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Question:

I thought people were more accepting of the Tau now? Ever since they showed that they were worthy of diplomatic relations with the SM and IG and able to defeat them in a battle.

I got on board with 40k late, so I don't have this grudge towards the Tau that some people to. They're noble enough from my point of view, and should be praised for escalating quickly up the evolutionary scale. They remind me of the Eldar, but with better firepower, and better leaders. I know in the video game: Dawn of War, the tau were a formidable foe that most Space Marines players had trouble with.

I consider the Tau more of a backbencher race. The Imperium may decide to finish them off eventually, but they're not really a threat to they're not dealth with. Also they can be usefull helping to fight tyranids.

Like in the last nid invasion where they "helped" by fortifying several imperial worlds not in the path of the tendril. I have recently started to question the logic behind the tau shield idea. It's like protecting yourself from bullets by setting yourself on fire.

 Nasakenai wrote:
I consider the Tau more of a backbencher race. The Imperium may decide to finish them off eventually, but they're not really a threat to they're not dealth with. Also they can be usefull helping to fight tyranids.

This is like saying "The Imperium is a backbencher race because the Orks may decide to finish them off eventually, in the meantime, the Imperium isn't really a threat to the Orks." While completely true, it just can't happen because Orks are too busy everywhere else in the galaxy.

It's a similar dynamic between the Imperium and Tau. The Imperium would love to finish them off and it's theoretically possible, but to commit the required army for such a massive task would be to sacrifice hundreds of worlds to Chaos/Tyranid/Ork/Necron/Eldar/etc.

On Topic: I think non-Tau who accept The Greater Good do not see it as an alien ideology, or even a Tau concept. To them, Tau are just the messengers. Testifiers, if you will. It's not even a religion. They're probably even free to practice their own emperor-worshiping religion under the greater good, minus the close-mindedness, zealotry and persecuting. The Greater Good is an intuitive, constructive lifestyle that allows free agency. The Tau don't own it, they're just living proof of the results.

nomotog wrote:
Like in the last nid invasion where they "helped" by fortifying several imperial worlds not in the path of the tendril. I have recently started to question the logic behind the tau shield idea. It's like protecting yourself from bullets by setting yourself on fire.

Tau offering themselves as Imperial meat shields and building fortifications is like Tyranids becoming vegetarians and building computer centers for Space Marines.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Tau offering themselves as Imperial meat shields and building fortifications is like Tyranids becoming vegetarians and building computer centers for Space Marines.

The Tau got astropaths out of the deal, giving them something they had lacked, real time ftl communication. It also gave them access to an Imperial Forge world (much to the absolute horror of the tech magi in command) and close up examinations of IN starships. So it does make sense.

 Kroothawk wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Like in the last nid invasion where they "helped" by fortifying several imperial worlds not in the path of the tendril. I have recently started to question the logic behind the tau shield idea. It's like protecting yourself from bullets by setting yourself on fire.

Tau offering themselves as Imperial meat shields and building fortifications is like Tyranids becoming vegetarians and building computer centers for Space Marines.

You are missing the joke.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

The Tau got astropaths out of the deal, giving them something they had lacked, real time ftl communication. It also gave them access to an Imperial Forge world (much to the absolute horror of the tech magi in command) and close up examinations of IN starships. So it does make sense.

When and how did this happen? I can't imagine the Mechanicus taking the loss of any Forgeworld lightly.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

The Tau got astropaths out of the deal, giving them something they had lacked, real time ftl communication. It also gave them access to an Imperial Forge world (much to the absolute horror of the tech magi in command) and close up examinations of IN starships. So it does make sense.

When and how did this happen? I can't imagine the Mechanicus taking the loss of any Forgeworld lightly.

Only in "baronIveagh40k" ...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Tau offering themselves as Imperial meat shields and building fortifications is like Tyranids becoming vegetarians and building computer centers for Space Marines.

The Tau got astropaths out of the deal, giving them something they had lacked, real time ftl communication. It also gave them access to an Imperial Forge world (much to the absolute horror of the tech magi in command) and close up examinations of IN starships. So it does make sense.

I'm not sure the Tau would trade lives for a close-up look at inferior technology. The most they'd get is confirmation of what they already knew: Imperial military tech sucks dusty blue Tau balls.

