Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lungpickle wrote:
Why on earth would the chaos gods award a looser with a boon.

Except he didn't lose. He slew his opponent and offered his life to the dark gods. Surely that is worthy of a reward?

Hero gives his life to stay a Chaos Champion, but the Dark Gods make his sacrifice for nothing by resurrecting the fallen champion as a Daemon Prince.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It say immediately... We can argue what is the definition of 'immediately' and how to properly apply the term all day and that is fine by me. To me it means as soon as the enemy character is slain which occurs prior to removing the Chaos champion.

Except, of course, that isnt what the rules say.

They are slain when you Remove Casualties

They are slain with the models wounds are reduced to 0. Then they are removed. The only argument is I say after it is reduced to 0. Something immediately happens (hint: boon roll). Then continue game after immediate action happens.

"If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty" P. 15

Removing the model as a casualty is just something that happens when the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, It is a cause an effect and the model is slain after it is removed because that means it is reduced to 0 wounds.

Once it hits 0 wounds you remove the model at that time, where the boon roll comes after the enemy is slain.

TK - nope, you are only slain when you are removed, as the rules tell you.

Personally i would allow a roll on the boon table. There are only 2 or 3 boons that would bring the model back to life - call itt he Chaos Gods deciding the character is too valuable to die or whatever.

I'll leave it to someone else to mathhammer out the odds on bringing the character back to life via a boon table roll. I'nm guessing the odds aren't great though.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty" P. 15

Removing the model as a casualty is just something that happens when the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, It is a cause an effect and the model is slain after it is removed because that means it is reduced to 0 wounds.

Once it hits 0 wounds you remove the model at that time, where the boon roll comes after the enemy is slain.

Cause and effect. Just devils advocate here.

Models reduced to 0 wounds are when they are slain. Effect they are removed.

Models reduced to 0 wounds are when they are slain. Effect Immediately roll on the boon table.

Two simultaneous effects here which do you think happens first?

Let me state this first, I am a Chaos player and all in favor of letting a Champion be revived right before death into a Daemon Prince or Spawn, but this is just going to come down to another argument of which triggers first:

1. The removal of the model as a result of 0 wounds
2. Rolling on the Chaos Boons chart.

However, as DeathReaper has quoted, from pg. 15 of the BRB:

"If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty"

Yes, you get to roll on the Boon table once you kill an enemy, however, here's the kicker to this...

Killing an enemy ONLY happens when it is removed as a casualty. NOT when it is reduced to 0 wounds.

Take precedence from the example of Necrons with WBB - models can be reduced to 0 wounds, but not be removed as a casualty, and then be resurrected. Likewise with Justicar Thawn - he only awards a VP for his death (in the KPs mission type) if he has not come back to life by the end of the game, not anytime during. Effectively, both "events" as above do not happen simultaneously.

As a result, this is the order of events as they happen:

1. Chaos Character reduces Enemy Character to 0 wounds. Enemy Character simultaneously reduces Chaos Character to 0 wounds at the same initiative step.
2. Both models are removed as casualties as per the rule on Pg. 15.
3. Both characters are considered "killed" when their models are removed.
4. Only when the characters are killed, which requires the removal of the model, can you THEN roll on the boons table "immediately".

Not that hard to figure out, really.

The rule for boon says to roll it immediately... nothing else can occur before that.

Lungpickle wrote:
Why on earth would the chaos gods award a looser with a boon.

Probably for the same reason they keep bringing lucius back.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule for boon says to roll it immediately... nothing else can occur before that.

Well done. Oh, apart from being slain, whcih has to happen first to trigger the boon roll. And being slain is being removed as a casualty

Immediately comes before removing the model. Nice try.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Immediately comes before removing the model. Nice try.

Wrong, the rule states that you roll immediately after the model has been slain. You need to remove the model for it to have been slain, hence my examples of Necron WBB and GK Justicar Thawn, which don't count as having been slain despite being reduced to 0 wounds because they can still come back. Nice try right back at you.

No it just says immediately.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
No it just says immediately.

Please read my above post.

A model doesn't count as being slain until the model has been removed as a casualty, which is only when "roll immediately" will happen.

