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If we assume that Forgeworld's Imperial Armour books, overall, are officially sanctioned - as the Imperial Armour books themselves state

Where does this put Horus Heresy Betrayal? It entirely lacks any statement that its rules are officially sanctioned for standard 40k play.

So in an environment where Forgeworld's books that themselves state they are legal are all allowed... are the Legion Space Marines still play-legal?

Does the Imperial Armour book statements that they're officially sanctioned extend to a book that is neither IA, nor state itself that it's legal?

In other words, will we have to face the 70-odd plasma pistol hits of the Legion Centurion Moritat - the 100 point model who can and will single-handedly kill every single unit in the entire game of 40k that is not AV14 in a single shooting phase - and similar shenanigans that are exclusive to the Legion Space Marines?

FW have explicitly stated that the Heresy rules are NOT legal in standard 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mynamelegend wrote:
In other words, will we have to face the 70-odd plasma pistol hits of the Legion Centurion Moritat - the 100 point model who can and will single-handedly kill every single unit in the entire game of 40k that is not AV14 in a single shooting phase - and similar shenanigans that are exclusive to the Legion Space Marines?

I note that you conveniently overlook the fact that the moritat with typical equipment costs more than 100 points, requires a divination psyker which costs even more points, has a maximum of 12" range, and has to skip a turn of shooting after every attack. Sure it kills pretty much any unit in the game, but so does 3-400 points worth of melta/plasma CCS.

There's a guy at my LGS who's been playing a Legion list against normal 6th ed armies, so far the only times I've seen a Moritat played, he would wipe out one unit with his shooting ability, then was promptly killed because he had to overextend to kill the unit in question and became target #1 once the opponent saw what he could do.

Though I do have to admit, seeing a Daemon player yelp because of the apothecaries with the "I've been expecting you" style ability was kind of funny.

The HH books are designed to only be played with HH rules for the models. They are NOT good for normal 40k.

If you compare Legion Marines to their equivilant in standard 40k you will notice the HH marines are cheaper pointwise. Its designed for larger games, hence why the Squad sizes are huge.

FW have explicitly stated that the Heresy rules are NOT legal in standard 40k.

Where at? I'd love to see an actual post by them rather then this because I've yet to actually see it.

If you compare Legion Marines to their equivilant in standard 40k you will notice the HH marines are cheaper pointwise. Its designed for larger games, hence why the Squad sizes are huge.

They also don't have ATSKNF either, and CSM are more their equivalent. Their "Combat tactics" is replaced with legion rules, if being used.

Me and a few guys have played the HH armies against normal armies, the only iffy issue is the Lord of War slot, the extra elite slot would be a problem if space wolves didn't have double HQ.
Just cut the lord of war slot, and you're fine.

It wasn't that bad, HH armies arent that bad to fight, rather like CSM with a different type. They have issues of their own and are more akin to a more general based Codex Marines that can take far more.

FW have said it's not balanced with 40k in mind.

AFAIK there has been no official statement of legality yet.

But I can say I've been running my 30k Imperial Fists lately. No real problems. Players are a bit skeptical at first, but I let them read through what I've taken, explain some of the more odd bits.

No game has been remarkably one sided, nothing has felt particularly OP. And the players I've faced have enjoyed the new flavor of Space Marine that doesn't consist of GW going "Guys, lets take C:SM, then add all this other crap, and cheese it up 20%"'

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Where at? I'd love to see an actual post by them rather then this because I've yet to actually see it.

It's asked about once a week on their facebook page, and the answer is always "the Heresy army list is a stand-alone expansion and is not meant for normal games. You can agree to play a special Heresy vs. 40k game, but don't expect to just show up to a pickup game with it".

I am actually using my Imperial Fists Legion in a slow grow league against other 40k armies. Played 3 500 point games last week, was 1-2. The first game against Blood Angels was aweful simply because I could not hit a damn thing, and after losing 3 guys my ten man tactical squad decided to run off the board. Chalked it up to extremely bad dice rolling. Played the same guy again and beat him pretty soundly. Last game I faced off against foot guard and lost a very tight game because of the special mission rules we were playing at the end of turn 5. We decided to finish the game, and I pretty much had him tabled at the end. It was a lot of fun, prolly the most fun I have had playing that small of a game. I am not the best painter in the world but my preheresy army is starting to look pretty good. Picking up a few of the original beaky marines and going to strip them and repaint, looking forward to getting the missile launchers.