"Yup, just as we suspected - more clubs with nails in them. Good thing we lost so many lives to learn about this valuable technology..."

 Archonate wrote:
I'm not sure the Tau would trade lives for a close-up look at inferior technology. The most they'd get is confirmation of what they already knew: Imperial military tech sucks dusty blue Tau balls.

Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium. Imperial laser technology is also superior. Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology. Only in three areas do the Tau excel over the Imperium: plasma, anti-gravity, and AI technology.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium.

Fair to say. But it can be argued that without Navigators or the Astronomican, the Imperium would have no Warp travel period... Whereas the Tau have engineered ways around such dependencies.

Imperial laser technology is also superior.

I assume you have a source to back this claim up? I mean, laser technology is pretty simple. As I understand it, Tau have decided that their use of plasma and electromagnetic weaponry yields better results and requires less power. I think if the Imperium had better laser tech, then they would be the ones with Markerlights... But the concept of laser guidance is too advanced for them. They only know how to produce simple hot lasers.

Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology.

I hear this a lot, but in all the fluff studying I've done on the subject, I find this claim completely untenable, except by the rabid anti-Tau movement who's justifications wander down strange paths, far outside the established canon.

I have heard the two techs compared to Miscrosoft and Apple.
The Imperium gets things done with lots of power cords and clutter.
The Tau get the same job done without all the mess.
Which would just make it mostly a matter of aesthetics. Tau getting the same jobs done with neater, more compact devices.
I can't decide whether that's an accurate parallel or not though.

 Archonate wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium.

Fair to say. But it can be argued that without Navigators or the Astronomican, the Imperium would have no Warp travel period... Whereas the Tau have engineered ways around such dependencies.

The Imperium/Humans can perform short-range jumps which are still faster than Tau jumps because Imperial/Human Warp technology allows them to enter the Warp fully, whereas the Tau just 'surf' the surface. Furthermore, pyskers; Humans/Imperials field them. Tau can't. Therefore, Imperial/Human understanding and application of the Warp must be superior.

Imperial laser technology is also superior.

I assume you have a source to back this claim up? I mean, laser technology is pretty simple. As I understand it, Tau have decided that their use of plasma and electromagnetic weaponry yields better results and requires less power. I think if the Imperium had better laser tech, then they would be the ones with Markerlights... But the concept of laser guidance is too advanced for them. They only know how to produce simple hot lasers.

Modern militaries make extensive use of laser range-finders/guidance but can't mass produce/use laser weaponry. The same goes for the Tau. The Imperium can though, and the Imperium does make use of laser range-finders. In a Gaunt's Ghosts novel, an Imperial tank commander notes with disapproval that Chaos tanks in the Sabbat Worlds are inferior in that they lack auspex guidance and laser range-finders. I'd even argue that Imperial sensor technology is superior to the Tau, as auspexes are composed of multiple sensors capableof being calibrated for a variety of purposes.

Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology.

I hear this a lot, but in all the fluff studying I've done on the subject, I find this claim completely untenable, except by the rabid anti-Tau movement who's justifications wander down strange paths, far outside the established canon.

A matter of opinion. IMO, the Imperium has been around a lot longer and has faced worse foes than the Tau for that long, so therefore Imperial technology is superior in most regards.

Just to weigh in on the laser technology point and marker light systems.

Yes the IoM advances in laser weapon applications is far superior to the Tau, seeing as the Tau have no laser weapons to speak of.

And I to have read about IG tanks and such with laser range finders, so on that level, the IoM may have a parity of tech, BUT...

The Markerlight is only the tip of a very advanced intergated warfighting system that every Tau unit can tap into, from firewarriors to hammerheads, to Mantas and barracudas, everything is able to acess the data one markerlight can discern, from calling in a Seeker missle from extreme distance, to allowing precise shots from individual firewarriors, the markerlight as it stands ingame is beyond any handheld auspex or laser range finder that the IoM may deploy, as it is reflected in game.

One point some of my buddies made is how a markerlight can help with pinning tests is it may have a visible setting and a invisible one, one set as a visible light it would cause soldiers that realize what it is to go to ground and avoid the little red dot, and the more dots the more people will be hitting the dirt. (some of my buddies are to smart )

The above is quite a acheivement, and one we are actually working on in RL with the FELIN and Land warrior systems, but no where as intergrated as the Tau have (but thats why its called sci-fi )

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yes the IoM advances in laser weapon applications is far superior to the Tau, seeing as the Tau have no laser weapons to speak of.

