Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

People kept bringing up pask in our other thread, so I wanted to make, yes, another thread about pask. I don't know if we've had this discussion since russes became heavy, so I wanted to bring it up again.

When is it okay to spend the huge points cost for pask nowadays?

To prime the pump, here are some initial opinions:

LRBT - Pask doesn't seem to be a great option here, fluff reasons aside. Against vehicles, you're still dealing with a one-shot weapon with Ap3, which means you're still stuck peeling off hull points, something which pask doesn't help THAT much with except for against the heaviest targets. Plus, all the hull weapons snap fire, which wastes pask's +BS.

Exterminator - a popular choice before, this seems even better now. I'm not the biggest fan of the strip hull points way of killing vehicles, but even I've got to admit the quality of 3.5 S8 attacks per turn. This would allow an exterminator to even be effective against tanks up to AV12, an armor value the exerminator traditionally struggles with. That said, you're already putting the hurt on lesser tanks with this russ, is pask really necessary?

Vanquisher - we all know that codex vanquishers stink, but pask seems to be a real dark-horse option here. The main problem with vanquishers is their crappy BS with a one-shot weapon, which pask directly fixes. The second biggest problem is armor penetration, which 9+2D6 seems to do a fair bit better. It's still only Ap2, but you're pretty likely to be rolling on that damage table. What really makes this deal worthwhile, though, is the chance at a BS4 S10 lascannon, which seems deceptively good. S9 multimeltas wouldn't be bad either. Does this make the vanquisher worth taking, I don't know, but this appears to be the place where pask makes the tank better commensurate to the increase in cost.

Eradicator - probably a big pass. The big gun isn't going to be doing much anyways, and pask just makes it a glorified autocannon. He can make the hull weapons better, but if you're taking a las-melta eradicator with pask, you're paying a LOT of points for what only starts becoming useful (anti-vehicle-wise) at a somewhat short range.

Demolisher - This seems one of the worst places to take pask. Not only does pask's best ability only work when you're sitting still (not likely with a demolisher), but come on, are you really having a problem with S10 ordnance against vehicles? Plus, all the hull weapons snap fire, which wastes pask's +BS.

Punisher - Once again, this seems crummy. The BS4 is going to help against infantry, though, at least, and pask DOES allow you to hideously glance AV12 do death... provided you didn't move... with a 24" gun. Hmm...

Executioner - I suppose this makes this tank a HELL of a monstrous creature killer, what with rerollable-to-wound S7 Ap2. The problem is that against pretty much everything else, you might as well take a pask exterminator for way fewer points. After all, a pask executioner gets REALLY expensive.

Anyways, pask at all? Pask outside of exterminator or vanquisher?

It depends on what you want, I guess. Something to kill heavy tanks (Or wipe that annoying beat stick SC from the table) or something to destroy light armor and heavy infantry. It's all what you are lacking in your list... and to be honest, I'd take the Exterminator since you do have plenty of AT in your army.

The pask vanquisher just sounds nasty, maybe squadroned with another Vanquisher with just a lascannon to give pask's the chance to survive the whole game. Maybe even behind an aegis. Would be expensive but maybe worth a try.

One of my regular IG opponents is a huge fan of the pasksquisher, The last tournament at my FLGS had two of these, just hull lascannon. As you said, a bs4 S10(against armor)lascannon is insane.

Another build I have seen is pask in a punisher bolter boated with a heavy stubber. Thing absolutely massacres infantry, and is surprisingly effective against an MC. The rear armor 11 helps to protect your investment in pask.

The exterminator with a hull lascannon+pask also gets nasty.

I would never put Pask in any russ using a blast weapon. The extra BS is meh, and plasma can get hot on tanks, risking your expensive investment.

Pask is overpriced. 50 points for a +1 BS and sometimes +1 armor piercing? I'd rather have a ten man infantry squad

Pask isn't an upgrade I'd ever take. I'm never relying on one vehicle so much for that game that paying 50 points for a BS upgrade seems worth it.

