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2013/01/07 14:39:30
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels (Completed)
My friend SabrX is on winter break and I finally get a chance to play against him. BTW, SabrX hasn't played any 40K at all since we last played so I've definitely got the experience edge on him with the new 6E rules.
This time, I decided to bring an experimental Chaos Space Marines list which I like to call....my Double-trouble Chaos army. It is basically my Typhus-Nurgle list with 1 notable exception....Abaddon! Yes, you heard me right - a CSM list with both Abaddon and Typhus! Typhus is the MAN, but we all know that Abaddon is the MAN's Man. In order to fit Abaddon in, I had to get rid of my plague marines. I wouldn't consider this list to be very balanced. Heck, it probably isn't really any good either, but you know what? I think I'll have a blast playing it. And who knows, maybe I'll surprise myself.
For SabrX, he will be bringing the army that he's been playing the most recently - his Blood Angels. Only this time, instead of a librarian, he's trying out the Sanguinor. I've played against his Angels a few times so will have a slight advantage in that I know how his army plays:
He, on the other hand, has not played against the new Chaos Marines yet. He's only seen my Chaos battle reports online. Will my Double-Trouble Chaos army be a force to be reckoned with, or will my opponent finally avenge his losses by taking it out on my poor Chaos? Enjoy....
Chaos Marines: I've played against SabrX's Blood Angels a few times before and they have always given me trouble. He beat my Daemon Flying Circus and if not for the dice going my way near the end, could have beaten my very strong wraithwing necrons as well. Traditionally, my armies have trouble against FNP blood angels but ironically, I feel that this Chaos list is actually better equipped to deal with them. With 6 oblits and my 2 bosses, I've actually got a lot of AP2 attacks that should be able to tear right through his jump infantry. Now 2+/3++ terminators with FNP? They will give me some problems.
Both of our armies are somewhat lacking in shooting. I might have a small edge with my oblits, but both army on the whole have very poor shooting. We both suck at shooting down flyers but my opponent may have a slight edge because his stormraven is better equipped to deal with enemy flyers than my heldrake. In assault, it could be anyone's game. I've got 2 beatstick bosses and the oblits can contribute in assault. More importantly, my army revolves around tarpitting my opponents. While I may not have the hard-hitting power of the Angels, I've got the resiliency to take a hit and then some. My opponent's army is quite the opposite. He's got good hitting power and the volume-of-attacks to win a war of attrition against many non-elite fighting units. He's also got a lot of resiliency with 3+ and 2+ armour backed by 5+ FNP. More importantly, he should be able to get the charge off almost at will. Basically, the Blood Angels should be able to control the Assault Phase and to dictate where the fights will take place.
Where my opponent's got me beat hands down....where he can kick my arse any time he likes....is his mobility. I flat-out cannot compete with him in the Movement Phase. My troops and oblits are Slow and Purposeful. This is the single greatest weakness in my army and where my opponents can exploit them the most. At most I can distract him with my Chaos Spawn but other than that, I'm going to have problems getting to his objective in the Emperor's Will. In this regard, I need to get "creative" like deepstriking some guys deep into enemy territory. I will lose some offense initially because of that, but I feel that I've got no choice. I need to make a play for his objective.
What I lose in mobility, hopefully I can make up for in experience. I've definitely got the experience edge on my opponent, having played more games of 6E then him and also having played against his army a few times as well. SabrX has yet to play against the new Chaos Marines and usually, that means he will possibly under-estimate the toughness of a Nurgle army. I feel that it's a slight edge and hopefully, it will keep the game close if nothing else.
Also, my opponent has 1 more advantage and this one is a big one. His Warlord - the Sanguinor - gets the Warlord trait where he gets +1 VP for every challenge he wins. Now I've got 5 zombie cultist champions who must challenge him in combat. If he plays it right, the Sanguinor needs to go and hunt down my zombie units to kill my champions. He can probably kill 1 or 2 and that may be the difference-maker in this game.
BA objective. He decided to put it up in the ruins because he would have an easier time getting up there than me.
Chaos objective.
My opponent rolls for the Red Thirst. The terminators, Power Fist assault squad and jump priest gets it. The Sanguinor also buffs up the sargeant in the terminator unit with his special ability.
Night-fight is on.
For psychic powers, Typhus gets Gift of Contagion and Plague Wind.
For Warlord traits, Abaddon has his custom trait, which we decided was useless against the Blood Angels. There is some ambiguity whether Prefered Enemy (Space Marines) would apply to the other chapters like Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc. I decided to play the way that gave me the least advantage, which means Abaddon's trait (and all units with Veterans of the Long War) will only work against units from the codex Space Marines.
Sanguinor gets the Warlord trait where he gets +1 VP for every challenge he wins.
BA deployment. I believe he combat squads 1 unit and leaves his stormraven in reserves.
BA deployment, rear perspective. The Sanguinor is hidden behind the building.
Chaos deployment. Basically, I form a protective circle around my objective, with Typhus leading the outer-most ring of zombies.
I catch my opponent off-guards when I leave Abaddon and 1 unit of oblits in reserves to deepstrike in later.
I also leave 2 10-man zombie squads and the heldrake in reserves.
Finally, I deploy the chaos spawn to the right to threaten his objective. I need to force my opponent to split up because I don't think my zombies will hold up to the combined assault of his entire army.
Terminators advance. The 10-man assault squad actually moves behind the termies to get away from my chaos spawn.
His other unit of assault marines move behind the LOS-blocking terrain.
No shooting. Angels run.
Chaos 1
Spoiler:
My Movement phase....which is not very much.
Chaos spawn advance but make sure to stay out of this hamminator's threat range....not that I was concerned that they would go after the spawns. My plan is to assault his assault marines by his objective and contest it.
Obliterators fire plasma cannons at his hamminators. Normally I would go after his assault marines, but they would be getting 3+ shrouded cover with FNP anyways. 1 oblit takes 1W from Overheat. They then kill 2 termies.