TBH, I find laser weaponry more attractive than plasma. Even with safer Tau plasma tech, I still think I'd go for a Lasgun than a Pulse Rifle. Just a matter of personal taste I guess. Though I'd argue that a long-las sniper rifle has even more destructive power than a Pulse Rifle

The Markerlight is only the tip of a very advanced intergated warfighting system that every Tau unit can tap into, from firewarriors to hammerheads, to Mantas and barracudas, everything is able to acess the data one markerlight can discern, from calling in a Seeker missle from extreme distance, to allowing precise shots from individual firewarriors, the markerlight as it stands ingame is beyond any handheld auspex or laser range finder that the IoM may deploy, as it is reflected in game.

One point some of my buddies made is how a markerlight can help with pinning tests is it may have a visible setting and a invisible one, one set as a visible light it would cause soldiers that realize what it is to go to ground and avoid the little red dot, and the more dots the more people will be hitting the dirt. (some of my buddies are to smart )

The above is quite a acheivement, and one we are actually working on in RL with the FELIN and Land warrior systems, but no where as intergrated as the Tau have (but thats why its called sci-fi )

Interesting argument. However, I'd argue that this is because Tau and modern militaries don't operate as vast hordes, but rather as highly mobile strike forces. Probably why the Imperials don't make use of such types of technology is because of Imperial preference for mass rather than mobility (except for Space Marines).

EDIT: Hey wait, I thought Land Warrior was shut down?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yes the IoM advances in laser weapon applications is far superior to the Tau, seeing as the Tau have no laser weapons to speak of.

TBH, I find laser weaponry more attractive than plasma. Even with safer Tau plasma tech, I still think I'd go for a Lasgun than a Pulse Rifle. Just a matter of personal taste I guess. Though I'd argue that a long-las sniper rifle has even more destructive power than a Pulse Rifle

The Markerlight is only the tip of a very advanced intergated warfighting system that every Tau unit can tap into, from firewarriors to hammerheads, to Mantas and barracudas, everything is able to acess the data one markerlight can discern, from calling in a Seeker missle from extreme distance, to allowing precise shots from individual firewarriors, the markerlight as it stands ingame is beyond any handheld auspex or laser range finder that the IoM may deploy, as it is reflected in game.

One point some of my buddies made is how a markerlight can help with pinning tests is it may have a visible setting and a invisible one, one set as a visible light it would cause soldiers that realize what it is to go to ground and avoid the little red dot, and the more dots the more people will be hitting the dirt. (some of my buddies are to smart )

The above is quite a acheivement, and one we are actually working on in RL with the FELIN and Land warrior systems, but no where as intergrated as the Tau have (but thats why its called sci-fi )

Interesting argument. However, I'd argue that this is because Tau and modern militaries don't operate as vast hordes, but rather as highly mobile strike forces. Probably why the Imperials don't make use of such types of technology is because of Imperial preference for mass rather than mobility (except for Space Marines).

EDIT: Hey wait, I thought Land Warrior was shut down?

Nope its just called FFW now, and the tau use a Railrifle as their answer to a longlas.

The IG dont make use of this kind of system for likely many reasons, it likely requires a high level of computer acess (something the IoM seems to shy away from) and its to expense to implement in the scope of the IG, and it could just be the IoM has lost the STC for whatever it is that makes the markersystem work cross platform, who knows, but we are talking tech here not doctrine.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium. Imperial laser technology is also superior. Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology. Only in three areas do the Tau excel over the Imperium: plasma, anti-gravity, and AI technology.

You missed a fourth area: not being absolutely insane in your vehicle designs. Just look at a Leman Russ: suicidally high profile, no suspension at all (so no shooting on the move), poor speed, etc. Same with everything else, the Imperium apparently hasn't learned anything about tank design since WWI.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium. Imperial laser technology is also superior. Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology. Only in three areas do the Tau excel over the Imperium: plasma, anti-gravity, and AI technology.

You missed a fourth area: not being absolutely insane in your vehicle designs. Just look at a Leman Russ: suicidally high profile, no suspension at all (so no shooting on the move), poor speed, etc. Same with everything else, the Imperium apparently hasn't learned anything about tank design since WWI.