So, I was doing some thinking at work, and came up with a few numbers. They're a touch crude, me not having access to a calculator, but the results were interesting.

So, for comparison, we have 2 HWSs with 5 lascannons, a vanquisher with just a hull lascannon, a vanquisher with a hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas, and a vanquisher with a hull lascannon and pask. Here, I'm comparing them to AV12 and 13, respectively.

LC HWSs - .425, .275
No MM Vq - .24, .165
MM Vanq - .41, .25
Pasquish - .365, .31

The first thing to look at is the las/MM vanquisher compared to its points in lascannons. Against these target types, the two put out almost identical damage. Of course, you have a weapon slot free to add a 6th lascannon with the HWS, but the russ won't blow away like a fart on the wind either.

The tricky thing, though, is getting those multimeltas in range. The above calculation was assuming that the shot was in range, but not in melta range (so, the tank starting 30"-18" away from its target). If you can get in real close, you can do horrendous damage relative to HWSs, but, of course, if they're out of range, then the tank drops to the no MM stats, which are terrible beyond reason.

Which is where pask comes in. Compared to a vanquisher not in MM range (or that doesn't have them equipped), Pask brings a +50% boost to killing power against AV12, and a +100% killing power boost to AV13, all for costing less than 33% of the price of the tank. Plus, you lose half the bonus if you move around, but this tank's killing power is all up-front, and at range.

And that's what really makes pask worth it here - you're paying for a better alpha strike. The multimelta option may be better defensively, when your opponent is running stuff into your multimeltas, but pask is the better offensive weapon, being able to fish for first blood with much, much greater ease. Plus, it's not like Pask is BAD in close ranges either.

The thing that does make me a bit leery, though, is that despite hitting more, you still have fewer guns. While this doesn't matter for tanks, it rather does against things like terminators, and, to only a slightly lesser extent, monstrous creatures. You're pretty much sinking your points into your opponents bringing vehicles.

A few other things came up that were kind of interesting as well. It turns out that a S10 BS4 lascannon has exactly the same damage profile as a S8 BS3 +D6 vanquisher cannon. With pask, you're literally bringing two vanquisher cannons, one of which then gets an upgrade.

Another interesting thing is to see the split between the pasquisher and the lascannons. The lascannons get a slight boost at AV12, and obviously do lower armor better, while pask beats out the lascannons at AV13, and obviously does much better against AV14. In any case, against vehicles at least, a pasquisher is worth its points cost in HWS lascannons, which is really making me reconsider taking a vanquisher. That much killing power with that much durability? Hmm...

I have been playing a campaign, 2500 points a game. Pask in a vanquisher has been in most list just because its a long range melta gun without the ap...and a fun change to the other guard players

Saw a guy take an Executioner with him in it the other day.

Overkill, thy name is pask. I swear that tank must've cost like a 3rd of the guy's points

Also, 5 S8 plasma blasts and a S10 lascannon is just hilarious to watch in action.

I might have missed something, but isn't a lascannon Str9?

If the tank with pask in it stayed stationary then it adds +1 to the strength of all shots fired from the tank for the purposes of armor penetration, or when firing at monstrous creatures Pask allows you rerolls to wound.

IMO, if you're willing to accept the "all your eggs in one basket" problem at all:

LRBT: not worth it. BS 4 only means 1" less scatter on the main gun while your secondary weapons still snap fire, and even a "STR 9" battle cannon is a mediocre anti-tank/MC weapon.

Demolisher: not worth it. You have to move too often to make good use of the armor penetration bonus, and, like the LRBT, BS 4 doesn't add very much.

Erradicator: not worth it. You get to use BS 4 effectively with your secondary weapons, but the turret weapon still gets nothing (even less than the LRBT, since it's not even a viable anti-vehicle/MC weapon).

Conqueror: not worth it. It's a garbage tank without Pask, due to the lack of the Heavy rule and a joke of a main gun. Pask just makes it a more expensive garbage tank.



