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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
Believe or not I'm actually more on Valerians side for once....

The Tau have a far superior strategy and capabilities on planet. The only real advantage IoM had was Titans but Tau (actually capable of innovation) created a new titan-killer airship that sent the Titan Legion literally running away because it wasn't worth the cost of keeping them there. Which honestly sums up the Tau really well. The cost of fighting them from the Imperium's stand point almost always outweighs the benefit.

That's from the Taros "of course a railgun can one-shot a titan, what are void-shields again?" Campaign, and its big thing is it has a railgun on it. It's like one broadside for the price of seven, and completely helpless against any kind of anti-air or air superiority fighter. A thunderbolt would tear it apart, as would a hydra battery.

It's a dedicated titan-killer not a dog fighter. That is like criticizing a spoon for not cutting like a knife. They are too completely different things.And it doesn't one-shot the titan. It blasts through the void shields with seeker-missiles and then blasts through the armor with the titan-level railgun. All of the fluff surrounding them continuously hammers home the idea that they are utterly out of their league against the IoM on a strategic level but tactically fighting them results in costs that simply far outweigh's any benefits. This isn't an esoteric concept. Of course the Tau would have to have significant ground superiority in order to justify that fluff.

The Taus greatest weapon is not technology, their behind in a lot of ways, their genetic engineering is far behind the both the Imperium and the forces of Chaos, they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand, Tau power comes from lies, lies that they actually give a damn about others and won't just use them to serve the goals of the Etherials who are the only ones who benefit from the pyramid scheme, just look at how willing they always are to shoot the kroot in the dawn of war games, or to sterilize human populations while bringing in tau settlers, their like the Nazis but with a better PR department.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
The Taus greatest weapon is not technology, their behind in a lot of ways, their genetic engineering is far behind the both the Imperium and the forces of Chaos, they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand, Tau power comes from lies, lies that they actually give a damn about others and won't just use them to serve the goals of the Etherials who are the only ones who benefit from the pyramid scheme, just look at how willing they always are to shoot the kroot in the dawn of war games, or to sterilize human populations while bringing in tau settlers, their like the Nazis but with a better PR department.

No. This statement is wrong. The Tau are behind in some ways but they are also ahead in some areas which is incredible given their species short span of existence. The Tau have warp-capable ships. That is why they are called the Tau Empire because they have expanded to many different systems. DoW is not all canon. Tau do not throw people into concentration camps or steralize populations in all but one case which is debatable at best. In fact they have armed and fought alongside humans. Last I checked the Nazi's did not give weapons to the Jews and fight the Allies alongside them.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Wait, it's an S10 weapon with the destroyer rule? That doesn't make sense; if it has a strength other than "destroyer" it's not a destroyer weapon... ah, and it's recosted in IA Apocalypse, making it one marginally improved broadside for the price of nine and a half. Which would, ironically, be enough to potentially bring down a warhound in one salvo. It's still a little unlikely, but it's quite a bit more so than the entirely impossible one heavy railgun bringing down a titan in one shot.

GAME MECHANICS =/= FLUFF.

The Tigershark is armed with two titan-scale weapons. Essentially it's a flying Warhound.

A warhound puts out four equivalent shots at marginally shorter range, except they're all large blasts instead of a single shot that effects a single point.

What does that have to do with a dogfight with a Thunderbolt (you know, the thing the defensive turrets on a Marauder or Tigershark are designed for)? The way you deal with Hydras is to stay above their maximum altitude and/or kill them with stand-off weapons, not strafe them with machine guns.

It's a ground supporting gunship that's supposed to stay out of the range of emplacements designed to take out anything from close support gunships to high-altitude bombers? How is that supposed to work again?

Evidence for this?

And even if the Marauder has a marginally better chance, it's still pretty much zero. Pointing out that heavy bombers die if they're forced into a dogfight with air superiority fighters isn't really saying much, and it isn't a point against the Tigershark.

