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 Manchu wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

I wonder, though, if it might be a kind of psychological issue -- basically like breaking morale but more along the lines of mass hysteria. Did the last Ethereal on the planet really die at that instant or was it simply the case that a group of Firewarriors experienced mass hysteria and explained it in terms of the last Ethereal dying? The other issue is that they are said to have instantly felt a sense of calm when, unknown to them based on visual cues, reinforcements including Ethereals, arrived. To me, the whole thing sounds like a cover up. We've got a major military blunder turned into a kind of spiritual myth. Whatever those Firewarriors experienced (and I think you're right, it seems unlikely to me to be an issue of pheromones or psychic sensitivity) was culturally determined by their a priori social and political reliance on the Ethereals.

I think that sounds perfectly logical.

It both fits the thinking method of the characters involved, and the more global, over-aching methodology of the Tau coalition.

Yeah. One wonders if the Tau themselves have the cultural vocabulary to explain incidents like this as anything other than hinging on the Ethereals. It's kind of like how we suspect medieval stories of werewolves grew out of actual cases of serial killers -- except those medieval people did not have the vocabulary of modern psychology and criminology so they explained it in terms that they did have, as in the Plautine anaology "homo homini lupus."

I think that you may be looking back through the eyes of an educated person now, and imposing a certain undue level of ignorance on the population of medieval world.

Sometimes I grant you, a more primitive explanation is due to lack of understanding, or evidence. But sometimes it is just the nature of men to differ in thinking. Two men, when faced with identical facts and evidence, can and often do reach different conclusions. It isn't that the facts themselves have changed, its that they are up for interpretation.

If in the real world the sky were to open and lightening and thunder racked while the heavens reformed to spell the words "Judgement is nigh!" people (who all having seen the same thing) would reach radically different conclusions. I am certain that some men would throw up their arms and run to the nearest church/temple/etc, while other men would probably contemplate what a striking and unusual weather phenomena had just occurred.

And who's to say who is right?

The facts we are presented with in the game are that the Tau experienced an adverse affect similar to the symptoms of withdrawal when the Ethereals were removed from proximity. The symptoms disappeared when new Ethereals were reintroduced into proximity.

Could be hormones. Could be Psychic powers. Could be that the Tau are really a new breed of Tyranids in disguise and are all connected via synaptic links...

The interpretations are all that matters in this discussion and I think that Manchu hit the nail on the head by finding a way to "explain away" the occurrence in a way that fits in the 40k universe without being damaging to other, existing bits of fluff.

En Excelsis wrote:
I think that you may be looking back through the eyes of an educated person now, and imposing a certain undue level of ignorance on the population of medieval world.

Well, I don't mean that medieval people literally believed in werewolves like we have in movies. I think that "silliness" is our modern invention. Their own conception of werewolves seems to me to be an extremely sophisticated insight (which is why I brought up the quotation from Plautus) but at the same time it's not expressed in a vocabulary we recognize and therefore we might say "werewolf? don't be ridiculous!" But that's because we're thinking of our werewolves rather than their werewolves. Because we have the concept of "serial killer," the concept of "werewolf" can mean something else to us -- something more literal, I think, than medieval people were thinking.

En Excelsis wrote:
Could be hormones. Could be Psychic powers. Could be that the Tau are really a new breed of Tyranids in disguise and are all connected via synaptic links...

Yep. My own approach to the 40k world is to apply Occam's Razor. We could explain this incident in a complex way using psychic powers or pheromones for which we have no other evidence (and even contrary evidence) but could there be a simpler, in the factual sense even if it seems "invisible," explanation? I think so: namely, the Tau conceive of the world primarily through the lens of their social structure -- which is built entirely around the existence and philosophy of the Ethereals.

In the grim future of 40k, there is no such thing as charisma, just pheromones and mind control
Primarchs revered by Space Marines? Pheromones.
Emperor worshipped? Mind control.
Waaagh Boss? Okay, pure violence

Well Sir William Hamilton definitely had it right.

It is for those reasons that I made my earlier statements. And I stand by them.

I remain adamant that the typical Imperial citizen would be repulsed by the Tau and reject their ideology. "The Greater Good" as the OP suggests, does not fit in the rigid Imperial way of thinking. It conflicts with it on nearly every level. It is too many leaps in logic, or assumptions, to assert that the Tau could or would take some action that could or would dissuade a person from their natural allegiance, when that more natural state is what the game has provided you with default

One of the to topes GW likes to pull out with regard to the tau is that maybe the universe isn't as grim dark as it seems to the IoM. That it's not the universe that's crazy and evil, but the IoM is just to blind to how the universe actually works.

nomotog wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

That's because it is not there. At no point in the text does it say they regain control of themselves before the hunter cadres show up. All the Commander did was give them all something to attack.


Let's consider this:

It's not psychic. Tau are, as you say yourself, not a psychically receptive race.

It's not pheromones. Tau battlesuits are NCB sealed. Pheromones would never get through. (even leaving out the whole and they fight in space and under water thing)

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

It's magic. I swear.