Exterminator: possibly worth it. "STR 8" ACs are obviously good, especially with a 90% hit rate, but I'm kind of skeptical about an expensive upgrade on a tank where the main appeal is that it's cheap and efficient.

Annihilator: possibly worth it. "STR 10" LCs with good accuracy, but like the Exterminator is it really a good idea to buy Pask for a tank where the main appeal is that it's the cheapest Leman Russ? On the other hand, an Annihilator with Pask is cheaper than any other Pask option, so it's less of an "all your eggs in one basket" problem.



Vanquisher: worth it. BS 4 helps your fatal accuracy problem (especially now that the coax heavy stubber is no longer an option), and extra strength anti-tank weapons on a dedicated anti-tank unit is obviously a good thing. The main drawback is that the Pask Vanquisher competes with the Armored Battlegroup HQ Vanquisher, which is arguably a better tank overall.

Punisher: worth it. If you're going to take a Punisher at all, Pask's BS 4 helps every weapon on the tank, and the penetration/wound bonus makes it into a viable threat against light vehicles and MCs. And since it's such an expensive tank already Pask's 50 point cost is percentage-wise equal or less than the increase in firepower from BS 4.

Executioner: worth it. BS 4 might not be game-changing with blast templates, but at least you get it for the sponsons and hull gun. And "STR 8" plasma shots make it a legitimate vehicle killer. Sure, it's expensive compared to the same STR 8 on the Exterminator, but AP 2 does nice things for your kill rate against vehicles and MCs, and the blasts can massacre MEQs/TEQs if you get a good chance.

I run the bolter boat exterminator and love it. No one expects strength "8" auto cannons and strength "5" heavy bolters.

I think Peregrine pretty much nailed it. I hadn't thought of putting Pask on an Executioner (since the additional BS is of so little value to a blast weapon), but plasma's AP2 only helps you if you get to the damage table -- and the additional point of strength helps you get there. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable putting a 300 point vehicle on the field, but I'd imagine it would certainly get results.

Edit: The real takeaway here is that if you're taking Punishers and you haven't taken Pask, you're probably doing it wrong. Paying 25% more to increase your tank's effective firepower by 50% before crack shot? Well worth it.

Well, the upgrade to BS4 only increases its hits by a third, not by half. It's still not a terrible value, costing less than a third more, but still...

I think my biggest problem here is with the crack shot. I mean, really, how much are you getting to use that on such a short range tank that has to remain stationary?

 Ailaros wrote:
I think my biggest problem here is with the crack shot. I mean, really, how much are you getting to use that on such a short range tank that has to remain stationary?

You're looking at it the wrong way. Instead of starting from "I will take Pask" and looking for a tank that maximizes his benefits you should be asking yourself "do I want to include Pask in my list, and, if so, which of my tanks should I upgrade". You don't need to maximize every benefit Pask offers, you just need to gain enough that paying for Pask is justified. In that case Pask in a Punisher is worth it because it's a 33% increase in firepower for less than a 33% increase in points, and the crack shot rule is just a nice bonus that occasionally might make a difference.

And don't forget that even if the main gun is out of range you still have the sponsons and hull gun. For example, if there aren't any good infantry targets and the highest priority is a Land Raider full of nasty things you still have a STR 10 AP 2 shot at BS 4 from the hull LC, and with 48" range you don't need to move (though you may sacrifice next turn's shooting if you don't move into an ideal position to set it up).

Hmm, so is the idea that you should always take pask if you are already bringing a tank that can benefit properly from him?

I guess it's just so automatic to think along the lines of "I'm bringing THAT pask tank", rather than thinking of pask as a more independent upgrade.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, the upgrade to BS4 only increases its hits by a third, not by half. It's still not a terrible value, costing less than a third more, but still...

Augh. And this is why I shouldn't post past midnight. Thanks for the correction all the same. (I believe I was thinking of twin-linking...)

 Ailaros wrote:
Hmm, so is the idea that you should always take pask if you are already bringing a tank that can benefit properly from him?

