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 Eetion wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Actually if memory serves it was earth caste techs that found a deadend to current research, likely the lack of a psychic link in the warp tech tree, and one they cannot currently solve with their tech..cool, I love limitations to races and factions, it makes for interesting reading.

And they are aware of this shortcoming, so adapting doctrine to compansate would be the Tau empires likely route, in the short term, build up what they have, and look for alternatives.

The problem is that with their current understanding of Warp technology, they reach a point where expanding their empire would become a pointless exercise. Slow FTL and no FTL communications = troops so far away will be wiped out by Imperial/Chaos/Tyranid/Ork/Necron forces by the time reinforcements arrive. Their enemies might even goad the Tau into continuing such a futile campaign to bleed their military away, allowing for a killing blow to be struck at the depleted Tau core worlds.

Well no. The tau may find this as their saving grace. A slow methodical approach.
Remember the Imperium of Man is no a densely populated area, and not every system is controlled by them. Whereas the Imperium might have 2 controlled systems within easy reach. The Tau might have 8 or 9 controlled system, each colonised and fully developed, with any internal threats removed, so no surprise invasions from within the Empire.

And you can bet the Tau would be able to respond reliably as well. No dependent on the reliability of the warp. Message ships out, muster troops, fleet in = X weeks.

Imperium astropathic message= variable time mere seconds or not at all
Muster troops= variable for the muster due to warp, days weeks or years
Transport in= variable days weeks or years

Taros for example took over a year to muster and deploy troops for a campaign.

If a frontal attack won't work, let us turn to the Inquisition, and have them lure a Tyranid Hive Fleet or an Ork Waaagh! into the Tau salient. Humans can manipulate other races like Eldar too

On another note, should the Tau get too strong, the Necrons are bound to take notice. They know better than anyone how dangerous a young and determined species is - because they were like that too against the Old Ones. And even if the Tau can take on the Imperium/Tyranids/Orks in a large-scale operation by that point; I doubt the same would go for the Necrons. The difference in power is too great; it's like comparing the Great Crusade-era Imperium to the Eldar Empire at it's height. The latter was actually far stronger.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Actually if memory serves it was earth caste techs that found a deadend to current research, likely the lack of a psychic link in the warp tech tree, and one they cannot currently solve with their tech..cool, I love limitations to races and factions, it makes for interesting reading.

And they are aware of this shortcoming, so adapting doctrine to compansate would be the Tau empires likely route, in the short term, build up what they have, and look for alternatives.

The problem is that with their current understanding of Warp technology, they reach a point where expanding their empire would become a pointless exercise. Slow FTL and no FTL communications = troops so far away will be wiped out by Imperial/Chaos/Tyranid/Ork/Necron forces by the time reinforcements arrive. Their enemies might even goad the Tau into continuing such a futile campaign to bleed their military away, allowing for a killing blow to be struck at the depleted Tau core worlds.

Well no. The tau may find this as their saving grace. A slow methodical approach.
Remember the Imperium of Man is no a densely populated area, and not every system is controlled by them. Whereas the Imperium might have 2 controlled systems within easy reach. The Tau might have 8 or 9 controlled system, each colonised and fully developed, with any internal threats removed, so no surprise invasions from within the Empire.

And you can bet the Tau would be able to respond reliably as well. No dependent on the reliability of the warp. Message ships out, muster troops, fleet in = X weeks.

Imperium astropathic message= variable time mere seconds or not at all
Muster troops= variable for the muster due to warp, days weeks or years
Transport in= variable days weeks or years

Taros for example took over a year to muster and deploy troops for a campaign.

If a frontal attack won't work, let us turn to the Inquisition, and have them lure a Tyranid Hive Fleet or an Ork Waaagh! into the Tau salient. Humans can manipulate other races like Eldar too

On another note, should the Tau get too strong, the Necrons are bound to take notice. They know better than anyone how dangerous a young and determined species is - because they were like that too against the Old Ones. And even if the Tau can take on the Imperium/Tyranids/Orks in a large-scale operation by that point; I doubt the same would go for the Necrons. The difference in power is too great; it's like comparing the Great Crusade-era Imperium to the Eldar Empire at it's height. The latter was actually far stronger.