Oh, the odds are definitely against it (I'm a bit tired to mathhammer out the specifics right now), but it's 50% tougher, and has weapons with better range and firepower against attacking aircraft. And the thunderbolt is just a better air-superiority fighter overall.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
The Taus greatest weapon is not technology, their behind in a lot of ways, their genetic engineering is far behind the both the Imperium and the forces of Chaos, they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand, Tau power comes from lies, lies that they actually give a damn about others and won't just use them to serve the goals of the Etherials who are the only ones who benefit from the pyramid scheme, just look at how willing they always are to shoot the kroot in the dawn of war games, or to sterilize human populations while bringing in tau settlers, their like the Nazis but with a better PR department.

Wrong on almost every count.
If its fluff from all sources then thats what we can play, in Deathwatch RPG, its mentioned that the Tau have discovered a cure for the Genestealer Phlage taint, and are able to cure , without killing its victims, something the IoM has never acheived in any fluff (as far as I know)

The have Warp tech, its not as fast as imperial tech, and uses a different means, thats how they have expanded, its just they have benifited from a tight cluster of systems in the first 2 expansions.

Ethereals serve the Tau race , in the capacity they are best, as each of the castes do, there is no pyramid scheme, its just how Tau society works, and they do not hide the roles each caste plays.

In every book (not computer game ) they state over and over that the kroot are a valued part of the empire and do not waste them pointlessly, no more than they do any element of their military, but the kroot way of warfare leads to them taking more casulties, they do engage in CC, and that tends to be pretty lethal.

And yes in the face of a hostile population upon a captured planet, its how they deal with the problem, is it across the board and for every inhabitant of the planet, who knows, but the fluff also states that the Tau will put their own lives in danger to save allies and member planets.

They are not Nazis ..they are Aliens.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
...they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand...

Huh, what? They do have Warp technology, except it's really, REALLY primitive.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:


In every book (not computer game ) they state over and over that the kroot are a valued part of the empire and do not waste them pointlessly, no more than they do any element of their military, but the kroot way of warfare leads to them taking more casulties, they do engage in CC, and that tends to be pretty lethal.

Yeah, but don't they look down on the Kroot as savages?

not really, they just find the kroots tendency for eating dead enemies distasteful, and they smell bad.

Some Tau at first glace considered the kroot savage, but they sent teams and envoys to study the kroot on their home planet (this was covered in the first Tau codex), and that likely cleared up alot of initial misgivings, besides if the Ethereals say they are ok..then they are ok.


The firewarriors that serve alongside the kroot respect them, and they fufill a role in the Tau OB.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
A warhound puts out four equivalent shots at marginally shorter range, except they're all large blasts instead of a single shot that effects a single point.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

And even by game mechanics the Tigershark's gun is AP 1, so not equivalent.

It's a ground supporting gunship that's supposed to stay out of the range of emplacements designed to take out anything from close support gunships to high-altitude bombers? How is that supposed to work again?

Seeker missiles = over-the-horizon strike to kill the Hydra (with a cloaked Remora marking the target), at which point the Tigershark moves in for direct railgun shots. And note that the heavy railcannons outrange a Hydra.

Also, since you love game mechanics, in Aeronautica Imperialis (the most detailed air combat we've seen) a Hydra is limited to medium range and low altitude. It is good defense against low-altitude strafing attacks, but does nothing against high-altitude bombers.

Oh, the odds are definitely against it (I'm a bit tired to mathhammer out the specifics right now), but it's 50% tougher, and has weapons with better range and firepower against attacking aircraft. And the thunderbolt is just a better air-superiority fighter overall.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

In fact, I could easily come to the opposite conclusion by looking at the Aeronautica Imperialis rules (IMO a better source for air combat) where a Barracuda, depending on the range, has a better chance of taking out a Marauder than a Thunderbolt against a Tigershark.

In fact they have armed and fought alongside humans. Last I checked the Nazi's did not give weapons to the Jews and fight the Allies alongside them.

Nazi's gave weopons to Slavs who they deemed to be subhuman, over 400,000 poles served in the German Army despite the fact that the Nazi regime was taking active steps to reduce the the diet of the Polish people to lesson their life expectency and increase infant mortality.