Perhaps, with just a little reminder in the back of your head that you can trim 50 points off if you have to.

 Ailaros wrote:
Hmm, so is the idea that you should always take pask if you are already bringing a tank that can benefit properly from him?

If it's a cost-effective upgrade, and you're willing to risk that many points in a single model vs. a slightly less effective but safer strategy of taking multiple weaker units. Deciding whether to upgrade to Pask or not should be treated no differently than deciding whether to upgrade to a hull LC or add sponsons, you do the math and decide whether you get enough for your points. The only difference is that if your answer is "yes, bring Pask" for multiple tanks then you need to consider which of them gets the most advantage out of the 0-1 option.

So, for the Punisher the answer is almost always going to be "yes", unless you're afraid of the 'all your eggs in one basket' problem. Pask is cost-effective there, so the only reason not to buy the upgrade is if it's even more cost-effective on another tank in your list.

I guess it's just so automatic to think along the lines of "I'm bringing THAT pask tank", rather than thinking of pask as a more independent upgrade.

That seems to be the problem with special characters in general, too many people focus on the 'character' part and expect it to be a big deal instead of just another unit option. For example, everyone who judges Marbo by the standard of "awesome character as powerful as a 200 point marine HQ" instead of "cost-effective weapon that consistently kills its point value or better".

Forgive me for derailing the thread, but since you brought up Marbo I have to ask:

Has the interceptor rule proved a problem in fielding him? Even a quad-gun has a reasonable chance of splattering him before he can fire off his demolition charge.

And what about in a Forgeworld environment, where interceptor firepower is so much more common? Would you be less hesitant to field him there?

Peregrine wrote:If you're willing to risk that many points in a single model vs. a slightly less effective but safer strategy of taking multiple weaker units. Deciding whether to upgrade to Pask or not should be treated no differently than deciding whether to upgrade to a hull LC or add sponsons, you do the math and decide whether you get enough for your points

Hmm.

I suppose that pask is less risky than other character upgrades. With straken, for example, said points basket is only being protected by a CCS, while pask is protected by 3HP of AV14.

Corollax wrote:
Has the interceptor rule proved a problem in fielding him? Even a quad-gun has a reasonable chance of splattering him before he can fire off his demolition charge.

Not too bad, since a single infantry model is reasonably easy to hide, or at least give a good cover save to. The one time I had to bring Marbo in without LOS blocking was when I deliberately put him right behind the quad gun to draw its fire and ensure that all of my flyers made it in safely (and killed the quad gun), so it was a deliberate suicide mission.

And what about in a Forgeworld environment, where interceptor firepower is so much more common? Would you be less hesitant to field him there?

Not for such a low cost, unless I was list tailoring for a specific game where my opponent would have lots of interceptor guns. I'd drop all of the flyers from my list before I drop Marbo, since they're far more at risk from interceptor spam.



(And this is not a thread hijack. Marbo was in the OP the whole time, waiting for the right moment to strike.)

On topic: Straken might be a bad example, since 6th has added concerns like "Slay the Warlord." Perhaps Creed would be a better choice -- do you buy a second CCS and get your additional orders that way, or do you put your eggs in one basket and get a larger radius and outflanking to go with it?

Off topic: Thanks. I've been agonizing over whether to Marbo and a Land Speeder Tornado for Forgeworld compositions. I came to the conclusion that Marbo's sufficiently easy to hide, but I'm not ever going to get to fire those multi-meltas again.

 Ailaros wrote:
I suppose that pask is less risky than other character upgrades. With straken, for example, said points basket is only being protected by a CCS, while pask is protected by 3HP of AV14.

I wouldn't even look at it that way. Protecting Pask is no more of a goal than protecting the hull LCs you bought, or the 60 points of plasma you put in your CCS, or whatever. It's only risky in the sense that a fully upgraded Punisher is 250+ points, but can still die to a single shot. It might be better to take two base Exterminators instead as insurance against a lucky LC shot killing all of your best anti-infantry shooting, even though the point efficiency is worse.