Wow wow wow... come on and loosen up a bit. I don't agree with you.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Wow wow wow... come on and loosen up a bit. I don't agree with you.

... please back this up with ether rules or logic.

The modesl are removed as casualty ... roll on the boon table
1) there is no longer a place you can measure to for the spawn or dark prince options. If you cannot place them they are removed from play ... so problem solved.
2)Bloated the model is returned to full wounds... however he is no longer on the table without a rule to place him back there. End of the game models not on the table count as casualty.

So ether way cut it short he's dead.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Wow wow wow... come on and loosen up a bit. I don't agree with you.

So you dont have a rules argument, and this is simply how you would play it? Then designate it as such.

You dont agree, but not based on a rules argument, as you have yet to present one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Wow wow wow... come on and loosen up a bit. I don't agree with you.

So you dont have a rules argument, and this is simply how you would play it? Then designate it as such.

You dont agree, but not based on a rules argument, as you have yet to present one.

Dozer you may want to add something in your Sig about how you answer 80ish% of questions with HIWPI opposed to RAW.

Seriously though, I agree that the model is not slain unit it's RaaC.

I already explained it and I have the full support via the written rule. I urge to read the rules more closely.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I already explained it and I have the full support via the written rule. I urge to read the rules more closely.

I support your theorem on the fact that you roll "immediately", however, this "immediately" can only trigger upon the kill of an enemy character. This kill (where the model is removed) is an altogether separate step which happens between the model reaching 0 wounds and the rolling immediately. Please refer to my above post where I have listed out the sequence of events (and requoted at the bottom of this post for convenience). If you disagree with it, please disprove it with rules, either RAW or RAI and clear, sound logic, otherwise, you are merely stating HIWPI.

As a result, this is the order of events as they happen:

1. Chaos Character reduces Enemy Character to 0 wounds. Enemy Character simultaneously reduces Chaos Character to 0 wounds at the same initiative step.
2. Both models are removed as casualties as per the rule on Pg. 15.
3. Both characters are considered "killed" when their models are removed.
4. Only when the characters are killed, which requires the removal of the model, can you THEN roll on the boons table "immediately".

I guess another thing you could do is prove how rolling "immediately" comes before the removal of the model, which doesn't make sense, because a model is only considered truly killed/slain once it has been removed as a casualty unless otherwise stated, and you can't roll "immediately" until you've slain the other character.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I already explained it and I have the full support via the written rule. I urge to read the rules more closely.

No you don't, as you are rolling "immediately" before the model is actual slain, in your interpretation.

A model isnt slain until it is RaaC. You roll after that point, not before. You have zero rules support. Page and paragraph if you disagree.

Slaying (removing) a character and rolling in the chart are not simultaneous actions. One must happen before the other. They simply cannot happen at the same time.
So we have a sequence of events:
1). Champion slain (removed), enemy character slain (removed)
2). Roll on table.

Removing both characters is a simultaneous action as defined by the rules. Bot must occur before rolling on the chart. Rolling on the chart follows immediately (as stated in the boon rules).
But no results will benefit the character as it has been removed. Even turning I to a prince, as there are no rules for returning a model to play.

In game terms they can happen at the same time.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
In game terms they can happen at the same time.

Please back this up rather than just adding more to your post count...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
In game terms they can happen at the same time.

How?
In game terms they absolutely cannot happen simultaneously. One must happen before the other.
You can't roll on the chart until to slay a character. One must happen before the other.

Here is the correct sequence:

Chaos champion and enemy character destroy each other in a challenge

Immediately roll on the Chaos Boon table

If the Chaos character does not regain any wounds then remove from the table

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is the correct sequence:

Chaos champion and enemy character destroy each other in a challenge

Immediately roll on the Chaos Boon table

If the Chaos character does not regain any wounds then remove from the table

Please explain RAW how a model is slain before it is removed from the table.

Because the rule for CB says immediately.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Because the rule for CB says immediately.

Right, immediately when slain.
Which is after the models were removed from the table.

Immediately does NOT mean simultaneously.
It's the first action following an event.