What the necrons will do or won't do is not so much a issue, they are the longest lived race in the galaxy, so they are really in no rush to do anything, at anytime, and the reactions of the necrons are dependant on which necron lord it is, some may destroy, some my ignore, some may collect, and some may find the Tau a "Honorable" foe..who knows.

The Necrons are a far greater threat to humanity, since its they who hold the keys to the warp so to speak, and the necrons really dislike warp stuff, tau dont even factor on that radar.

And if you want to talk manipulation, what if the Tau were able in some way to communicate with the Tyranids, after all the Tyranids have their own version of the greater good, same as the vespid...and that went well, maybe a communion torpedo, they could lodge in a tyranid norn queen ship.

So its best just to discuss whats likely to happen, not delve into such and such will kill everyone ..blah blah.

That and luring hive fleets... Isn't exactly a common occurence.

In fact the whole luring nids plan was born out of desperation and the inquisitor in question was severely reprimanded.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Actually if memory serves it was earth caste techs that found a deadend to current research, likely the lack of a psychic link in the warp tech tree, and one they cannot currently solve with their tech..cool, I love limitations to races and factions, it makes for interesting reading.

And they are aware of this shortcoming, so adapting doctrine to compansate would be the Tau empires likely route, in the short term, build up what they have, and look for alternatives.

The problem is that with their current understanding of Warp technology, they reach a point where expanding their empire would become a pointless exercise. Slow FTL and no FTL communications = troops so far away will be wiped out by Imperial/Chaos/Tyranid/Ork/Necron forces by the time reinforcements arrive. Their enemies might even goad the Tau into continuing such a futile campaign to bleed their military away, allowing for a killing blow to be struck at the depleted Tau core worlds.

Well no. The tau may find this as their saving grace. A slow methodical approach.
Remember the Imperium of Man is no a densely populated area, and not every system is controlled by them. Whereas the Imperium might have 2 controlled systems within easy reach. The Tau might have 8 or 9 controlled system, each colonised and fully developed, with any internal threats removed, so no surprise invasions from within the Empire.

And you can bet the Tau would be able to respond reliably as well. No dependent on the reliability of the warp. Message ships out, muster troops, fleet in = X weeks.

Imperium astropathic message= variable time mere seconds or not at all
Muster troops= variable for the muster due to warp, days weeks or years
Transport in= variable days weeks or years

Taros for example took over a year to muster and deploy troops for a campaign.

If a frontal attack won't work, let us turn to the Inquisition, and have them lure a Tyranid Hive Fleet or an Ork Waaagh! into the Tau salient. Humans can manipulate other races like Eldar too

On another note, should the Tau get too strong, the Necrons are bound to take notice. They know better than anyone how dangerous a young and determined species is - because they were like that too against the Old Ones. And even if the Tau can take on the Imperium/Tyranids/Orks in a large-scale operation by that point; I doubt the same would go for the Necrons. The difference in power is too great; it's like comparing the Great Crusade-era Imperium to the Eldar Empire at it's height. The latter was actually far stronger.

What the necrons will do or won't do is not so much a issue, they are the longest lived race in the galaxy, so they are really in no rush to do anything, at anytime, and the reactions of the necrons are dependant on which necron lord it is, some may destroy, some my ignore, some may collect, and some may find the Tau a "Honorable" foe..who knows.

The Necrons are a far greater threat to humanity, since its they who hold the keys to the warp so to speak, and the necrons really dislike warp stuff, tau dont even factor on that radar.

And if you want to talk manipulation, what if the Tau were able in some way to communicate with the Tyranids, after all the Tyranids have their own version of the greater good, same as the vespid...and that went well, maybe a communion torpedo, they could lodge in a tyranid norn queen ship.

So its best just to discuss whats likely to happen, not delve into such and such will kill everyone ..blah blah.

Fair enough, but Tau subverting Tyranids would be suicide if it succeeded. I imagine Eldar emissaries immediately opening negotiations with the Imperium to end this threat. The Eldar have not forgotten nor forgiven the devastation on Iyanden. Far better to humble themselves and join with the mon'keigh to stop the Tau and their pet Tyranids before they wreak havok on the galaxy

I think in that incredibly unlikely event, the eldar would buddy up with the tau, and point to what planets the eldar want to preserve, its been stated in several places that the Eldar have compasion, interest or what ever the eldar equivalent for non-disdain for the Tau.

