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 AegisGrimm wrote:

Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

Either that, or absolutely none at all thought that way.

Possible, but I doubt it.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I have had an army of 3rd company Ultramarines since the latter days of 2nd edition. I fully intend to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.

I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about!

Absolutely, the rule of cool applies. Using Deathwing rules to represent a 1st Company army is very cool. Using Blood Angels to represent an Assault Company army is cool. Using Space Wolves to represent generic Marines because the rules are better is uncool, and should be frowned upon.

 Kaldor wrote:
There's been polls on here about it before, it's hardly a minority opinion. Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

If its not a minority, then it must be a very silent majority. You seem to be the only proponent of the 'no blue SW chapters here!' talking up in this thread.
Perhaps people were polite and did not say I was a tool to my face. Given that I live in New England, I doubt it -- people here are so blunt that being think-skinned is a necessity not a nicety.

Edit : Its also possible that your local area in Australia is a hell of a lot more uptight than the US. Its possible we are both speaking of what we normally see in the meta -- so I can't speak about what your city is like. I can assure you that we here in the states don't care about 'blue SW'. Were here to play toy soldiers with our friends.

Here is the thing -- I get what your saying about someone just using their unpainted models to be the latest, greatest codex. If the models are not WYSIWYG, or do they fit the criteria I can see your gripe. However, if someone makes their army WYSIWYG and fit, then whats the problem?

The Ultramarine as SW example is great example. Notice the banner in the back. I marked those in roman numerals to signify each squad, and these were my wolf banners. When I popped a banner, I would remove the banner from the squad. Notice the guy in front from the command set. He was a mark of the wolfen model. See how he is clearly different than the models behind him?
[url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/388431-.html][/url

 AegisGrimm wrote:
[ I am seriously pondering whether to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using the Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.

I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about, is innovation and imagination!

I think that is a fantastic idea, just for the record.

I think it's okay. Now i'm inspired if I ever want a space wolf army!

Tiger9gamer, the really cool thing is you can build that army for dirt cheap.

The terminators came from the AoBR set. The marines were mostly from AoBR. I also had some old marines from the 90s I threw in there.
I used two boxes of command squads to make the MoTW marines and some wolf guard. I added one librarian as the rune priest.

The entire project cost me about 100 bucks, and I was able to use it with my other ultramarines as normal squads if I wanted. I occasionally used the terminators with my ultramarine bike army in casual games. I also occasionally used a bike squad as swiftclaw bike squads. While there is not a 1 to 1 ratio of conversion, many of the units were interchangable.

sweet. Only thing is that I would rather support the manager from my local GW, so it would be a little more expensive for me X-X cool idea and worth a try!

The most important part of this thread is Labmouse's sig.

 labmouse42 wrote:
If its not a minority, then it must be a very silent majority.

Here's a poll I ran a while ago. I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority.

You seem to be the only proponent of the 'no blue SW chapters here!' talking up in this thread.

I'll freely admit this is more of an issue for me than the regular gamer. It really grinds my gears when people take models for X, and rules for Y when their only motivation is an in-game advantage. It takes away from the narrative aspect of the game for me. It's not an issue when you're doing it for a narrative reason. An Ultramarine 1st Company army using Deathwing rules, or an 8th Company army using Blood Angels rules, or a Thousand Sons army using Grey Knight rules for example.

To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

 Kaldor wrote:
I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

Let's see...

1) Wanting to try a different playstyle not really made possible with your "own" codex
2) Wanting to try a more competitive codex because your current one is ancient and you're tired of taking a beating because of it
3) Wanting to save money by not buying several marine armies when you can simply have one "expanded" army

To name a few of the more obvious ones.

 Kaldor wrote:

It takes away from the narrative aspect of the game

It does not in the least. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was at least moderately intended with the implimentation of the new allies rules. Once in a while now, I go ahead and take a blood angels ally so that I can have worthwile jump marines, and the option to buy fast tanks. I don't however paint my vindicator red.