And yes in the face of a hostile population upon a captured planet, its how they deal with the problem

The Nazis felt they faced hostile poplulations as well.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
...they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand...

Huh, what? They do have Warp technology, except it's really, REALLY primitive.

The Imperium may have better warp travel, but that is because they have psykers to guide their ships. The new classes of Tau ships are almost as Warp-capable as Imperium ships, but they lack navigators. The superior Tau technology allows them to keep up.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
not really, they just find the kroots tendency for eating dead enemies distasteful, and they smell bad.

LMAO
Seriously?

Anyway, back on topic of the Tau Empire and it's clients, just to introduce a new dimension into the discussion, it seems to me if the Imperium is an analogy to the historical Holy Roman Empire, then the Tau are an analogy to the colonial empires of the 19th century.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

In fact they have armed and fought alongside humans. Last I checked the Nazi's did not give weapons to the Jews and fight the Allies alongside them.

Nazi's gave weopons to Slavs who they deemed to be subhuman, over 400,000 poles served in the German Army despite the fact that the Nazi regime was taking active steps to reduce the the diet of the Polish people to lesson their life expectency and increase infant mortality.

And yes in the face of a hostile population upon a captured planet, its how they deal with the problem

The Nazis felt they faced hostile poplulations as well.

LEAVE THE NAZIS OUT THIS.

You guys are begging for a MOD Bankai.

 reddwarf54 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
...they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand...

Huh, what? They do have Warp technology, except it's really, REALLY primitive.

The Imperium may have better warp travel, but that is because they have psykers to guide their ships. The new classes of Tau ships are almost as Warp-capable as Imperium ships, but they lack navigators. The superior Tau technology allows them to keep up.

Ah, but that's the key word isn't it? Almost.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

In fact they have armed and fought alongside humans. Last I checked the Nazi's did not give weapons to the Jews and fight the Allies alongside them.

Nazi's gave weopons to Slavs who they deemed to be subhuman, over 400,000 poles served in the German Army despite the fact that the Nazi regime was taking active steps to reduce the the diet of the Polish people to lesson their life expectency and increase infant mortality.

And yes in the face of a hostile population upon a captured planet, its how they deal with the problem

The Nazis felt they faced hostile poplulations as well.

Nazis were humans doing that to other humans that they decided were not human anymore, they did not rebel or resist, they rounded them up and killed them at the commands of a madman, humans killing humans.

now switch to a fantasy universe.

Its aliens sterilizing and reducing a human population to manageable (in their minds) size, and maybe its until the resistance stops, or some other goal is acheived, and when they sterilize its not line them up and shoot them.

so think what you will, its a sci-fi universe and not re-enactment of ww2, your comparisons only hold water in the shallowest of pools, and the sterilizing is only cited in a computer game.

Anyway, back on topic of the Tau Empire and it's clients, just to introduce a new dimension into the discussion, it seems to me if the Imperium is an analogy to the historical Holy Roman Empire, then the Tau are an analogy to the colonial empires of the 19th century.

I think its the Holy Roman Empire vs the Turkish Ottoman Empire, the Tyranids are meant to be the Turinid mongols.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

In fact they have armed and fought alongside humans. Last I checked the Nazi's did not give weapons to the Jews and fight the Allies alongside them.

Nazi's gave weopons to Slavs who they deemed to be subhuman, over 400,000 poles served in the German Army despite the fact that the Nazi regime was taking active steps to reduce the the diet of the Polish people to lesson their life expectency and increase infant mortality.

And yes in the face of a hostile population upon a captured planet, its how they deal with the problem

The Nazis felt they faced hostile poplulations as well.

Nazis were humans doing that to other humans that they decided were not human anymore, they did not rebel or resist, they rounded them up and killed them at the commands of a madman, humans killing humans.

Enough with the Nazis PLEASE!

Its aliens sterilizing and reducing a human population to manageable (in their minds) size, and maybe its until the resistance stops, or some other goal is acheived, and when they sterilize its not line them up and shoot them.

so think what you will, its a sci-fi universe and not re-enactment of ww2, your comparisons only hold water in the shallowest of pools, and the sterilizing is only cited in a computer game.