Likely the Tau would just ask the tyranids to go somewhere else

anyway back to your regular programming.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
I think in that incredibly unlikely event, the eldar would buddy up with the tau, and point to what planets the eldar want to preserve, its been stated in several places that the Eldar have compasion, interest or what ever the eldar equivalent for non-disdain for the Tau.

That would change...for Iyanden at least. They hate the Tyranids with a passion that's almost holy. And can you blame them?

Likely the Tau would just ask the tyranids to go somewhere else

Only for more to come back. There's more than one Hive Fleet out there, you know.

anyway back to your regular programming.

Okay...which is what?

Asking nids to go away, communication, redirecting into the Tau... Again.
This is all too far fetched and irrelevant to the discussion.
Let's look at likely options.

Tau tech I believe is better across the army but high end equipment is inferior. But equally is rare in the imperium.

The russ is inferior to the hammerhead in virtually every way, but equally more numerous.

As for Seeker missiles barely scratching the paint of a Russ. Just no. Remember seekers are not man portable weapons, its launched from vehicles and aircraft. The Tau favor a fluid mobile form of war. The seeker can be launched at any angle, its not guaranteed to be in front of the russ. It may be from Pirahnas from the rear or side as the circumnavigate the armoured column, or down on to the top of the russ from an aircraft. Yes a. Russ has armour 14 at the front, but then its only 10 at the rear.

The Imperial Navy is superior... At the moment. But the Tau have rapidly closed the gap in a relatively short space of time, and the Tau bombers are far more dangerous than anything the navy can deploy.

Also while adressing the Navy let's also talk about Air Support. Yes the Navy is larger, But the Tau air especially skilled. Tiger Sharks with titan Killing railguns, Mantas, and most importantly the Remora Drone Fighter. 1 aircraft capable of controlling its own fighter support, with you guessed it Seeker missiles. Massed produced, and capable of high speed maneuvers. This aircraft may just have turned any form of Imperial Air Superiority in a campaign into an impossibility. The ability to deploy many Aircraft so that they can compete with not only the barracudas but also x number of Remoras may be beyond them.

I've seen a few comments on the Tau FTL/Warp drive, and I feel that the Tau version is probably more advanced than the Imperial version. I'm not going to say better, but simply more advanced.

Humanity hit a problem and found a way to advance via the navigator gene, that allowed them quicker speeds, the physical mechanical aspect was never developed further, after all why did they need to. The Tau however never obtained the gene, and so have continued to develop the mechanics. AFAIK, what slows Tau ship down is the need/ability to calculate where they are going, Tau have to look before they leap, IG look while they leap and so can jump further/better/(insert word of choice).

I've also noticed a preponderance of comments (at least in other threads) that Tau are screwed if they do obtain the navigator gene due to the probable demonic possession. I've only heard of this (background wise) for humans. Has there been anything written about an alien being possessed/made a gateway of (as opposed to killed, I'm thinking ghost helm/RoW here) by a warp entity?

Cheers

Andrew

 Eetion wrote:


The Imperial Navy is superior... At the moment. But the Tau have rapidly closed the gap in a relatively short space of time, and the Tau bombers are far more dangerous than anything the navy can deploy.

Also while adressing the Navy let's also talk about Air Support. Yes the Navy is larger, But the Tau air especially skilled. Tiger Sharks with titan Killing railguns, Mantas, and most importantly the Remora Drone Fighter. 1 aircraft capable of controlling its own fighter support, with you guessed it Seeker missiles. Massed produced, and capable of high speed maneuvers. This aircraft may just have turned any form of Imperial Air Superiority in a campaign into an impossibility. The ability to deploy many Aircraft so that they can compete with not only the barracudas but also x number of Remoras may be beyond them.