Thats the best thing about loyalist marines over any other army. You can swap army books and not have to pay a stupidly pretty penny for a new army

Quoted for truth as the kiddies say.

Anyone who would actually gripe about your using marine models painted as one chapter to represent another chapter in order to utilize another army book is being a TFG in my never humble opinion. As long as your army is WYSIWYG compliant as far as troop types/weapons or represents a consistant and easy to keep up with "counts as" subitution, then your opponent really has no legitimate gripe. I suspect the mind set that would have an issue with that is motivated by elitism and what I call the "what do you mean you play it on oridnary paper!!111!!???" mentality.

The poll linked to by Kaldor is actually pretty meaningless as it only reflects the opinions of those in the fantasy world of the the 'net were we are sheilded by the diasconnect and anonymity. In the real world, I can garenteee you will find very, very few who would actually take you to task for using one chapter minitaures to represent another. As is the case with alot of issues, online you are going to get alot of whining, griping, wailing, and rending of garments about it. But in person, were you actually have to face social consequences for 4chan kiddie type trash talk, not so much. You might ocasionally encounter some mouth breathing morlock who would actualy be crass enough to gripe about such a thing, but as I point out above, they are typically your TFG types.

TR

Edit:
Oh yeah. I'm sure I represent a majority of folks here when I say that I would FAR rather play against the "Ultramarines/Space Wolves" pictured above than the usual tiresome parade of unpainted armies. I'm sure even kaldor would agree with that statement....

 Kaldor wrote:
Here's[/url] a poll I ran a while ago. I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority.

That poll is not relevant to what is being discussed here, codex hopping and the poll itself is clarified to be chasing power around armies, not as mouse has done taking a colour scheme he loves and using rules he likes to represent his army. Comparing it to the Eldar dressed up as an Ork is so far off base it's not even funny. The guy who shows up with his codex grey marines where the same models have imaginary CC weapons one week, imaginary jump packs the next I have issue with. New gamers who want to proxy are fine, it's an expensive hobby but even then i'll just leave them to play with people who are happy to play like that, no skin off my nose. Bandwagon chasing is a part of WAAC gaming and while I may never engage in it, it's still a valid way to play with your toy soldiers, good luck to em.

People who take the time to model and paint WYSIWYG models from other marine dexes I have zero issue with, no doubt it's a contributing factor to Marine popularity having that kind of versitility. I hate marines with a passion but even I can appreciate the care and modelling time someone like mouse has put in and respect that and would have no issue playing that army. Hell if I didn't despise the gene modded corpse worshippers I'd probably pick a single chapter and collect different detachments from the various books all painted in the same colours, especially in these times of allies. Those really fancy Mentor Legion Vanguard with power weapons and wrist bolters? Part of my BA detachment and using the Sanguinary Guard rules.

A marine is a marine is a marine as they say and if I can tell easily what they are from their bling and weapons we're good to play, that Ork will always be an Ork and will never convince me he's I5 with an Avenger Catapult...

So back to the OP, punished for using the basic marine dex? You get more updates, have a better supported range, more allies opportunity and more interchangability than any Xenos race out there. The undersupported Xenos races will shed no tears with their ancient models and dexes for the fact you have to ally to get your slightly cheaper versions of units and monsterous model range

Punished for playing marines indeed...

 Kaldor wrote:
To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

Alas, good sir, we are not all made of money.
'Nutting up' and playing space wolves would cost 200%+ times what it takes to mod off an existing army. I have kids and bills, so need to be as creative with my dollar as possible.

 Kaldor wrote:
I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority

That poll is about codex hopping. Not about using a 'counts as' army of one color to emulate another.
I think were talking apples vs oranges with that poll.

Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

Oh, the BT codex can work, but basically only in the form of Krak spam (Typhoons, CMLs), which really isn't much of a fun playstyle in the long run. So why should one just play only that (assuming one doesn't want to get tabled due to fielding something totally uncompetitive - and this coming from me, who very much dislikes having to optimize lists) and never ever try something else because GW can't be bothered to update the codex and then there's some arbitrary concept of "sticking with it"? Pfft. It'll remain my primary codex, but I won't limit myself to just that. Though after my latest purchases - still assembly needed however - most of my infantry models won't be shared between Templars and SM and thus the counts-as factor is lessened. SM gets the starter kit (of both AoBR and DV variety) one-posers for their troops, while BT actually gets upgraded and sometimes even painted crusaders Besides, SM has some nice units like the TFC that I want to get to try out. And Rifleman Dreads, something that's actually quite useful compared to trying to run an expense BT TLLC/ML Dread or a short-range Dread, the latter sadly being suicide. Now if only the Dread kits came with plastic autocannons... sigh.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

I don't like what happened to the Templars after the two latest FAQ's. I'm using them as Codex Space Marines until the next Black Templars codex come out. I've said as much many times.

Laugh all you want, but I have an army consisting of nearly 10,000 points worth of fully painted Black Templars, including a pair of Super Heavies for Apocalypse games. After playing them for 5 years, spending thousands of dollars and hundreds (if not thousands) of hours painting them, GW kicked my army in the square in the nuts. So, because I'm choosing to play them as Codex Space Marines, I'm some sort of pariah that should be shunned and scorned? Give me a fething break.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
In fact, I don't think any of the rules say you can;t take another Codexes marines as allies, and paint them as a special part of your army, either, like a "Black Templars" Storm Raven.

While I agree in theory with this position, in practice it would depend on the level of ally the other marines are and how easy it is to differentiate between the main force and the allies on the table top so that powers and abilities are not applied to incorrect units that can't benefit from them. This wouldn't be necessary if the marine chapter ally levels were all consistent, but they are not.

I have to admit to still not understanding the thought processes behind the allied table in the rulebook. It just makes zero sense to me that a Space Wolves force, no matter, the history between the primarchs would be happier allying with Tau than Dark Angels. It is just dumb to see things like that in the table. I can see some exceptions made to benefit some Xenos players to have more ally options, but the Imperial forces should all be pretty buddy, buddy at each level. Marines should be close allies, while marines and IG might be the next level down. Some stress between the grey knights, sisters and other factions would make a little sense and NO xenos should be seen as a better ally than any other imperial faction. Doesn't look like logic or balance really played a part and at times looks like they just threw darts at a board for each force and missed the board completely for 'nids. To be fair 'nids should at least be able to ally with themselves to give them access to the extra slots allies offer.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtariAssasin wrote:
The most important part of this thread is Labmouse's sig.

Have to admit to stopping and watching it mesmerized every time it comes up in the thread.

Skriker

Imo there is nothing wrong with wanting to win and therefore it is, at least for me, totaly acceptable to do some codexhopping if your old dex sucks ( especialy in the case of spessmuhreens who differ from each other primarily by the colour they use ).

 Kaldor wrote:
To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

The simplest and easiest reason: Because you want to. It is that simple. Someone may want to play Space Wolves, but hate that blue grey paint scheme and thus paint their minis different. It is that basic.

Just because you can't see a good reason doesn't mean such reasons don't exist. The various specific codex books play differently than each other and differently than the vanilla codex. Play style and army methods makes up a big part in what army one chooses to play. I mean if you want to play assault focused marines you won't pick the Dark Angels codex, but would pick the Blood Angels codex. Doesn't matter if you paint them red, green or blue as long as your opponent knows that you are using the Blood Angels codex and the army is built to it and run by its rules. For them it fits "their" narrative, and "their" desires, but would still offend your sensitivies for narratives because they aren't painted like blood angels. Given that GW itself clearly states that the chapter specific books can be used to represent a player's own chapter or pretty much whatever they want it to. So where exactly is the problem here? Obviously it is with your own expectations and wants from other players. Of course if you approach the game with those kinds of expectations that don't really take the opinions of the other players into account you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Of course we've had this discussion before in the thread about the player who wanted to paint his Space Wolves green...ultimately the issue with the "narrative" is yours and doesn't really require anyone else to change how they do things if they don't want to.