And a non-canon ending at that.

but Tau (actually capable of innovation)

Who needs innovation when you have more soldiers than they have bullets.

Yes Kroot smell really bad...they do not defecate or urinate, and have hyper efficent digestion tracts, and exude what little waste as a oily sweat, and they seem to be able to alter that sweats smell, since in a fluff text in the old codex, a kroot followed around a Tau observer, exuding various smells to bother the Tau, much to the amusement of other kroot.
It was actually a pretty good fluff blurb.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yes Kroot smell really bad...they do not defecate or urinate, and have hyper efficent digestion tracts, and exude what little waste as a oily sweat, and they seem to be able to alter that sweats smell, since in a fluff text in the old codex, a kroot followed around a Tau observer, exuding various smells to bother the Tau, much to the amusement of other kroot.
It was actually a pretty good fluff blurb.

Weird...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 reddwarf54 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
...they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand...

Huh, what? They do have Warp technology, except it's really, REALLY primitive.

The Imperium may have better warp travel, but that is because they have psykers to guide their ships. The new classes of Tau ships are almost as Warp-capable as Imperium ships, but they lack navigators. The superior Tau technology allows them to keep up.

Ah, but that's the key word isn't it? Almost.

The point I was trying to make is that they are warp capable without navigators or psykers to guide them. Therefore their superior technology is what allows them to compete.

Thats actually the kind of fluff I enjoy, just little details about races and such, no galaxy shaking silliness.

And as to Tau FTL/warp tech its not Primitive per se, it just missing the keystone of IoM warp tech, namely navigators, and since the Tau are no psychic, they will have to find a way to hurdle this biological requirement, so far they have not been able to, the deep warp dives that the IoM enjoy are due to its possesion of navigators.

It a tech gap that the Tau are now having to come to grips with, how they will solve it..who knows, but as to warp drives and such there really is no fluff saying their engines are any more primitive than human ones, they just cannot take advantage of the full scop of warp travel at this point.

 reddwarf54 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 reddwarf54 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
...they have no warp based technology which makes the Tau Empire unable to expand...

Huh, what? They do have Warp technology, except it's really, REALLY primitive.

The Imperium may have better warp travel, but that is because they have psykers to guide their ships. The new classes of Tau ships are almost as Warp-capable as Imperium ships, but they lack navigators. The superior Tau technology allows them to keep up.

Ah, but that's the key word isn't it? Almost.

The point I was trying to make is that they are warp capable without navigators or psykers to guide them. Therefore their superior technology is what allows them to compete.

Unfortunately, that's as far as they go. The Ethereals have stopped all research on the Warp after the Medusa V campaign.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Thats actually the kind of fluff I enjoy, just little details about races and such, no galaxy shaking silliness.

Hmmm...that makes sense. TBH, I wish BL would publish some novels that aren't about crusade this, campaign that, and just something about normal galactic life; a colony fleet traveling across the stars, Rogue Traders exploring the unknown, and so on.

Actually if memory serves it was earth caste techs that found a deadend to current research, likely the lack of a psychic link in the warp tech tree, and one they cannot currently solve with their tech..cool, I love limitations to races and factions, it makes for interesting reading.

And they are aware of this shortcoming, so adapting doctrine to compansate would be the Tau empires likely route, in the short term, build up what they have, and look for alternatives.

Its the biggest contrast from the IoM the Tau are exploring and developing, the IoM is established and forgotten some its greatest acheivments, its a big circle of life.

"que lion king music"

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Actually if memory serves it was earth caste techs that found a deadend to current research, likely the lack of a psychic link in the warp tech tree, and one they cannot currently solve with their tech..cool, I love limitations to races and factions, it makes for interesting reading.

And they are aware of this shortcoming, so adapting doctrine to compansate would be the Tau empires likely route, in the short term, build up what they have, and look for alternatives.