Only because the larger naval formations are elsewhere. The Tau are a frontier threat; the Lord Admirals aren't going to send any unnecessary forces. As for superior Attack Craft...in space, the Barracuda is the primary Tau interceptor and is easily matched by Imperial Furies, but the Imperium can field more Furies than the Tau can field Barracudas. Mantas stand a 50-50 chance of punching through Imperial fighter screens...but Imperial warships aren't defenseless - they do have turrets of their own. Plus, the Imperial Navy still prefers to field more ships than the enemy whenever possible. Quantity is a quality of it's own, you know. In any case, even if the Imperium can't win on the ground, without naval superiority, the Imperium could just bomb the whole place from orbit. Plus Space Marines

 AndrewC wrote:
I've seen a few comments on the Tau FTL/Warp drive, and I feel that the Tau version is probably more advanced than the Imperial version. I'm not going to say better, but simply more advanced.

Humanity hit a problem and found a way to advance via the navigator gene, that allowed them quicker speeds, the physical mechanical aspect was never developed further, after all why did they need to. The Tau however never obtained the gene, and so have continued to develop the mechanics. AFAIK, what slows Tau ship down is the need/ability to calculate where they are going, Tau have to look before they leap, IG look while they leap and so can jump further/better/(insert word of choice).

The Old Ones would probably have considered the Human method as more commendable, given that in the 40k universe, psychic species are generally considered as superior to non-psychic species (IRL, I too would consider psionics as a mark of superiority, whether those born with psionic talents, those who inherited them from their parents, and those who had them induced via artificial means).

I've also noticed a preponderance of comments (at least in other threads) that Tau are screwed if they do obtain the navigator gene due to the probable demonic possession. I've only heard of this (background wise) for humans. Has there been anything written about an alien being possessed/made a gateway of (as opposed to killed, I'm thinking ghost helm/RoW here) by a warp entity?

Never heard of it myself, but I do know that Tau are not immune to psychic attack/sorcery.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Only because the larger naval formations are elsewhere. The Tau are a frontier threat; the Lord Admirals aren't going to send any unnecessary forces. As for superior Attack Craft...in space, the Barracuda is the primary Tau interceptor and is easily matched by Imperial Furies, but the Imperium can field more Furies than the Tau can field Barracudas. Mantas stand a 50-50 chance of punching through Imperial fighter screens...but Imperial warships aren't defenseless - they do have turrets of their own.

However said turrets are useless against combined waves. A smart Tau commander will launch a combined wave of fighters, missles and mantas. Any opposing forces has to make up its mind as to what it is going to strip. If they go for the missiles then the bombers get through with the fighers in support. If they go for the fighters, then the missiles and bombers hit at the same time, and the turrets can only target one. If they go for the Mantas, they have a fifty/fifty chance of surviving and the turrets still can only target one.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:


However said turrets are useless against combined waves. A smart Tau commander will launch a combined wave of fighters, missles and mantas. Any opposing forces has to make up its mind as to what it is going to strip. If they go for the missiles then the bombers get through with the fighers in support. If they go for the fighters, then the missiles and bombers hit at the same time, and the turrets can only target one. If they go for the Mantas, they have a fifty/fifty chance of surviving and the turrets still can only target one.

True...but then simply have the Imperial fighters go for the drone missiles, and have the fleet concentrate their Weapon Batteries on the incoming wave. A one-in-six chance of hitting sounds small, but when you combine multiple Weapon Batteries, then you actually get a surprisingly large chance of hitting. And a single hit from a Weapon Battery would wipe out an entire wave.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Old Ones would probably have considered the Human method as more commendable, given that in the 40k universe, psychic species are generally considered as superior to non-psychic species.

Only by the psychic species

Never heard of it myself, but I do know that Tau are not immune to psychic attack/sorcery.

Agreed, but I have seen it proposed elsewhere that once/if the Tau obtain the gene, their empire would be torn asunder by uncontrolled warprifts/demonic incursions. I've never seen any evidence supporting that claim, ie supporting evidence via background fiction/rules. It could be that the warp is so specialised that they are capable only of entering 'realspace' via a human host. Wouldn't that be an interesting plot twist?

Cheers

Andrew

PS, I've just remembered Tau do have exterminatus weapons, just like all the other space faring factions. (This is for an earlier post in the thread)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
True...but then simply have the Imperial fighters go for the drone missiles, and have the fleet concentrate their Weapon Batteries on the incoming wave. A one-in-six chance of hitting sounds small, but when you combine multiple Weapon Batteries, then you actually get a surprisingly large chance of hitting. And a single hit from a Weapon Battery would wipe out an entire wave.