Blood Angels 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
His raven comes in. Angels then advance. The Sanguinor is brave and goes after Typhus without the support of the rest of his army. That would be his first mistake.
Terminators would run.
Shooting with flamers and bolt pistols would kill 6 zombies. He fires his raven into my oblits and only end up killing 1 thanks to good saves on my part.
The Sanguinor then charges Typhus and challenges him to a duel. What my opponent forgot was that I will be getting 5 re-rolls in combat due to Moral Support (because Typhus has 25+ friends with him).
Fortunately for him, he makes all his 3++ saves. Typhus makes his 5++ and FNP saves as well for 0 wounds apiece.
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
I get some good reserve rolls. Both units of zombies stay in reserves but Abaddon and his oblits come in. They scatter slightly.
My heldrake comes in as well and goes after his assault marines.
This is my opponent's 2nd mistake....failing to take into account my blast/temp weapons and not spreading out his guys.
I opt to re-roll failed wounds due to Daemonforge and end up killing 7 marines after FNP. Fortunately for my opponent, his Sanguinary Priest passes all his Look-Out-Sirs! and survives.
Here my oblits land 3 direct hits with plasma cannons! Needless to say, I wipe out his entire 10-man assault squad!!! I get First Blood.
Chaos spawn run and get ready to counter-attack (they had no one within their LOS to charge, especially after my oblits wiped out his assault squad).
Finally, Typhus beats up on the Sanguinor in combat, winning 2-1.
Blood Angels 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
My opponent now realizes what a grevious error he has made by assaulting the Sanguinor into Typhus' unit. Because of Abaddon and oblits, I have forced his terminators to double-back to deal with them and to protect their own objective. Now he's lost the benefit of Sanguinor's +1 Attack bubble. Also, he's wasted his Warlord trait to try to get some bonus VP's in a challenge because he is stuck in combat with Typhus.
Hamminators double-back. 5-man assault combat squad goes to deal with the chaos spawns. His raven goes into Hover mode and his 3-man assault unit gets in. The Sanguinary Priest goes to join the 5-man combat squad.
Stormraven continues to fire at my oblits and only manage to do 1W.
Assault squad then charges into the spawns.
They actually win combat by 1 as I only got 2 attacks each from the spawn.
His deathstar assaults Abaddon's unit. I issue a challenge and he accepts with his buffed-up sergeant (from the Sanguinor's ability).
We tie combat with 4W each. Hamminator sergeant and Abaddon both only put 1W on each other. I believe Abaddon rolled a for his daemon weapon.
Finally, Typhus kills off the Sanguinor but takes another 2W along the way.
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Typhus's unit and oblits advance. The helturkey goes into Hover mode and then immobilizes itself on terrain.
Here we come up to the question of....does the helturkey gets its 5++ Daemon save against the dangerous terrain? We decided to play it as no, though I believe I could make a good case for the other way around.
His baleflamer and Typhus' Plague Wind manage only to kill 3 assault marines.
In combat, assault marines kill 1 spawn and the spawns kill 4 marines. The last guy fails morale and runs away (only to automatically regroup later).
The forces of Chaos actually win combat, killing the sergeant and 1 hamminator and only losing the already wounded oblit. Abaddon gets the Shred special rule for winning the challenge.
Blood Angels 4
Spoiler:
His raven remains in Hover mode. Lone assault marine regroups and goes to hide behind the building near his objective.
I believe the raven puts 1W on an oblit. 3-man assault unit fails to penetrate the immobilized heldrake with their meltagun.
Sanguinary Priest goes after the spawns, hoping to tie them up in combat so that they cannot contest.
They actually win combat again!
In combat, Abaddon rolls another for his daemon weapon and is taken down to 1W left. The Angels also kill off the obliterator.
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
Typhus splits off from the zombies, who go after the 3-man assault squad. Typhus would fail his charge into the Sanguinary Priest-chaos spawn melee.
Zombies assault the 3-man assault squad....
....and wipes them out.
Chaos spawn loses combat yet again!
Last but not least, Abaddon manages to survive combat!
Blood Angels 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
Lone assault marine jumps onto his objective. Stormraven decides to go after the oblits to hopefully prevent them from shooting down his objective-holder.
It would fail.
In combat, Abaddon kills off the 2 hamminators in base with him.
Combat between his priest's unit and the chaos spawns remain a draw.
Chaos 5
Spoiler:
Typhus prepares to rescue the spawns.
Zombies go to help out Abaddon (not that he needs any).
I could go after his assault marine on the objective, but because I've already got this game in the bag, I decide to try to shoot down his annoying big bird instead.
All it takes is 1 oblit multi-melta to bring it crashing down.
Both Typhus and zombies make it into assault.
I wipe out his assault marines and priest.
Abaddon kills off his other priest in a challenge but his lone terminator survives.
SabrX could have conceded here, but he decides to play to the bitter end. The Blood Angels 8th Company doesn't quit and will fight to the very last man!
We roll to see if the game continues and it does.
Blood Angels 6
Spoiler:
He only has 2 assault marines and 1 lightning claw terminator left. But if they are going down, he's going to try to take 1 of my HQ's down with him.
Chaos Space Marines: (by Jy2)
Coming into this game. I was a little concerned. Assault marines, and especially 2+/3++ hamminators, backed by FNP is tough. They also have very good assault, a deadly general that makes the whole army better and one nasty deathstar. But what really concerned me the most was their mobility. All too often, I have relied on mobility to win, especially for certain armies like my necrons, daemons and even my bugs (dual flyrants, the Doom). I believe that one of the keys for being successful in 6E is good mobility. Because if you have mobility, then you can establish Positional Dominance in what are mainly objective-centric missions in 6E. Basically, it will be my game to lose as I will be forced to try to defend my objective and his game to win as he tries to take/contest it.