It is actually. Seriously. Humans can't figure it out because they're looking for a human equvilant. There isn't one, it's just something uniquely Tau.

Excellent point, KC.

nomotog wrote:
One of the to topes GW likes to pull out with regard to the tau is that maybe the universe isn't as grim dark as it seems to the IoM. That it's not the universe that's crazy and evil, but the IoM is just to blind to how the universe actually works.

You can't really blame them, to be honest.

The Imperium is positively massive, spanning most of the Galaxy. That's millions of star systems and millions of colonized planets. The diversity is extreme, and you can't go from one planet to another expecting the same kind of people and culture. And on top of that, not even the administratum can comprehend the size of their own bureucratic systems,

So, the point I'm trying to get to is that among the millions of colonies there can be a human version of the Greater Good, formed to include the Emperor. As long as you pay your tithes and say your prayers, the Imperium doesn't really care about the societal structure that much. There can be hundreds of thousands of variations. Functional, disfunctional, capitalistic, communist, tribal, and the list goes on.

EDIT: Even those who are pro-alien/mutant, but if the Inquisition gets any wind of that, Dark Heresy players have a campaign the next night.

Also, the basic Tau citizen probably doesn't think about the galaxy that much either. He's got his work, his friends and his hobbies... Not much time left to ponder about the vastness of the cosmos.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
It is actually. Seriously. Humans can't figure it out because they're looking for a human equvilant. There isn't one, it's just something uniquely Tau.

Not to play the Devil's advocate, but I would cite the Blood Angels. The moment their Primarch was killed the Black Rage struck his chapter. Now, mind you humans are psychic beings, albeit on a smaller scale than the Eldar or Orks, but still psychic. That being said, GW has never explicitly stated the Black Rage is or is not a psychic.

Beyond that I agree. It's mostly just futile to argue that particular point any further.

nomotog wrote:
One of the to topes GW likes to pull out with regard to the tau is that maybe the universe isn't as grim dark as it seems to the IoM. That it's not the universe that's crazy and evil, but the IoM is just to blind to how the universe actually works.

I would like to respectfully request that you bury whatever issue you have the the IoM. The rest of us are attempting to be objective and spamming Anti-IoM jargon is neither constructive nor relevant.

The game of Warhammer 40k is not played through the eyes of the IoM. They are but one of it's many characters. That being said, the grimdark most certainly applies to all the races.

The BA are hardly relevant to the experience of the Tau ...

Yes, we know what happened to the Blood Angels. A psychic event scarred their DNA/souls.

Tau Etherals use space magic. Don't make get all scientific up in here!

Waaaait a minute!

At the beginning of the 40k timeline, Earth was split into warring techno-barbarian tribes.

Then Emperor showed up, kicked some ass and united humanity.

Doesn't that sound kind of what the Ethereals did, minus the ass-kicking of course? The Emperor was born to protect humanity from the growing threat of Chaos and the Ethereals appeared to protect the Tau from self-destruction, both guiding their people to an age of prosperity.

So I guess the two aren't that different in terms of origin. So how about a hug?

How dare you compare heroic humans with dirty communists
Next you say the Tau race concept was inspire by Asian peoples
Charisma is damn alien magic, information spreading is damn alien magic. Peace is evil mind control, only frothing psychopaths are good people

Poor, poor Kroothawk. Constantly persecuted by imaginary strawman arguments. It's a tough job but someone has to do it.

 Kroothawk wrote:
How dare you compare heroic humans with dirty communists
Next you say the Tau race concept was inspire by Asian peoples
Charisma is damn alien magic, information spreading is damn alien magic. Peace is evil mind control, only frothing psychopaths are good people

I like you.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
KETTLE, HOW BLACK THOU ART!

Fixed.

Why do they do it?

Because for all the nobility of "better to die on your feet, than live on your knees", LIVING on your knees is actually better than dying.

"Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel
Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still."

- "Silent Running", Mike & the mechanics.

Whilst you live, rebellion is still possible and your children or theirs have *that* chance. If you die, here and now, that chance is gone.

Also, tbh, most imperial citizens don't care much about who rules them as long as they are fed and sheltered.

 chromedog wrote:
Why do they do it?

Because for all the nobility of "better to die on your feet, than live on your knees", LIVING on your knees is actually better than dying.

"Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel
Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still."

- "Silent Running", Mike & the mechanics.

Whilst you live, rebellion is still possible and your children or theirs have *that* chance. If you die, here
and now, that chance is gone.

Also, tbh, most imperial citizens don't care much about who rules them as long as they are fed and sheltered.

Really living on your knees is better than dying well remind me never to call on you to fight for a cause (just playing with you ), but in a galaxy in which there are a lot of fates worse than death. Dying is actually better, though I don't enough about the tau's citizenship programs for humans to say if living under the tau would truly be better than the IOM.

Lumipon wrote:
Waaaait a minute!

At the beginning of the 40k timeline, Earth was split into warring techno-barbarian tribes.

Then Emperor showed up, kicked some ass and united humanity.