But if you're firing your batteries against the ordinance, then you're not firing them at the Tau capital ships are you? And ordinance can be reloaded, whereas hull point damage can't. I've just made the IN waste it's main advantage against reusable assets.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Old Ones would probably have considered the Human method as more commendable, given that in the 40k universe, psychic species are generally considered as superior to non-psychic species.

Only by the psychic species

Lol

But seriously, at the risk of sounding egotistical, I'll be poetic on this subject:

Any fool can hold a gun. Any primitive creature with enough complexity can order a ship to bomb a world from orbit. But only a psionic can bend reality with their mind, overcoming technology and the laws of physics alike. For all our fear of the Warp and of Chaos, we Humans know, as the Eldar know, that psionics is a power like no other.

Never heard of it myself, but I do know that Tau are not immune to psychic attack/sorcery.

Agreed, but I have seen it proposed elsewhere that once/if the Tau obtain the gene, their empire would be torn asunder by uncontrolled warprifts/demonic incursions. I've never seen any evidence supporting that claim, ie supporting evidence via background fiction/rules. It could be that the warp is so specialised that they are capable only of entering 'realspace' via a human host. Wouldn't that be an interesting plot twist?

That seems unlikely, given the Warp is generated by all living things, and not just Humans (even if Humans 'feed' Chaos more than any other sapient life form).

EDIT: There's also a one-in-six chance of ordnance running out/an accident occurring in the ordnance bays. As a last resort, ram-and-board. The Imperial armored prows and Tau weakness regarding boarding actions can tip the balance.

The Imperial Navy, yes the Barracuda is a match for a fury. But the Manta eclipses the Navys own Bombers. As for the navy having more fighters, Just No, with an entire segmentums fleet yes absolutely. Able to deploy in a single engagement. No. Virtually all of the Taus capital ships can deploy some form of fighter screen. (The custodian I don't think it can)
Fighter and bomber wings are the Taus principle method of void war.

 Eetion wrote:

Fighter and bomber wings are the Taus principle method of void war.

Ordnance superiority =/= instant win.

Ordnance can run out/malfunction. Weapon Batteries and Lances don't.

Imperial warships aren't helpless. It's going to be a tough battle no doubt, but it's not a guaranteed victory for either side, and in a battle of attrition, the Imperial Navy has the advantage. And Heaven help the Tau if the Astartes get involved. Remember the Zeist Campaign? The Tau retreated rather than face a significant force of Space Marines. If the Guard and Navy start to falter, the Ultramarines and their allies will not stand idly by.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But seriously, at the risk of sounding egotistical, I'll be poetic on this subject:

Any fool can hold a gun. Any primitive creature with enough complexity can order a ship to bomb a world from orbit. But only a psionic can bend reality with their mind, overcoming technology and the laws of physics alike. For all our fear of the Warp and of Chaos, we Humans know, as the Eldar know, that psionics is a power like no other.

I like that quote, bet it was written by a psychic

That seems unlikely, given the Warp is generated by all living things, and not just Humans (even if Humans 'feed' Chaos more than any other sapient life form).

The thought came to me as I'm working my way through the Terry Pratchett Science novels, again, while waiting for the fourth to be published and currently on Darwins Watch. The warp could have evolved so that humans are the only food that they can 'digest'. For example, humans evolved eating raw meat, now we require cooked meat in order to extract nutrients from it. Raw meat is no longer digested properly.

It would be an intersting plot twist to say that warp entities, given the glut of human 'food', have lost the ability to digest other races. But thats getting this OT.

"Why do non-Tau accept the greater good?" Because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

Cheers

Andrew

The Zeist campaign little description in the 5th ed codex, is a example of the uneven treatment each race gets , when featured in another codex, it always hige route this and 1 company takes a system that, at least in recent editions, the Tau are guilty of it too, in a scenario supplement where they wipe out a tyranid invasion force with minimal casulties, thats GW for you.
I like hard fought and well written battles, not off hand such and such wiped out these dudes crap.