The way to play against such an army is to threaten his objective as well. Force him into the role of defender. Then you will be on a more even footing. While normally, I would probably put Typhus with 1 block of zombies and Abaddon with another, in this game, I had to play a little more unconventionally. I had basically 2 ways to threaten his objective. First is to deepstrike onto or near it. The second is to send my chaos spawns towards it. That is exactly what I tried to do. Threaten his objective and just hope that Typhus, oblits and 90+ zombies can hold out defending mine. The spawns can go and help out also if necessary. And honestly, I felt confident that it could work. I just needed to make sure I get the secondary objectives and especially First Blood since I was expecting a draw on objectives.
Also, I was planning on going after his scoring troops and basically ignoring his deathstar. Let them assault my zombies with Typhus or oblits with Abaddon. Because either ways, they will be tied up for a while and I can still contest his objective with my chaos spawn. I felt confident that the spawn could hold his objective for a long time. In the meantime, heldrake and oblits will try to clear out his assault marines. And on Turn 2 when my reserves wiped out more than half of his scoring units, I knew my opponent would be in trouble. I really did get lucky there with 3 direct hits from my oblit plasma cannons.
All in all, my opponent made some mistakes in this game that I would attribute to "ring-rust". But I believe that he will learn from this experience. All it takes is probably a couple of games and he should be back into his gaming form in no time.
Blood Angels: (by SabrX)
This is my first 40k game since Summer. I've been on hiatus with school work, so I'm a bit rusty. This is also my first time facing the new Chaos Space Marines.
My strategy was to bum rush Jy2's objective, slowly whittle away his zombie horde, and finally take control of it. FNP zombies aren't much of a threat and the Chaos Spawns are just a nuisance. It was the Oblits, Helldrake, Abbadon, and Typhus that I was more worried about.
In the past, Oblits is what makes Chaos Space Marines truly competitive. In 5th ed, Double Lash, 9 Oblits, and MSU mech Plague Marines dominated the tournament scene for many years. In the past, a good counter to Oblits was concentrating fire power to instant kill T4 Oblits. However, the new CSM 6th ed Oblits have access to mark of nurgle, making them twice as hard to kill. The new meta-game favors foot-slogging infantry over transports. It's the perfect environment for Oblits who can spam Plasma Cannons.
My strategy was to get into assault ASAP, where my Marines stood a better chance compared to Typhus' Plague Wind, Helldrake's baleflamer, or Oblit's Plasma Cannons. This was why I concentrated my Storm Raven's shooting at the Oblits guarding Jy2's objective and assaulted with Sanguinor to lock Typhus in assault.
However, Jy2 is a brilliant strategist and sometimes extremely lucky. Both his Helldrake and Abbadon + 2nd Oblits unit popped in on turn 2. The Oblits alone wiped out my rear Assault Marine squad. A Plasma Cannon small blast covers 5 Marines and all three hit or didn't scatter. I believe all but 2 wounded. 10 failed FNP saves later (the exact squad size) and my Marines are wiped out! I didn't expect that!. Also the Helldrake came in and killed seven Assault Marines. A huge chunk of my army wiped out in a single turn of shooting!
The tides have shifted and my bum rush plan has lost its momentum. I switched from offense to defense, leaving Sanguinor to his grisly fate. I totally forgot about the hordes allowing re-rolls. Hadn't been for that, Sanguinor might have won combat.
My Assault Terminators. My remaining Marines focused on defending home objective. I felt confident I could at least kill Abbadon and his Oblits. A few failed Daemon Weapons almost resulted in that. Unfortunately that didn't happen. Like a boss, he finishes off my promoted Assault Terminator sergeant and soon after the last two Thunder Hammer terminators with just 1 wound remaining! TL-Lightning Claw Terminator and Sanguinary Priest doesn't stand a chance!
All in all, bad play, and lack of experience lead to my army's defeat. As Bugs_N_Orks suggested, I could have played defense in the beginning and never make a play for Jy2's objective. Jy2's footslogging zombie's march toward a heavily defended objective would have been an up hill battle for Jy2. However, that type of game is boring and anti-climatic. Jy2 will still have the advantage with his Oblits and Helldrake raining hell on my forces. I like to play to my army's advantage and that's assault. Rarely you'll see me play defense with my Blood Angels. Even in the end, my Marines last two Marines make a final charge at Typhus.
Well played Jy2. Solid game on your part. Congrats.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2013/01/09 16:40:03
Even if a similar Zombie spam do not sounds "freakin' solid" to me I must still bet on Chaos.
Unit by unit I would say BA for sure, Abaddon vs Sanguinor, Terminators and/or Jump packers vs Zombies (with or without Typhus..), the 2 flyers..
BUT, there're still the Oblits somewhere on the table.
Will SabrX ignore Zombies rushing on Obliterators with everything he have (with the problem of pushing away from objectives 88 fearless bodies later) or instead will try to play sneaky and just ignore Oblits for some turn and throw at them the TDA little star unit?
It's curious, particulary this time JY2, you didn't take the ADL with Quadgun. It would have certainly helped freeing the drake from some of the Raven's attentions.
Anyway for sure an interesting match up with a lot of little face to face to look closer. Abaddon and the Sanguinor, the Turkey and the Raven (this could be a cool title for a book.. lol), the uber Terminators with Furious Charge and FNP vs the Typhus zombies..
Waiting impatiently..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/07 15:31:12
Every molecule will be useful
6000+ pts NIDS
() 2000 pts growing to 4000...
2013/01/07 15:14:36
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels
Toban wrote: Even if a similar Zombie spam do not sounds "freakin' solid" to me I must still bet on Chaos.
Unit by unit I would say BA for sure, Abaddon vs Sanguinor, Terminators and/or Jump packers vs Zombies (with or without Typhus..), the 2 flyers..
BUT, there're still the Oblits somewhere on the table.
Will SabrX ignore Zombies rushing on Obliterators with everything he have (with the problem of pushing away from objectives 88 fearless bodies later) or instead will try to play sneaky and just ignore Oblits for some turn and throw at them the TDA little star unit?
It's curious, particulary this time JY2, you didn't take the ADL with Quadgun. It would have certainly helped freeing the drake from some of the Raven's attentions.
