood but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.

Seriously, Get over it.

woaw, i don't know what to say, maybe i can express it with a picture

Orktavius I would just leave this thread alone. If you make any post in a thread like this that isn't blind anti-GW hatred you'll get flamed and trolled, sometimes by mods. Just drop it.

GW hate you, tactical squads cost £5000, the codexes are poorly-written, GW are failing, no one plays warhammer any more, etc.

Leave this thread lest it destroy you!

Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.

can we avoid making comments like this please. It adds nothing to the conversation and does nothing except make people annoyed.

Thanks.

Orktavius wrote:
... but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago...

But GW isn't "the hobby".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
... but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago...

But GW isn't "the hobby".

It's "a hobby". Depending on context it could be "the hobby".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
... but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago...

But GW isn't "the hobby".

Lies...Lies...LIES!

There is one hobby, and GW is THE hobby.

I guess though that ends up being an opinion developed from their environment. With the number of people who seem startled that there are paints, miniatures, tools and even rules which are not GW on a regular basis, opinining that GW is the hobbby should not surprise anyone.

 BryllCream wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
... but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago...

But GW isn't "the hobby".

It's "a hobby". Depending on context it could be "the hobby".

Nope... it's just more like "a part of the hobby".

 NAVARRO wrote:

Nope... it's just more like "a part of the hobby".

Using semantics to try to turn people against GW is pretty extreme dude. I get that a lot of people don't like GW but trying to alter people's actual language in order to turn them off GW is pretty Orwellian, no?

It's my hobby. It can be *the* hobby. If you have a problem with this then good for you.

I think he's trying to point out (rightly so) that GW's attitude is now tilting towards one of pure marketing of its own products, as opposed to covering scratchbuilding, converting and painting skills in a more general way. You're right in that there's an underlying cynicism, but it's hardly a case of conspiracy.

I can buy a 10 kilo bag of playpit sand (nice and clean, ready to use for basing) and a bag of cat litter (fullers' earth) for the same cost as GW put out a tiny tub of sand.

GW sells many products in a convenient one-stop-shop at a massive premium, and attempt to brush over the fact that wargamers have been gluing sand to bases basically (no pun intended) for ever.

If your hobby is painting GW toy soldiers with GW products, good luck to you; but you are deliberately limiting your options as far as the greater modelling / mini painting / wargaming hobby goes.

Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.

I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.

 BryllCream wrote:
Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.

I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.

Mliking vets is a part of the hobby?

It's certainly the hobby of GW managment XD

 BryllCream wrote:
Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.

I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.

Does not annoy me a bit I just find it inaccurate...

As Winterdyne pointed out.... if you like painting GW minis you are inside the wider painting minis hobby, if you like to play with the GW minis or core games your inside the wargaming hobby, if you like sculpting GW minis you are inside the sculpting hobby etc...

This is not turning anyone against GW this is pointing out that GW is just part of the overall wargaming hobby and if you pick x wargaming company products you are included in the that wider wargaming hobby... Its not even semantics.

If you like to surf with just quicksilver boards is your hobby quicksilver surfing or simply surfing?

So in short I don't care how GW marketing department twists reality to sell their stuff ( its their job) and I'm not annoyed by people who believe in that ( it's their call) I'm just pointing out that I find that claim inaccurate.

 jonolikespie wrote:

My FLGS hasn't sold the one Hobbit box they were forced to get, .

That's a shame. It really is quite the nice boxed set.

Personally, i'm not always convinced that ANY special edition is that worth it, but honestly, I'm more abt to pick up a "collectors edition" book than video game. All those trinkets just end up becoming clutter in my home, unfortunately. I WANTED the gears 3 Super Special collectors edition that came with the COG flag, but when my wife asked, "where are you going to hang it" and I said "In the 2nd bedroom," I was greeted by the "bitch please" look.

Last collectors edition I purchased was Arkham City for the bitchin Kotobukia Batman Statuette. Nice and small and easy to hide on a bookshelf. Just like a collectors edition book.

No one in this thread should be making personal attacks to the other side, forums have always been (way back to the Romans) a marketplace of ideas. The people that check/read dakkadakka all have a common bond, and even those with disagreeing views have more in common than the other vast majority of humans, if for no other reason than they enjoy contributing to the exact same mental back and forth, on the exact same topics you do.

This is one thread in a vast quilt of conversation, and it's subject happens to be related directly to prices and GW. It's not to bash GW. However, one could get that impression from the pages and pages of facts, personal experiences, and comparisons which all show the darker sides of a hobby we all care for (in our own ways). If you arnt ready to come to grips with this, or you have made a personal decision to ignore or justify it, then of course he will resort to attacking the speaker instead rebutting the ideas he presents.