Ignore the visual design. It doesn't match the fluff, so it's better to just ignore the idiotic visual design and go with what the fluff says.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Ignore the visual design. It doesn't match the fluff, so it's better to just ignore the idiotic visual design and go with what the fluff says.

Why isn't it better to ignore the fluff and go with the visual design? Why should we assume competence from an insane theocracy that hates the entire concepts of science and engineering?

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:


Nope its just called FFW now, and the tau use a Railrifle as their answer to a longlas.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Ignore the visual design. It doesn't match the fluff, so it's better to just ignore the idiotic visual design and go with what the fluff says.

Why isn't it better to ignore the fluff and go with the visual design? Why should we assume competence from an insane theocracy that hates the entire concepts of science and engineering?

That's up to you, but while I take a very negative view of the Ecclesiarchy, I don't outright condemn the Imperium and try to rationalize it's situation and the contradictions within the setting.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium. Imperial laser technology is also superior. Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology. Only in three areas do the Tau excel over the Imperium: plasma, anti-gravity, and AI technology.

You missed a fourth area: not being absolutely insane in your vehicle designs. Just look at a Leman Russ: suicidally high profile, no suspension at all (so no shooting on the move), poor speed, etc. Same with everything else, the Imperium apparently hasn't learned anything about tank design since WWI.

The IoM isn't the only one withe poorly thought out vehicles. Tau gunships have there main guns on top rather then bottom where they make sense. A hammerhead would have to fly upside down to fire it's main gun. Not to mention it would need a another set of booster to turn and angle with any kind of agility.

nomotog wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium. Imperial laser technology is also superior. Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology. Only in three areas do the Tau excel over the Imperium: plasma, anti-gravity, and AI technology.

You missed a fourth area: not being absolutely insane in your vehicle designs. Just look at a Leman Russ: suicidally high profile, no suspension at all (so no shooting on the move), poor speed, etc. Same with everything else, the Imperium apparently hasn't learned anything about tank design since WWI.

The IoM isn't the only one withe poorly thought out vehicles. Tau gunships have there main guns on top rather then bottom where they make sense. A hammerhead would have to fly upside down to fire it's main gun. Not to mention it would need a another set of booster to turn and angle with any kind of agility.

The Hammerhead is kinda a weird combo of MBT and Osprey IMO, its antigrav gives it lift and a form of boyancy, and its vectored engines provide the thrust and manuvering (in sort of the manner of a Osprey tilt rotar craft), and the turret on top makes sense if the craft ever wants to take advantage of terrain to cover its hull, or pop up attacks, something that would be impossible if the turret was mounted on its belly, since you would have to expose the entire craft to attack.

So its design kinda makes sense, not really sure if GW put that much thought into it but oh well, its main weakness is the manuver engines and the intakes on those, in the manner of heli, everything has drawbacks, its still a cool design without being a bit to space magicy or grimdark lets rivet everything together .

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That's up to you, but while I take a very negative view of the Ecclesiarchy, I don't outright condemn the Imperium and try to rationalize it's situation and the contradictions within the setting.

What's your point? The fluff explicitly states that the Imperium bans science and engineering and considers improving a design (or even understanding it beyond the approved rituals) heresy punishable by death. So which is more likely:

1) Every visual representation we've seen of the Leman Russ (and other vehicles), including art which is not constrained by the limits of plastic kits, is completely wrong and the real tank looks nothing like what GW says it does.

or

2) The Leman Russ is just a terrible design kept in use because it comes from the sacred STC.

I think the answer here is pretty obvious. Unless you come in with the specific intent of making the Imperium look good at all costs #2 is the only option that makes sense.

nomotog wrote:
The IoM isn't the only one withe poorly thought out vehicles. Tau gunships have there main guns on top rather then bottom where they make sense. A hammerhead would have to fly upside down to fire it's main gun. Not to mention it would need a another set of booster to turn and angle with any kind of agility.

But remember, the Hammerhead is a low-level tank, not a true gunship like a Vulture. It's not as fast (probably thanks to all that extra armor) as a true aircraft, and uses its hover ability more for mobility over rough terrain than flat-out speed. If it's hovering close to the ground (and making good use of cover) the main gun has no problem pivoting down far enough to hit anything more than a few feet away from its hull. And for dealing with infantry, the only thing small enough to hide in the main gun's small blind spot, the Hammerhead has low-mounted secondary weapons.