Anyway for sure an interesting match up with a lot of little face to face to look closer. Abaddon and the Sanguinor, the Turkey and the Raven (this could be a cool title for a book.. lol), the uber Terminators with Furious Charge and FNP vs the Typhus zombies..
Waiting impatiently..
I'll probably get the report out today.
I had to drop the ADL and plague marines in order to fit in Abaddon. My army may not be balanced, but hey....Abaddon....he's the BOSS.
Yeah, it's probably going to be a battle between an assault army (Angels) versus an "anti-assault" army (Chaos). And while I normally "attack", in this game, I may be forced to "defend".
Mafty wrote: damn small model count armies at 1750 points. looks interesting.
Yeah, Chaos just doesn't have enough bodies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/07 15:55:48
Sweet matchup. Did you remember that Blood Angels have Hatred: Abaddon because of the Claw that killed Sanguinius? Looking forward to the report, I picked a draw based mainly on the mission and armies... daring play could swing the battle though.
7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons 5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters
2013/01/07 19:09:07
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels
Should be interesting. Chaos is slow, but I think they're better equipped to push forward while at the same time defending their objective, oblits and the heldrake are gonna be a huge pain for the BA and Abby's warlord trait is pretty useful as well. The BA on the other hand put out a huge number of S5 attacks on the charge, but will struggle if they get charged by spawn or cultist blobs. Personally I prefer non-zombies with flamers for the character blobs, I like being able to run, fire 30 pistols and 3 flamers and having an extra attack better than FNP (fearless is kind of moot with the character). Looking forward to seeing how it goes.
2013/01/07 19:39:04
Subject: Re:1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels
For Warlord traits, Abaddon has his custom trait, which we decided was useless against the Blood Angels. There is some ambiguity whether Prefered Enemy (Space Marines) would apply to the other chapters like Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc. I decided to play the way that gave me the least advantage, which means Abaddon's trait (and all units with Veterans of the Long War) will only work against units from the codex Space Marines.
What are defined as "space marines" is covered on page 28 of the chaos codex under "designer's note". So your warlord trait and veterans of the long war would help in you this fight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/07 19:40:09
2013/01/07 19:53:55
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels
BladeWalker wrote: Sweet matchup. Did you remember that Blood Angels have Hatred: Abaddon because of the Claw that killed Sanguinius? Looking forward to the report, I picked a draw based mainly on the mission and armies... daring play could swing the battle though.
No, I forgot about that due to this being my very first time using the new Abaddon in 6E. I'm not so sure it would have made too much of a difference as on the first turn Abaddon gets into assault, he fights in a challenge right away. Also, I'm not so sure how it would work as it is a unit of obliterators that he was with and attacks can't be allocated to him directly unless it was in a challenge.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Should be interesting. Chaos is slow, but I think they're better equipped to push forward while at the same time defending their objective, oblits and the heldrake are gonna be a huge pain for the BA and Abby's warlord trait is pretty useful as well. The BA on the other hand put out a huge number of S5 attacks on the charge, but will struggle if they get charged by spawn or cultist blobs. Personally I prefer non-zombies with flamers for the character blobs, I like being able to run, fire 30 pistols and 3 flamers and having an extra attack better than FNP (fearless is kind of moot with the character). Looking forward to seeing how it goes.
We played with the more conservative intepretation that Abaddon's Warlord trait only works against codex Space Marines and not their brethen (i.e. BA, Spave Wolves, Black Templar, Grey Knights, etc.). I agree that everything you say. The only thing is that, with their mobility advantage, BAIMO will have the advantage the entire game. This is what I like to call Positional Dominance. Basically, with his superior mobility, he can dictate where and when combat would take place. That means, it will be my objective to lose and his to gain. I'm already starting off with an inherent disadvantage in this matchup.
Normal cultists are probably more well-rounded overall, but I like zombies as delivery mechanisms for my uber-HQ's. In my lists, I much rather prefer the resiliency of my cheap troops over their offense. That's not saying that zombies are better or worse. It's just a preference of how I like to run my troops.
For Warlord traits, Abaddon has his custom trait, which we decided was useless against the Blood Angels. There is some ambiguity whether Prefered Enemy (Space Marines) would apply to the other chapters like Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc. I decided to play the way that gave me the least advantage, which means Abaddon's trait (and all units with Veterans of the Long War) will only work against units from the codex Space Marines.
What are defined as "space marines" is covered on page 28 of the chaos codex under "designer's note". So your warlord trait and veterans of the long war would help in you this fight.
Doh!
Good to know for my next battle and thanks!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/07 19:54:47
Tbh I really dig the Blood Angel list, i think with some small changes this could be quite competitive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/07 21:14:23
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/01/08 04:07:40
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels
Valek wrote: Tbh I really dig the Blood Angel list, i think with some small changes this could be quite competitive.
Yeah, I used to run a very similar BA list. Only instead of the ravens and so many terminators, I had 3 squads of missile devastators and 1 scout unit for objectives.
Yeah...bunching up with a heldrake and 3 DSing oblits on the way was a bad move. How was Sanguinor doing anything at all to typhus? Were you playing his glaive as an axe? otherwise typhus should have had a re-rollable 2+ and FNP. Really sanguinor should have been waiting around to beat up on cultist champs, once the termies/assault marines hit typhus's unit.
That ended up pretty much like I thought it would, only a fair bit more lopsided. The BA just don't have a good build to both attack and defend at the same time. Honestly I think he prob should have just given up on his objective and kept pushing towards yours with everything he had (and been a bit more careful about bunching up) and try to win on secondary/warlord traits. I prob would have put a combat squad in the stormraven (if you can do that), to drop by an objective late game.
2013/01/08 05:14:02
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels (Completed)
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Yeah...bunching up with a heldrake and 3 DSing oblits on the way was a bad move. How was Sanguinor doing anything at all to typhus? Were you playing his glaive as an axe? otherwise typhus should have had a re-rollable 2+ and FNP. Really sanguinor should have been waiting around to beat up on cultist champs, once the termies/assault marines hit typhus's unit.