But of course Pask doesn't change any of that just because he's a character, all that matters is the total point investment in the unit compared to its durability. The same problem applies to the all-plasma Executioner, for example, even though no characters are involved.

And Ailaros, I wouldn't be too quick to discount crack shot. 6th edition allows you to premeasure whenever you want, so you'll be able to use it without risk when the opportunity presents itself.

And when it does, your main gun just became twice as effective against AV11. Just, you know, watch out for deepstriking melta. I hear it's popular in your area.

Pask Punisher is amusing against Eldar.

As in, I kill myself laughing watching all the skimmers explode to lots and lots of bullets.

And that joy is worth any points.

More seriously, the Punisher and Exterminator are the best options for him; they increase their overall utility, by making the Punisher a MC murderer (Trygon just popped in front of you? Eat a pile of accurate, painful bullets) and reasonably effective against light vehicles, while enhancing its accuracy against its primary target, and the Exterminator is a jack of all trades to begin with, and Pask only improves that.

He is, however, an expensive upgrade and I generally find him not worth it. For a codex guard list, you don't need the Vanquisher; the Vendetta is a better AT weapon, or deep striking melta stormtroopers, or marbo, or even just melta vets in a Chima. There's no shortage of good AT weapons, so the paskuisher, while effective, isn't needed.

As for the other tanks, its an enhancement rather than a needed boost; those tanks are effective before you add Pask, they become better, but at a very high cost.

In the end, if you want some armoured fury, run an armoured company, and if you want pure optimal combat power, aircav is better at just about anything a Pask tank, or even a tank force in general is capable of doing at equal points.

I think the topic as a whole was predicated on the idea that Armoured Companies (or indeed, any Forgeworld vehicles) were not an option.

The Company Command Tanks and Commissar Tanks make Pask look like a bad joke.

Corollax wrote:
I think the topic as a whole was predicated on the idea that Armoured Companies (or indeed, any Forgeworld vehicles) were not an option.

The Company Command Tanks and Commissar Tanks make Pask look like a bad joke.

I don't think this is true at all. First of all you can't take the Executioner/Punisher/Demolisher as HQ or commissar tanks, so taking codex tanks with Pask is your only option there. Second, you're not getting the crack shot rule. If BS 4 is all that matters, sure, take the HQ tank, but if you want those STR 8 autocannons you need Pask. And finally you don't have unlimited allies slots. It might be nice to take ABG allies, but if you're already taking Space Wolf allies to put rune priests in your blobs then it isn't an option.

And I did consider FW tanks, even if the LR Conqueror was pretty easily dismissed as obvious garbage. Pask in a LR Annihilator is actually a reasonably good idea.

Corollax wrote:
I think the topic as a whole was predicated on the idea that Armoured Companies (or indeed, any Forgeworld vehicles) were not an option.

The Company Command Tanks and Commissar Tanks make Pask look like a bad joke.

Which is the point; if you want to field a tank that's accurate and hits harder than usual, using pask is a round hole, square peg kind of situation. The only way he's actually better is on the Punisher and Exterminator, as he can increase their anti-tank and anti-MC capacity in a way that no other option can, which is why I'd only really recommend him for those two tanks.

If you want a kick ass vanquisher popping things across the table, you need to run an armoured company, as standard guard just won't work for that, or it's just not logical when much better AT options exist. I can put a vet squad with three melta guns in a vendetta for 10 points more, and I can guarantee you they'll do better than Paskuishers at wrecking vehicles, MCs, fliers and just about everything else.

Hrm. I missed the detail that ABG HQ Russes couldn't take Punisher turrets. If you want to take a Vanquisher, though, the ABG HQ's are definitely the way to go (FOC permitting)!

I think it's somewhat misleading to call a Pask-piloted Exterminator S8, though, as such a tank lacks the ability to ID T4 models. Wraiths come to mind, here.