This concept of a Warhammer 40k "pickup game" makes me laugh. Professionals play pickup games, if you decided to drop 600-1000 bucks on a preheresy army and the normal guys you game with give you grief about using them you need to get a better group of guys to game with.

Its an oversized codex. Get over it, the mechanics are the exact same you move the same, you hit the same, you wound the same. You use the exact same missions and with only a slight tweak the FOC chart is the same, and Space Wolves already deviate from the standard FOC with their split HQ slots.

Betrayal is a work of art, pure and simple. Every unit have a purpose and can be built to that purpose. "Waaaaaaaaah! Your tactical units can take 20 guys", so what? They can't take special or heavy weapons, and are more likely to break than yours. "Waaaaaaah, you can have a unit with 10 plasma guns!!!!", yea again so what! That unit costs 325+ points. Thats a lot of points to spend on a single 10 man powered armour unit. One battle cannon shot and bam no more uber plasma unit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

FW have explicitly stated that the Heresy rules are NOT legal in standard 40k.

Where at? I'd love to see an actual post by them rather then this because I've yet to actually see it.

You need to turn that question around, I'm afraid. Where does it say you can use it?

The other IA books have a disclaimer about using them, with the standard discuss with your opponent if he'd be happy to play against FW units, blah, blah, blah.

Also, the newer books use the Stamped for 40k and Stamped for Apocalypse signifiers.

The Betrayal book does none of these things. However, the more I read through it, the less of a problem I'd have using this in standard games (with the exception of the super heavies and Primarchs).

 kronk wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

FW have explicitly stated that the Heresy rules are NOT legal in standard 40k.

Where at? I'd love to see an actual post by them rather then this because I've yet to actually see it.

You need to turn that question around, I'm afraid. Where does it say you can use it?

The other IA books have a disclaimer about using them, with the standard discuss with your opponent if he'd be happy to play against FW units, blah, blah, blah.

True enough I suppose, I just keep hearing about FW giving an actual opinion on the matter and I just wanna see what they said, nothing else really implied. I just find it easy to play 30k vs 40k and would usually ask beforehand if they want to try against it.

mynamelegend wrote:
In other words, will we have to face the 70-odd plasma pistol hits of the Legion Centurion Moritat - the 100 point model who can and will single-handedly kill every single unit in the entire game of 40k that is not AV14 in a single shooting phase - and similar shenanigans that are exclusive to the Legion Space Marines?

You mean the twenty-odd hits from a man who has to take a Wound from his own weapon every Shooting phase? The brokenness of the Moritat has been grossly overstated due to faulty math; he's nasty, but he's generally a one-shot suicide unit that requires both HQ slots and at absolute minimum 195pts for the Moritat and the Librarian, as well as being vulnerable to anti-psychic shenanigans (he has a 50% chance of stopping by three hits without the Divination Guide-thing) and a 1/3 chance of losing a Wound every time he fires.

Anyway, near as I can tell, the 30k armies are built to fight each other, not to fight the 40k armies; this suggests to my mind that interaction should be approached carefully, never tried in pick-up games, and generally avoided if possible.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Anyway, near as I can tell, the 30k armies are built to fight each other, not to fight the 40k armies; this suggests to my mind that interaction should be approached carefully, never tried in pick-up games, and generally avoided if possible.

They play ridiculously similarly to C:SM, and are more balanced than plenty of the other stuff in 40k right now.

I asked about this on the Forgeworld facebook page a month or so ago and was given a definite no. They're actually quite good at replying to that sort of thing. The problem wouldn't be the average list it would be the unstoppable cheese you could pull out if you really wanted to. I've played against someone with three contemptors with kheres assault cannons and that was bad enough so how about half a dozen!

 TheCaptain wrote:
FW have said it's not balanced with 40k in mind.

Like most of GW's codices.

I know some people who tried to play HH lists against 40k stuff. Worked pretty well and felt balanced enough.

Corin wrote:
I asked about this on the Forgeworld facebook page a month or so ago and was given a definite no. They're actually quite good at replying to that sort of thing. The problem wouldn't be the average list it would be the unstoppable cheese you could pull out if you really wanted to. I've played against someone with three contemptors with kheres assault cannons and that was bad enough so how about half a dozen!

Anyone who would do something like that, I wouldn't want to game with on a regular basis. Even still thats 615 points for the three contemptors, How many points were you guys playing? Had to of been at least 1850 to 2000. 6 would 1230 points. And you still have to have troops and an HQ in there.

There are ways to abuse the Legion units, but I am not playing a Legion army to win, I am playing a legion army because I love the Heresy and I love the units.