That ended up pretty much like I thought it would, only a fair bit more lopsided. The BA just don't have a good build to both attack and defend at the same time. Honestly I think he prob should have just given up on his objective and kept pushing towards yours with everything he had (and been a bit more careful about bunching up) and try to win on secondary/warlord traits. I prob would have put a combat squad in the stormraven (if you can do that), to drop by an objective late game.
Yeah, he was running the glaive as an axe. His mistake was trying to use the Sanguinor to lock down my unit so that his units could assault next turn. This way, he takes away my ability to cast Plague Wind, my charge bonus and my denial of his Furious Charge bonus if I assault him next turn. What he didn't anticipate was that I would deepstrike behind him to threaten his objective and kill off his troops. My opponent's been a little out of it after having not played for about 4 months.
Unfortunately, I already got First Blood, would get Warlord after killing the Sanguinor and Linebreaker with Abaddon's unit. Abaddon was my Warlord so at least he was going to get 1 VP for going after that unit (if he had managed to kill Abbie). He already had the Sanguinor locked in combat with Typhus so the chance of him getting secondary/warlord traits was slim to nil....unless his Warlord could beat Typhus.
I don't believe you can put 1 combat squad in a raven because the reserves have to come in at the same time and then combat squad. The way I used to run my BA, I would take 1 5-man scout squad for objective-sitting along with my missile devastators. The rest of my army would then be advancing. It may be weak now against flyers but at least 12 missiles would make most armies worry a little.
This is my first 40k game since Summer. I've been on hiatus with school work, so I'm a bit rusty. This is also my first time facing the new Chaos Space Marines.
My strategy was to bum rush Jy2's objective, slowly whittle away his zombie horde, and finally take control of it. FNP zombies aren't much of a threat and the Chaos Spawns are just a nuisance. It was the Oblits, Helldrake, Abbadon, and Typhus that I was more worried about.
In the past, Oblits is what makes Chaos Space Marines truly competitive. In 5th ed, Double Lash, 9 Oblits, and MSU mech Plague Marines dominated the tournament scene for many years. In the past, a good counter to Oblits was concentrating fire power to instant kill T4 Oblits. However, the new CSM 6th ed Oblits have access to mark of nurgle, making them twice as hard to kill. The new meta-game favors foot-slogging infantry over transports. It's the perfect environment for Oblits who can spam Plasma Cannons.
My strategy was to get into assault ASAP, where my Marines stood a better chance compared to Typhus' Plague Wind, Helldrake's baleflamer, or Oblit's Plasma Cannons. This was why I concentrated my Storm Raven's shooting at the Oblits guarding Jy2's objective and assaulted with Sanguinor to lock Typhus in assault.
However, Jy2 is a brilliant strategist and sometimes extremely lucky. Both his Helldrake and Abbadon + 2nd Oblits unit popped in on turn 2. The Oblits alone wiped out my rear Assault Marine squad. A Plasma Cannon small blast covers 5 Marines and all three hit or didn't scatter. I believe all but 2 wounded. 10 failed FNP saves later (the exact squad size) and my Marines are wiped out! I didn't expect that!. Also the Helldrake came in and killed seven Assault Marines. A huge chunk of my army wiped out in a single turn of shooting!
The tides have shifted and my bum rush plan has lost its momentum. I switched from offense to defense, leaving Sanguinor to his grisly fate. I totally forgot about the hordes allowing re-rolls. Hadn't been for that, Sanguinor might have won combat.
My Assault Terminators. My remaining Marines focused on defending home objective. I felt confident I could at least kill Abbadon and his Oblits. A few failed Daemon Weapons almost resulted in that. Unfortunately that didn't happen. Like a boss, he finishes off my promoted Assault Terminator sergeant and soon after the last two Thunder Hammer terminators with just 1 wound remaining! TL-Lightning Claw Terminator and Sanguinary Priest doesn't stand a chance!
All in all, bad play, and lack of experience lead to my army's defeat. As Bugs_N_Orks suggested, I could have played defense in the beginning and never make a play for Jy2's objective. Jy2's footslogging zombie's march toward a heavily defended objective would have been an up hill battle for Jy2. However, that type of game is boring and anti-climatic. Jy2 will still have the advantage with his Oblits and Helldrake raining hell on my forces. I like to play to my army's advantage and that's assault. Rarely you'll see me play defense with my Blood Angels. Even in the end, my Marines last two Marines make a final charge at Typhus.
Well played Jy2. Solid game on your part. Congrats.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/08 06:01:05
Oh something I forgot from before, DE get flicker field saves against dangerous (in the FAQ I think) so I'd say the Daemon engines get their 5++ too.
You put him in a really tough spot, no doubt about that. It's just that by turning back he gave up any chance of threatening your objective (unless the raven with 3 assault marines made a break for it on T4), so at best he was hoping to draw on objectives, meaning it would go to secondaries and you already had first blood, a couple pretty tough line-breakers and were 1W away from getting his warlord. By throwing himself forward he could have GIed with his super sarge (who hopefully had a TH+SS) picked up line breaker, and actually had a chance at winning on objectives, and by keeping the raven with 3 man squad floating around he could force you to leave something back on his objective or risk losing both. That's how it looks to me anyway.
Edit: I wasn't necessarily saying you should play defensive, just that the way your army is built you can't really do both offense and defense very effectively at the same time. The Oblit DS caught me by surprise too (as well as how much damage they caused), but like I said above I think you should've gone all in and tried to smash through the zombies rather than turn around.
I liked your overall strategy there's just a couple things I'd change. Given how slow the chaos army is, bury your objective in the far corner so only the spawn, heldrake and DSers can threaten it. Camp it with a meltagun/PF combat squad plus Termie Priest so the heldrake can't reliably take them out (and will be in danger of getting melta-gunned if it hovers) and the Spawn will have their work cut out for them too. Push forward with everything else and don't look back (being careful not to bunch up lol).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/08 06:41:20
2013/01/08 06:24:12
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels (Completed)
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Oh something I forgot from before, DE get flicker field ssaves against dangerous (in the FAQ I think) so I'd say the Daemon enigines get their 5++ too.