 AndrewC wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But seriously, at the risk of sounding egotistical, I'll be poetic on this subject:

Any fool can hold a gun. Any primitive creature with enough complexity can order a ship to bomb a world from orbit. But only a psionic can bend reality with their mind, overcoming technology and the laws of physics alike. For all our fear of the Warp and of Chaos, we Humans know, as the Eldar know, that psionics is a power like no other.

I like that quote, bet it was written by a psychic

No, I made that up and I don't have psionic talents...though I would jump at the chance to have them artificially induced

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
The Zeist campaign little description in the 5th ed codex, is a example of the uneven treatment each race gets , when featured in another codex, it always hige route this and 1 company takes a system that, at least in recent editions, the Tau are guilty of it too, in a scenario supplement where they wipe out a tyranid invasion force with minimal casulties, thats GW for you.
I like hard fought and well written battles, not off hand such and such wiped out these dudes crap.

Well, they have to advertise the factions.

EDIT: Regarding raw meat being digested improperly...sashimi

You know thats also why i champion the IA :3 book so much, I enjoy both imperial and Tau in the game, and I found the book a actually well written back and forth campaign, there were mistakes made by command, and heroic attempts at victories, and even a classic defensive action by space marines at the end, a assasin kills a ethereal, and causes the fire caste to attack recklessly at the withdrawing imperials. (that the Ethereal was going to permit to withdraw without hinderance, until he was killed.)

It even had a cool hunt the bismark story about the imperal fleet dealing with a custodian class carrier, that was raiding their supply lines and vessels.

I just wish they had more like this style of campaign line, it could be because it was between 2 forces that did not have really any weird space magic or warp stuff, just good old tech and weapons.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

EDIT: Regarding raw meat being digested improperly...sashimi

I said meat not fish!

My thoughts, perhaps, didn't come out correctly. We evolved eating raw food, much of the digestive requirements to do so we have now lost because we cook our food. We are still capable of killing our food though. And while warp entities would still be capable of attacking any Tau implanted with the Navigator Gene, it does not necessarily follow that they would be able to possess and 'open' a gateway through them.

So naively implanting the gene does not equal destruction by the warp. But again I'm seriously OT.

Cheers

Andrew

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
You know thats also why i champion the IA :3 book so much, I enjoy both imperial and Tau in the game, and I found the book a actually well written back and forth campaign, there were mistakes made by command, and heroic attempts at victories, and even a classic defensive action by space marines at the end, a assasin kills a ethereal, and causes the fire caste to attack recklessly at the withdrawing imperials. (that the Ethereal was going to permit to withdraw without hinderance, until he was killed.)

It even had a cool hunt the bismark story about the imperal fleet dealing with a custodian class carrier, that was raiding their supply lines and vessels.

Sounds great...I wish I could just download it like the BFG files from the GW website

 AndrewC wrote:
We are still capable of killing our food though.

That we are

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

Fighter and bomber wings are the Taus principle method of void war.

Ordnance superiority =/= instant win.

Ordnance can run out/malfunction. Weapon Batteries and Lances don't.

Never claimed it was.

As for 1 in 6 chance of running out of ordnance. That's a game mechanic.

Torpedoes run out if tubes are damaged or if they were short to begin with.
Fighters run out if they are destroyed, or the means to repair, and re arm them are compromised.

Also the tougher more durable the fighter/bomber means they can take more and still fight. Hence we can assume the Manta is much more combat ready because of its durability, combat capabilities, the eldar because of their capability to avoid damage.

I think the fluff regarding IoM space superiority is pretty solid. But considering the Tau have already developed responses in a short time span it doesn't speak well of the IoM mantaining their superiority. Not to mention that the Tau can already fight the IoM in space with a decent chance of victory already.

Damn, when did this thread become a railgun-waving contest?

Cause it's not really a contest. Imperium has more men, more ships and tanks and psykers to divine strategy. The only victory the Tau can achieve are temporary ones. If the Imperium would ever turn their full power against the Tau Empire, Tau would lose against overwhelming tide of military might.

Then again, the Imperium cannot spare any men to fully wipe out any of their major enemies. Because doing so would only make them lose another sector.

So the Imperium could win any other race (except the Tyranids) in a straight duel, but is surrounded by enemies it can't completely destroy.