Personally it reeks of the Dunning-Kruger effect (:

*EDIT* For the same of completion ill just google that and toss the wiki definition below and relate that the skill in this case is "Judging GW's prices relative to other manufacturers"

The hypothesized phenomenon was tested in a series of experiments performed by Dunning and Kruger.[2][7] Dunning and Kruger noted earlier studies suggesting that ignorance of standards of performance is behind a great deal of incompetence. This pattern was seen in studies of skills as diverse as reading comprehension, operating a motor vehicle, and playing chess or tennis.

Dunning and Kruger proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, IF they are exposed to training for that skill.
Dunning has since drawn an analogy ("the anosognosia of everyday life")[1][8] with a condition in which a person who suffers a physical disability because of brain injury seems unaware of or denies the existence of the disability, even for dramatic impairments such as blindness or paralysis.

Gamesworkshop provide a network of stores (in the UK) to support the hobby generally, its a massive overhead. They have better development and miniature support than anyother company or system and when you compare miniature prices they are comparable if not better. I'm not comparing GW minis with poorly detailed knock-offs that are available. (Hiding a price hike when the fine cast came out was a bit silly.)

I think some of the other elements they sell are massively overpriced; an example of sand was given in a previous post. But they have to make a profit to keep them going and it is plain that other companies and systems have benefited from them introducing people into the hobby. I don't think you can grumble too much when they re-trench and focus to ensure the future of their company.

Of course they are going to cut down on modelling articles, they don't sell the stuff used to model (plasticard, foam, bit and bobs lying about the house) and would take away sales from their range of buildings and battle terrain.

 Jasper wrote:
Gamesworkshop provide a network of stores (in the UK) to support the hobby generally, its a massive overhead. They have better development and miniature support than anyother company or system and when you compare miniature prices they are comparable if not better. I'm not comparing GW minis with poorly detailed knock-offs that are available. (Hiding a price hike when the fine cast came out was a bit silly.)

That network of stores muscled a ton of independent stored from my understanding and with the current 1 man store approach they do not support the hobby, they drag in kids who are not going to still be playing in a year and that's about it, and if a store is not profitable it is shut down, therefore I am not sure how the overhead argument stands up. Yes they do have better development and minuter support, but they are the worst when it comes to prices.
Comparing GW to poorly detailed knock offs isn't fair, but these days there are more and more independent bits makers are on the same level as GW when it comes to detail. And then there are the other games which are making their own models on par with or better than GW and still selling them for much cheaper.

 Jasper wrote:
I think some of the other elements they sell are massively overpriced; an example of sand was given in a previous post. But they have to make a profit to keep them going and it is plain that other companies and systems have benefited from them introducing people into the hobby. I don't think you can grumble too much when they re-trench and focus to ensure the future of their company.

Sand is not what they are making a profit on. They control they entire process from getting their hands on the raw materials to putting the box in your hand and taking your money (or at least they try to, sometimes however they are forced to sell to independent stores). They would be making those tactical boxes for a couple of dollars each, that is where there profit should be coming from, the price of their paints, basing materials, glues, brushes and all that is just them trying to squeeze that little bit extra out of you.
Other companies have benefited from them introducing people to the hobby sure, because GW had the monopoly. It is the biggest so it draws in the most people. It also drives them away after they start noticing the gak they pull and those people then move on to other systems. As for ensuring the future of their company, that is a joke. Kirby is running the thing into the ground by focusing on short term profits so he can retire that little bit richer just before it crashes and burns.

 Jasper wrote:
Of course they are going to cut down on modelling articles, they don't sell the stuff used to model (plasticard, foam, bit and bobs lying about the house) and would take away sales from their range of buildings and battle terrain.

From a business standpoint that does make perfect sense, I wont argue that, but why is it in white dwarf I can see a pic of a really amazing table built entirely from modular GW kits but I can't get a step by step guide? It is not so much that they have stopped telling us how to make terrain without buying their stuff, it is that they have stopped telling us how to make terrain. Period. They have no interest in the hobby side of things anymore, they just want to sell you a realm of battle board, a box or two of terrain and call it done.

I keep reading this "Dragging kids into the store that won't stick with it" argument and it confuses me.

I don't think I've ever seen someone that wasn't in their 20s or older in the local GW. At the LGS, I RARELY see anyone that isn't in their 20s, and when I do, its almost exclusively for CCGs....

Is the patron demographic in the UK and Oz really that different than the US? Does anyone else have similar experiences, or is Cincy just an 'older' market?

In Norway the demographics is very young. So young that i in my late 20's feel embarrassed to go into the gw shops. In the US where I live now, it seems to be slightly older, and most people are in their 20s. Depends what day you go as well.

I had a discussion at our club with a younger member this week, it opened my eyes to a mindset I haven't previously encountered, and if its widespread enough, will mean GW can continue on their path for some time.

His response to my assertion that they're too expensive?

"I don't care how much they charge, because I only spend spare money on it, so it doesn't matter."

I discontinued the discussion rather than get embroiled in the massive flaws in that statement, but if that's the attitude of a significant enough percentage of the customer base, they're on easy street.