You put him in a really tough spot, no doubt about that. It's just that by turning back he gave up any chance of threatening your objective (unless the raven with 3 assault marines made a break for it on T4), so at best he was hoping to draw on objectives, meaning it would go to secondaries and you already had first blood, a couple pretty tough line-breakers and were 1W away from getting his warlord. By throwing himself forward he could have GIed with his super sarge (who hopefully had a TH+SS) picked up line breaker, and actually had a chance at winning on objectives, and by keeping the raven with 3 man squad floating around he could force you to leave something back on his objective or risk losing both. That's how it looks to me anyway.
I doubt that. After Jy2's second turn of shooting, I had 8 Assault Terminators, 2 Sanguinary Priests, and 13 Assault Marines remaining. Jy2 made a multi-layer defense with the first ring of zombies protecting his zombies with Typhus making the outer layer, 2nd ring inner ring of zombies protected a small 10 unit cultist squad sitting on the objective. Furthermore, there's the Oblits, Chaos Spawn on the flank, and Abbadon + 3 Oblits closing in from behind. Continuing forward would have resulted in nothing except ending the game sooner.
Jy2's list probably won't fair well against shooty armies, but it will definitely excel against MEQ assault oriented ones like mine. It was a bad match up and I made a lot of mistakes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/08 06:25:27
Thanks for the writeup and thanks for the game. I will add it to my post-game above once I finish writing it up (which would probably be tomorrow).
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Oh something I forgot from before, DE get flicker field ssaves against dangerous (in the FAQ I think) so I'd say the Daemon enigines get their 5++ too.
You put him in a really tough spot, no doubt about that. It's just that by turning back he gave up any chance of threatening your objective (unless the raven with 3 assault marines made a break for it on T4), so at best he was hoping to draw on objectives, meaning it would go to secondaries and you already had first blood, a couple pretty tough line-breakers and were 1W away from getting his warlord. By throwing himself forward he could have GIed with his super sarge (who hopefully had a TH+SS) picked up line breaker, and actually had a chance at winning on objectives, and by keeping the raven with 3 man squad floating around he could force you to leave something back on his objective or risk losing both. That's how it looks to me anyway.
Edit: I wasn't necessarily saying you should play defensive, just that the way your army is built you can't really do both offense and defense very effectively at the same time. The Oblit DS caught me by surprise too (as well as how much damage they caused), but like I said above I think you should've gone all in and tried to smash through the zombies rather than turn around.
To be honest, I don't think it would have made much of a difference if he had advanced them. By that time, I've already killed 17 out of 30 assault marines. There was only 2 combat squad, 1 3-man unit and his assault terminators left. One thing about the assault termies is that, while they are great against MEQ's and better units, they really don't have the volume of attacks to kill off 90+ zombies along with Typhus and 2 oblits. They probably would have been stuck there for a while....possibly all game. And I would have thrown everything at them...the oblits near my home objective and Abaddon as well. He would have split from his oblits (who would then just sit on top of the BA objective and shoot down any units that they can) and head towards the assault terminators in combat.
After getting First Blood and taking a huge early lead, I don't think attacking mine or defending his objective would have made much of a difference. My opponent was just in too much of a hole to claw his way back without the help of some miraculous dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mafty wrote: good report.....didnt expect chaos to win, especially by that much of a margin. I voted for BAlol.
Those FNP termies didnt seem to do much, in this game and the last one you posted.
Yeah, I was surprised by this game as well. I was expecting it to be much closer then how it actually turned out.
One of the things about the assault termies is that you can mitigate their usefulness somewhat. Like all deathstars, you have to force them to make difficult decisions. Because a deathstar unit can only be at 1 place at a time. Either concede the home objective to go after mine (and even that isn't a sure thing) or concede my objective to go defend home base. That was why I had to make a play for his objective with Abaddon and oblits.
Also, don't under-estimate the killing potential of Abaddon. He really is one nasty mofo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/08 06:39:09
SabrX wrote:I doubt that. After Jy2's second turn of shooting, I had 8 Assault Terminators, 2 Sanguinary Priests, and 13 Assault Marines remaining. Jy2 made a multi-layer defense with the first ring of zombies protecting his zombies with Typhus making the outer layer, 2nd ring inner ring of zombies protected a small 10 unit cultist squad sitting on the objective. Furthermore, there's the Oblits, Chaos Spawn on the flank, and Abbadon + 3 Oblits closing in from behind. Continuing forward would have resulted in nothing except ending the game sooner.
Jy2's list probably won't fair well against shooty armies, but it will definitely excel against MEQ assault oriented ones like mine. It was a bad match up and I made a lot of mistakes.
jy2 wrote:To be honest, I don't think it would have made much of a difference if he had advanced them. By that time, I've already killed 17 out of 30 assault marines. There was only 2 combat squad, 1 3-man unit and his assault terminators left. One thing about the assault termies is that, while they are great against MEQ's and better units, they really don't have the volume of attacks to kill off 90+ zombies along with Typhus and 2 oblits. They probably would have been stuck there for a while....possibly all game. And I would have thrown everything at them...the oblits near my home objective and Abaddon as well. He would have split from his oblits (who would then just sit on top of the BA objective and shoot down any units that they can) and head towards the assault terminators in combat.
After getting First Blood and taking a huge early lead, I don't think attacking mine or defending his objective would have made much of a difference. My opponent was just in too much of a hole to claw his way back without the help of some miraculous dice.