The problem is that with their current understanding of Warp technology, they reach a point where expanding their empire would become a pointless exercise. Slow FTL and no FTL communications = troops so far away will be wiped out by Imperial/Chaos/Tyranid/Ork/Necron forces by the time reinforcements arrive. Their enemies might even goad the Tau into continuing such a futile campaign to bleed their military away, allowing for a killing blow to be struck at the depleted Tau core worlds.

As I said a hurdle, all races face them, and we will see in the new codex if the address that, likely they will since its GWs practice to make sure all races can fight everyone for any reason, anywhere.

I am hoping for a nice fluff infusion when the new codex finally arrives.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
As I said a hurdle, all races face them, and we will see in the new codex if the address that, likely they will since its GWs practice to make sure all races can fight everyone for any reason, anywhere.

I am hoping for a nice fluff infusion when the new codex finally arrives.

Good luck to that. I doubt BFG will be getting any update soon

Nope, BFG, necromunda, gorkamorka, inquistor all have been subject to the overall change in GW practices, and its a shame, some of the best balanced games they produced, and fun as well.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Nope, BFG, necromunda, gorkamorka, inquistor all have been subject to the overall change in GW practices, and its a shame, some of the best balanced games they produced, and fun as well.

Any suggestions which TT army I should get into? Is there an army with a play style similar to the Imperial Navy? Balanced, sturdy, and so on...

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yes Kroot smell really bad...they do not defecate or urinate, and have hyper efficent digestion tracts, and exude what little waste as a oily sweat, and they seem to be able to alter that sweats smell, since in a fluff text in the old codex, a kroot followed around a Tau observer, exuding various smells to bother the Tau, much to the amusement of other kroot.
It was actually a pretty good fluff blurb.

I like the expression "fluff blurp"in this context

But an Imperial Guard regiment is not exactly a rose garden either

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Nope, BFG, necromunda, gorkamorka, inquistor all have been subject to the overall change in GW practices, and its a shame, some of the best balanced games they produced, and fun as well.

Any suggestions which TT army I should get into? Is there an army with a play style similar to the Imperial Navy? Balanced, sturdy, and so on...

Based on your interests in the Imperial navy, I would go with that, make a IG army based on the concept of a detached ships ground party, valkires, vultures, veteran troopers, stormtroopers, all kinds of cool conversions could be made to fit with the concept, Basilisks could be modeled as a mobile ground direction center for ship based weaponry, stormtroopers could be modeled as ships elite boarding teams.
Sentinals could be modeled as jurry rigged powerloaders pressed into use.

IG would be a fun project, paint the soldiers in crisper uniforms, and tone down the mud and dirt and it would sing.

Not to mention you could add air support, thunderbolts etc and it would be incredibly fluffy.

I see. All right then, I'll see if I can find a codex.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Actually if memory serves it was earth caste techs that found a deadend to current research, likely the lack of a psychic link in the warp tech tree, and one they cannot currently solve with their tech..cool, I love limitations to races and factions, it makes for interesting reading.

And they are aware of this shortcoming, so adapting doctrine to compansate would be the Tau empires likely route, in the short term, build up what they have, and look for alternatives.

The problem is that with their current understanding of Warp technology, they reach a point where expanding their empire would become a pointless exercise. Slow FTL and no FTL communications = troops so far away will be wiped out by Imperial/Chaos/Tyranid/Ork/Necron forces by the time reinforcements arrive. Their enemies might even goad the Tau into continuing such a futile campaign to bleed their military away, allowing for a killing blow to be struck at the depleted Tau core worlds.

Well no. The tau may find this as their saving grace. A slow methodical approach.
Remember the Imperium of Man is no a densely populated area, and not every system is controlled by them. Whereas the Imperium might have 2 controlled systems within easy reach. The Tau might have 8 or 9 controlled system, each colonised and fully developed, with any internal threats removed, so no surprise invasions from within the Empire.

And you can bet the Tau would be able to respond reliably as well. No dependent on the reliability of the warp. Message ships out, muster troops, fleet in = X weeks.

Imperium astropathic message= variable time mere seconds or not at all
Muster troops= variable for the muster due to warp, days weeks or years
Transport in= variable days weeks or years

Taros for example took over a year to muster and deploy troops for a campaign.