As for turning, the obvious answer is that it can turn using its antigravity.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That's up to you, but while I take a very negative view of the Ecclesiarchy, I don't outright condemn the Imperium and try to rationalize it's situation and the contradictions within the setting.

What's your point? The fluff explicitly states that the Imperium bans science and engineering and considers improving a design (or even understanding it beyond the approved rituals) heresy punishable by death. So which is more likely:

1) Every visual representation we've seen of the Leman Russ (and other vehicles), including art which is not constrained by the limits of plastic kits, is completely wrong and the real tank looks nothing like what GW says it does.

or

2) The Leman Russ is just a terrible design kept in use because it comes from the sacred STC.

I think the answer here is pretty obvious. Unless you come in with the specific intent of making the Imperium look good at all costs #1 is the only option that makes sense.

Duh, number one is basically what I meant.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Duh, number one is basically what I meant.

That was a typo. I meant that #2 is the only one that makes any sense. There's no way to justify throwing out every visual representation of Imperial vehicles just because it makes them look bad.

Also by having a turret on its underside, it can no longer land. It has landing feet. So its safe to presume its not permanently hovering.

^^For you maybe, but not for me

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

One thing I have always supported is the equipment vrs doctrine argument, most modern militaries are provided with vehicles and equipment that are designed to implement their chosen combat doctrines.

The IoM over the thousands of years since its heyday, have had to make the equipment fit the doctrine, and as its been centuries of practice those have now become set in stone.

The Leman Russ is perfectly designed to support IG battlefield stratgies, slow lumbering, heavily armored nd heavily armed, its basically a trench fighting tank, and is supported by huge numbers of infantry, and specialized support, its design may have become so rooted in the IG doctrine that any wholesale changes to it would sort of tip the apple cart

And although the IG also has more adile formations in its vast structure those are usually the exception not the rule (Elysians and Harkoni).

So the Leman Russ is what it is, ugly ungainly, but perfectly built for the IoM way of fighting.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium. Imperial laser technology is also superior. Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology. Only in three areas do the Tau excel over the Imperium: plasma, anti-gravity, and AI technology.

You missed a fourth area: not being absolutely insane in your vehicle designs. Just look at a Leman Russ: suicidally high profile, no suspension at all (so no shooting on the move), poor speed, etc. Same with everything else, the Imperium apparently hasn't learned anything about tank design since WWI.

The IoM isn't the only one withe poorly thought out vehicles. Tau gunships have there main guns on top rather then bottom where they make sense. A hammerhead would have to fly upside down to fire it's main gun. Not to mention it would need a another set of booster to turn and angle with any kind of agility.

The Hammerhead is kinda a weird combo of MBT and Osprey IMO, its antigrav gives it lift and a form of boyancy, and its vectored engines provide the thrust and manuvering (in sort of the manner of a Osprey tilt rotar craft), and the turret on top makes sense if the craft ever wants to take advantage of terrain to cover its hull, or pop up attacks, something that would be impossible if the turret was mounted on its belly, since you would have to expose the entire craft to attack.

So its design kinda makes sense, not really sure if GW put that much thought into it but oh well, its main weakness is the manuver engines and the intakes on those, in the manner of heli, everything has drawbacks, its still a cool design without being a bit to space magicy or grimdark lets rivet everything together .

Not the worst design by a log shot.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Imperial Warp technology is to the Tau what Eldar Warp technology is to the Imperium. Imperial laser technology is also superior. Most Imperial technology is actually superior to Tau technology. Only in three areas do the Tau excel over the Imperium: plasma, anti-gravity, and AI technology.

You missed a fourth area: not being absolutely insane in your vehicle designs. Just look at a Leman Russ: suicidally high profile, no suspension at all (so no shooting on the move), poor speed, etc. Same with everything else, the Imperium apparently hasn't learned anything about tank design since WWI.

And yet it's the single best main battle tank in the entire setting (which, it should be noted, most certainly can fire on the move, including on the tabletop where vehicles are deliberately gimped for balance reasons). How advanced must the tech inside be to more than counter the glaring design flaws?