Don't get me wrong, that was an absolutely brutal round Jy2 had with the oblits and heldrake, and you'd def need a fair bit of luck to overcome it. Maybe pushing forward would have ended the game sooner, but I'm not really seeing how turning back to defend would have won you the game even if everything went right. Jy2 had first blood and was going to get Warlord if you didn't back Sangy up, even if you wiped abby and the spawn, and managed to sneak someone in for linebreaker (that the heldrake and other oblits didn't notice), Jy2 could just bring a reserve zombie unit on in the corner T3 or 4 and get linebreaker there. With the Sanguinor's aura those 10 AMs (put 3 in the raven to threaten objectives later), 8 Termies, and 2 priests put out almost 90 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 2's on the charge (60ish when not charging). With Jy2's layered defense that'll wipe one cultist blob pretty convincingly (unless you could kill enough with bolt pistol shots to get off a multi charge), and if your super sarge got his glorious intervention off he'd be coming in with 5 attacks and 3++/FNP and typhus wouldn't get any re-rolls, possibly opening the door for Sangy to start calling out cultist leaders for extra VPs. I'm not saying it'd be a great chance, but some chance is better than no chance right?
Edit: I don't think I said it already but thanks for taking the time to do these reports Jy2, and thanks for talking through your strategy SabrX.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/08 07:44:04
2013/01/08 08:24:55
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels (Completed)
All it takes is 1 oblit multi-melta to bring it crashing down.
I hope you didnt use 2d6 for armour pen!
Very harsh game there for the BA's, helldrake would have been the number one target due to the baleflamer
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2013/01/08 15:46:06
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels (Completed)
Welcome to 6th edition! Great report and I am sure a good learning experience for Sabr
It seems like Sabr overextended a bit with his units and might have been better off if he had spread out a bit more - especially knowing a unit of Oblits was in reserve along with the Heldrake. speaking of which, that Dragon is nasty to foot MEQ.
Sanguinor lost two wounds in the initial round of combat. Backing him up wouldn't save him considering he's locked in a challenge with 1 wound remaining. Had the Terminators and remaining marines charged forward they may have wiped out the zombie entourage protecting Typhus (terminators + sanguinary priest alone with +1 attack would have done 23.52 wounds). It would have taken Abbadon two turns to reach them. However, the Chaos Spawns were within range to strike back, potentially tying up Terminators + Assault Marines on the bottom of turn 3. 2nd blob of Zombies and unit of 2 Oblits near Jy2's objective will assault, inflicting much damage and prolonging assault long enough for Abbadon to make it into the fray. All the while, unit of 10 zombies are well protected on Jy2's objective.
I already knew it was a losing battle once Sanguinor had lost 2 wounds and Jy2 scored first blood. It would have been a miracle if Sanguinor survived and finished off Typhys.
In hindsight, I should have played to Sanguinor's 6" bubble advantage and let everyone else press forward rather than charge straight at Typhus on turn 2. Sanguinor vs. Abbadon would have been a better match up.
All it takes is 1 oblit multi-melta to bring it crashing down.
I hope you didnt use 2d6 for armour pen!
Very harsh game there for the BA's, helldrake would have been the number one target due to the baleflamer
Unfortunately Jy2 won the roll off and opted me to go first. If I had it my way, I would have definitely gone second in hopes of shooting the helldrake down once it arrived. Top of turn 2, I positioned my Storm Raven with its Multimelta within range of the oblits to fire all its weapons. Jy2 was smart enough to position his Helldrake where it would be impossible for my Stormraven to shoot his Helldrake down after minimum movement required for flyers. At that point, switching to Hover mode seemed like the best option to rescue a small squad of Assault Marines and focus on the more immediate threat, the Oblits.
calypso2ts wrote: Welcome to 6th edition! Great report and I am sure a good learning experience for Sabr
It seems like Sabr overextended a bit with his units and might have been better off if he had spread out a bit more - especially knowing a unit of Oblits was in reserve along with the Heldrake. speaking of which, that Dragon is nasty to foot MEQ.
Yeah, the Helldrake and Oblits had a field day with my Space Marines. I didn't do a good job spreading out my Assault Marines. It's difficult though considering Chaos Spawns are beast. It was really hard maneuvering my Assault Marines knowing the Chaos Spawn's threat range.
Priests don't roll for red thirst, has it been FAQ'd that Abaddon can join marked units? Nice report, think with some more luck the blood angels could of had it
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2013/01/09 17:05:36
Subject: 1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels (Completed)
All it takes is 1 oblit multi-melta to bring it crashing down.
I hope you didnt use 2d6 for armour pen!
Very harsh game there for the BA's, helldrake would have been the number one target due to the baleflamer
Oops! We forgot.
Because I rarely play against stormravens and when I did, it was with my melta-less armies.
And because the stormraven was new for my opponent as well.
We both missed it. Thanks!
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Oh something I forgot from before, DE get flicker field saves against dangerous (in the FAQ I think) so I'd say the Daemon engines get their 5++ too.
That makes sense. I would say that I agree.
I liked your overall strategy there's just a couple things I'd change. Given how slow the chaos army is, bury your objective in the far corner so only the spawn, heldrake and DSers can threaten it. Camp it with a meltagun/PF combat squad plus Termie Priest so the heldrake can't reliably take them out (and will be in danger of getting melta-gunned if it hovers) and the Spawn will have their work cut out for them too. Push forward with everything else and don't look back (being careful not to bunch up lol).
That's how we normally place objectives when we played against each. Just put the objective into the very corner. Had he done so, I'd probably never have reached it with my troops, but I have confidence I can wipe out the marines holding it and deny him his objective. Then I would have left my objective in my very corner and defended it with layers of zombies. I probably would have also left Abaddon and Typhus at home to defend. And I'm pretty confident that he would not be able to bust through my defenses (especially since he would have to spend 2-3 turns just moving his deathstar). I would probably still take that mission 1-0 on objectives. The problem is an inherent weakness on my opponent's army that I can exploit - deathstars can't be in 2 places at the same time!