Doesn't that sound kind of what the Ethereals did, minus the ass-kicking of course? The Emperor was born to protect humanity from the growing threat of Chaos and the Ethereals appeared to protect the Tau from self-destruction, both guiding their people to an age of prosperity.

So I guess the two aren't that different in terms of origin. So how about a hug?

At the founding of the Imperium, the Emperor was some 38 thousand years old, being a warp entity crafted by/from human psykers and incarnating in a human body.

The Ethereals appeared out of thin air, and way back when before the wardcrons seemed to be a creation of the deceiver, with the tau themselves appearing to be a new rendition of the original necrontyr (short lived, no warp presence, physical similarities between the tau and the artifial bodies the necrontyr later inhabitted, etc).


More specifically on topic: widespread acceptance of Tau regimes amongst a human populace has been tied to genestealer cults attempting to sow political discord in at least one case, which is also the only case I know of that deals specifically with the local populous' acceptance or lack thereof of Tau leadership. The other specific case regarding Tau occupation of a human world involved local power figures trading with them out of personal greed, then freaking out and demanding military protection when the Imperium didn't take kindly to their theft of resources.

The Inquisition considers Tau ideology a massive subversive threat that could materially harm the war effort against the Tyranids (the Tau empire being too small and feeble to do more than just interfere with the larger issues), but it's not clear if it actually takes root amongst the people on its own, or if it grows largely as a result of corrupt local authorities seeking more favorable trade with the Tau.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
KETTLE, HOW BLACK THOU ART!

Fixed.

For you. I'm glad that makes sense to you.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
KETTLE, HOW BLACK THOU ART!

Fixed.

For you. I'm glad that makes sense to you.

I'm... actually pretty damn certain it made sense to more than a few people, actually.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
KETTLE, HOW BLACK THOU ART!

Fixed.

For you. I'm glad that makes sense to you.

When someone says a strawman is being used I change the text of their post, completely oblivious to the irony of that.

Fixed that for you.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
KETTLE, HOW BLACK THOU ART!

Fixed.

For you. I'm glad that makes sense to you.

When someone says a strawman is being used I change the text of their post, completely oblivious to the irony of that.

I changed the text of the post, completely ignoring the fact that The Baron was making reference to the fact that I, KamikazeCanuk, have been caught using a strawman in the past when it suited my position and will probably again in the future at some point, in my efforts to pretend to be superior to my fellow posters. Thus I am the Pot Calling the Kettle Black

Fixed that for you. Not that, at this point in the stupidity, I am not also guilty. Normally I just have you on ignore.

Yes, somehow when I said the aforementioned poster is lifting a bare minimum of other people's words so that he may preemptively refute his version of their future points was a strawman it was some sort of super meta strawman by me. I guess all I can really do is take that as a compliment of how clever you think I am.

By all means Baron put me on your ignore list I think that would be the best thing for both of us.

Why don't the Tau meet the fate of other Xenos? Because the Imperiums gone soft and every part that has'nt has been polluted with religous nonsense, ignorance, and outright lies.
Put the Night Haunter, the Red Angel, or the Wolf King in charge and the so called greater good would be nothing but a smoking ruin.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Why don't the Tau meet the fate of other Xenos? Because the Imperiums gone soft and every part that has'nt has been polluted with religous nonsense, ignorance, and outright lies.
Put the Night Haunter, the Red Angel, or the Wolf King in charge and the so called greater good would be nothing but a smoking ruin.

When the imperium first attempted to cull the Tau they got surrounded by a warp storm cutting them off.

Now they have fortified their worlds and made massive leaps in their tech levels and it is currently judged to be too resource heavy a mission due to the presence of the tyranids, what do you think the Damocles Gulf Crusade was all about anyway?

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Why don't the Tau meet the fate of other Xenos? Because the Imperiums gone soft and every part that has'nt has been polluted with religous nonsense, ignorance, and outright lies.
Put the Night Haunter, the Red Angel, or the Wolf King in charge and the so called greater good would be nothing but a smoking ruin.

You enjoy fantasising about a good old genocide, do you?

 Manchu wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:
I think that you may be looking back through the eyes of an educated person now, and imposing a certain undue level of ignorance on the population of medieval world.

Well, I don't mean that medieval people literally believed in werewolves like we have in movies. I think that "silliness" is our modern invention. Their own conception of werewolves seems to me to be an extremely sophisticated insight (which is why I brought up the quotation from Plautus) but at the same time it's not expressed in a vocabulary we recognize and therefore we might say "werewolf? don't be ridiculous!" But that's because we're thinking of our werewolves rather than their werewolves.

Quite a lot that makes no sense to us now made perfect sense to people living in those times.

Werewolf? Old Norse/Germanic law could declare you a "vargr", or wolf, for particularly heinous crimes like arson, murder and things like not paying the weregild for a slaying. You'd be an outcast without the protection of any laws. Anyone that happened to slay you would be automaticaly exonerated as long as he publicly declared he put you down. As christianity spread and other old legends were stamped out or changed to fit the church one could see how the outlaw vargr became werewolf in the stories.