Skriker

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

I don't like what happened to the Templars after the two latest FAQ's. I'm using them as Codex Space Marines until the next Black Templars codex come out. I've said as much many times.

Laugh all you want, but I have an army consisting of nearly 10,000 points worth of fully painted Black Templars, including a pair of Super Heavies for Apocalypse games. After playing them for 5 years, spending thousands of dollars and hundreds (if not thousands) of hours painting them, GW kicked my army in the square in the nuts. So, because I'm choosing to play them as Codex Space Marines, I'm some sort of pariah that should be shunned and scorned? Give me a fething break.

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

Sorry AW, but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

Sorry AW, but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

Np, I can see where you're coming from.

Templar brofist?

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

I don't like what happened to the Templars after the two latest FAQ's. I'm using them as Codex Space Marines until the next Black Templars codex come out. I've said as much many times.

Laugh all you want, but I have an army consisting of nearly 10,000 points worth of fully painted Black Templars, including a pair of Super Heavies for Apocalypse games. After playing them for 5 years, spending thousands of dollars and hundreds (if not thousands) of hours painting them, GW kicked my army in the square in the nuts. So, because I'm choosing to play them as Codex Space Marines, I'm some sort of pariah that should be shunned and scorned? Give me a fething break.

I can't help but to laugh, if I knew you personally, I think our group would force you to play your pretty boys as BT. Sorry but the irony of it is just to funny. GW and their antics.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

Sorry AW, but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

Np, I can see where you're coming from.

Templar brofist?

Bro fist.

 g0atsticks wrote:
I can't help but to laugh, if I knew you personally, I think our group would force you to play your pretty boys as BT. Sorry but the irony of it is just to funny. GW and their antics.

But who would want to play in such a group to begin with?

tvih wrote:

 g0atsticks wrote:
I can't help but to laugh, if I knew you personally, I think our group would force you to play your pretty boys as BT. Sorry but the irony of it is just to funny. GW and their antics.

But who would want to play in such a group to begin with?

It was just a joke, and you wouldn't be invited for your lack of humor. I said good day.

Yeah life is hard. It's too bad they don't really mind making people hop around after the power creep to buy new models

Combat tactics and knowing no fear are a great combo for tactical play off of your turn.

The special characters are a dumb kind of fun.

You have a cool flyer gunboat and special rules for drop pod assaults.

You have unique librarian load outs.

You've got amazing THSS units.

You've got great access to allies.

It's really a whole new game with allies in the picture. Counts as armies are where it's at. I feel like some people here are living in the past.

Too bad about your expensive devastators though.

 Lucre wrote:


Too bad about your expensive devastators though.

Meh, It's there as an option if its really needed to finish off a certain idea. I'm completely content not having them as cheaply as others given all the other fun things we can do.

 g0atsticks wrote:
It was just a joke, and you wouldn't be invited for your lack of humor. I said good day.

For me to have a lack of humor would first require you to have said something that's actually funny, though

Anyways, more BTs to assemble!

 AtariAssasin wrote:
So with the new Dark Angels coming out with some new really cool looking units, as well as a new codex, I feel like being a codex player is increasingly foolish. If you want to paint your own scheme, or choose from one of the very cool chapters that just doesn't have it's own codex, you'll be missing out on some very powerful units, and even if you don't care about how uber some units are, you're still missing out on some awesome looking models. Maybe its foolish to fell slighted every time a codex comes out, but I don't think my chapter will EVER get its own codex.

I am assuming that since GW encourages you to buy every model for everything ever, instead of filling out your own army, and most of the people at my FLGS tend to field whatever is new, this wont bother most people, but I don't have the cash to buy everything that comes out.

Sorry, guess I'm just venting, but am I the only one who feels this way?

Hey, you know what?

Try playing Sisters of Battle, who still are using second edition models and a turd with writing on it instead of a codex.

5th edition C:SM is still a powerful, competent codex. Nothing about that has changed.

I think SoBs got better in 6th personally.

I do agree about the models though. Their really outdated now. I would love plastic sisters, especially seraphim..