Don't get me wrong, that was an absolutely brutal round Jy2 had with the oblits and heldrake, and you'd def need a fair bit of luck to overcome it. Maybe pushing forward would have ended the game sooner, but I'm not really seeing how turning back to defend would have won you the game even if everything went right. Jy2 had first blood and was going to get Warlord if you didn't back Sangy up, even if you wiped abby and the spawn, and managed to sneak someone in for linebreaker (that the heldrake and other oblits didn't notice), Jy2 could just bring a reserve zombie unit on in the corner T3 or 4 and get linebreaker there. With the Sanguinor's aura those 10 AMs (put 3 in the raven to threaten objectives later), 8 Termies, and 2 priests put out almost 90 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 2's on the charge (60ish when not charging). With Jy2's layered defense that'll wipe one cultist blob pretty convincingly (unless you could kill enough with bolt pistol shots to get off a multi charge), and if your super sarge got his glorious intervention off he'd be coming in with 5 attacks and 3++/FNP and typhus wouldn't get any re-rolls, possibly opening the door for Sangy to start calling out cultist leaders for extra VPs. I'm not saying it'd be a great chance, but some chance is better than no chance right?
Edit: I don't think I said it already but thanks for taking the time to do these reports Jy2, and thanks for talking through your strategy SabrX.
Basically, it came down to confidence. Did my opponent feel confident that he could kill enough of my guys to contest my objective or perhaps even wipe out my guys to claim it? And the answer was no. I agree with him. Barring some extreme dice, I don't think that he could do it either. What both of us thought was that his guys would be stuck in combat whereas my innermost layer of zombies (with 2 more 10-man squads who came in from reserves) would still claim the objectives. On the flip side, I would be contesting his objective with my oblits and would have sent Abaddon and chaos spawn to help defend my objective. I would end up winning with 1-0 objectives.
However, had he moved back with his deathstar, he could potentially wipe out Abaddon (thus also getting my Warlord), oblits and perhaps even the spawns (or at least tie them up in combat). Thus we would have been tied on objectives and would have to rely on secondary VP's to decide the game (of which he thought he could easily get Warlord and Linebreaker).
Basically, it came down to this. My opponent had more confidence that he could kill Abaddon and oblits (and perhaps spawns) than the rest of my army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
calypso2ts wrote: Welcome to 6th edition! Great report and I am sure a good learning experience for Sabr
It seems like Sabr overextended a bit with his units and might have been better off if he had spread out a bit more - especially knowing a unit of Oblits was in reserve along with the Heldrake. speaking of which, that Dragon is nasty to foot MEQ.
Yeah, he won't be making the same mistake next time when going up against the heldrake and oblits.....I hope.
Those heldrakes are what will keep Chaos competitive against MEQ armies. They really are very good and I am trying hard not to use 2 in my army. Though ironically, I haven't had too much trouble playing against them, even against dual-heldrakes.
Tiarna Fuilteach wrote: Priests don't roll for red thirst, has it been FAQ'd that Abaddon can join marked units? Nice report, think with some more luck the blood angels could of had it
The part where Abaddon cannot join marked units is unclear. It hasn't been FAQ'd and the majority of people play it as he can.
But to be honest, I totally forgot about this issue as it was the first time I've used Abaddon. Otherwise, I would have brought it up with my opponent and we would have decided on how to play it before the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/09 17:14:20
Typhus and Zombies is much better than I thought, a more competitive list should be quite possible. with the right setup it could even cope with some flyers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/09 22:04:36
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/01/10 00:31:28
Subject: Re:1750 Double-Trouble Chaos vs FNP Blood Angels (Completed)
Maybe this is just my Daemons bias, but I never really ever bother to worry about coping with flyers. Armies that bring a lot of them like scythe spam are going to wreck any anti-flyer you have before it can do much. Armies that take 1 or 2 are not a huge problem because you can destroy the rest of the army and then focus on the flyers. With the movement rules for flyers it is also generally difficult for them to bring their full firepower to bear on a portion of the battlefield for more than 1 consecutive turn.
Great example is the Storm Raven which was force to hover after Turn 1.
Valek wrote: Typhus and Zombies is much better than I thought, a more competitive list should be quite possible. with the right setup it could even cope with some flyers.
I've always believed that Typhus + zombies could be competitive. They may not be a top-tier tournament build, but they can and will surprise a lot of people. They even surprised me this game!
calypso2ts wrote: Maybe this is just my Daemons bias, but I never really ever bother to worry about coping with flyers. Armies that bring a lot of them like scythe spam are going to wreck any anti-flyer you have before it can do much. Armies that take 1 or 2 are not a huge problem because you can destroy the rest of the army and then focus on the flyers. With the movement rules for flyers it is also generally difficult for them to bring their full firepower to bear on a portion of the battlefield for more than 1 consecutive turn.
Great example is the Storm Raven which was force to hover after Turn 1.
Personally, my philosophy is to always focus on 1) what really is necessary/important or 2) what you are good at. If you aren't good at shooting down flyers, then you go for the infantry/troops and let the flyers do their thing. What can you do? Just make sure you build your list with enough resiliency to survive their onslaught. That's why I like Typhus and zombies. They are my "anti-flyer" solution. Screw flyers. Have fun killing zombies. See if I care. Lol.
But seriously, that's how I've always handled my opponents. Back when SabrX was running his Immolator-spam sisters, I would always ignore his 3 exorcists because I wasn't really good at shooting them down (AV13 with cover?!?). Only after dealing with all his vehicles did I focus my AT on them. Same went with Reece's space wolves. I didn't have the ranged firepower to kill his long fangs so I just ignored them and killed every other unit in his army. Against Janthkin's army, forget about firing at a Iron Armed T8/9 tervigon. Normally I would go after them first but in this case, it just wasn't efficient to focus on them. Kill off the other dangerous units first and only when I had to, deal with his tervigon. The harliestar? Forget them. I'm wiping out all of Frankie's support units and troops. Flyers? Don't waste my time. To me, it's all about efficiency of offense. In most cases, kill the important units that are easier to kill first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 04:58:35
This is exactly what i did in objective games in 5th and has now become my standard mode of operations.
Wipe the scoring units of the table and everything that is not overtly difficult, then watch the opponent making faulty decissions and profit of those.
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
In order to fit Abaddon in, I had to get rid of my plague marines. 
I wouldn't consider this list to be very balanced. Heck, it probably isn't really any good either, but you know what? I think I'll have a blast playing it. And who knows, maybe I'll surprise myself.
for his daemon weapon.
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