Lumipon wrote:
Damn, when did this thread become a railgun-waving contest?

Cause it's not really a contest. Imperium has more men, more ships and tanks and psykers to divine strategy. The only victory the Tau can achieve are temporary ones. If the Imperium would ever turn their full power against the Tau Empire, Tau would lose against overwhelming tide of military might.

Then again, the Imperium cannot spare any men to fully wipe out any of their major enemies. Because doing so would only make them lose another sector.

So the Imperium could win any other race (except the Tyranids) in a straight duel, but is surrounded by enemies it can't completely destroy.

I wouldn't fancy the Imperiums chances against the Orks or necrons either.

As you say the Imperium cannot deploy its entire arsenal, its beset by too many foes. Also it could be argued that the Tau can deploy anywhere in the Empire, in numbers. The secruity and advanced weapons the Tau can provide may be a cause for someone to defect to the Greater Good at anyrate.

 Eetion wrote:

Also the tougher more durable the fighter/bomber means they can take more and still fight. Hence we can assume the Manta is much more combat ready because of its durability, combat capabilities, the eldar because of their capability to avoid damage.

I am assuming this means you consider Mantas as superior to Eldar Attack Craft. While I will acknowledge the Manta's superiority compared to the Imperial Starhawk, I have to say you are dead wrong about the Eldar. Eldar technology is millions of years ahead of everyone else except the Necrons. The only reason Human technology can barely catch up with theirs in the first place is because higher-tier Human tech is based on Necron technology. Tau have as much a chance of surpassing the Eldar as the sun rising in the west.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

Also the tougher more durable the fighter/bomber means they can take more and still fight. Hence we can assume the Manta is much more combat ready because of its durability, combat capabilities, the eldar because of their capability to avoid damage.

I am assuming this means you consider Mantas as superior to Eldar Attack Craft. While I will acknowledge the Manta's superiority compared to the Imperial Starhawk, I have to say you are dead wrong about the Eldar. Eldar technology is millions of years ahead of everyone else except the Necrons. The only reason Human technology can barely catch up with theirs in the first place is because higher-tier Human tech is based on Necron technology. Tau have as much a chance of surpassing the Eldar as the sun rising in the west.

Eldar Bombers have the same rule don't they? In the Eldars case I see it as an ability to fly rings round anything else, whereas the Manta is void shielded and more durable.

I don't think Mantas are better, but certainly more able to take a beating.

 Eetion wrote:

Eldar Bombers have the same rule don't they? In the Eldars case I see it as an ability to fly rings round anything else, whereas the Manta is void shielded and more durable.

Experienced Imperial Attack Craft squadrons have something similar too, based on the campaign rules where they gain the Eldar Attack Craft rules (fighters gain 50-50 chance of multiple interception, bombers can re-roll attack runs). Skill over technology...

yeah every story with some imperial deserters, like that one in the tau codex, seems to give me the impression that the tau brainwash other races. the imperials always come across as cult members, or like moe on the halloween special when he gets lobotomized: "it's not so bad homer, they even let you keep the little piece of brain they take out. (to brain) hey there, hello, who's that big man there, see uncle homer?"
a pox on the tau and their railguns, a pox i say! even the vile eldar are capable of good, honest human hatred

 AndrewC wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

EDIT: Regarding raw meat being digested improperly...sashimi

I said meat not fish!

People eat raw beef, and the ideal way to cook a steak is to leave it basically raw inside (I don't mean rare, I mean all but uncooked inside, just warmed up). The issue with raw meat is more one of sanitation than dietary necessity.

My thoughts, perhaps, didn't come out correctly. We evolved eating raw food, much of the digestive requirements to do so we have now lost because we cook our food. We are still capable of killing our food though. And while warp entities would still be capable of attacking any Tau implanted with the Navigator Gene, it does not necessarily follow that they would be able to possess and 'open' a gateway through them.

So naively implanting the gene does not equal destruction by the warp. But again I'm seriously OT.

Cheers

Andrew

A Tau with a navigator equivalent gene would be a psyker, and psykers can explode into daemons for basically no reason if they're not properly trained to avoid this. Presumably, if the Tau actually can genetically engineer such things, this would be discovered in the testing phase, causing the project to be abandoned.