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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
That was option 3, and Xenos have nothing to offer the Imperium aside from a planet to mine for resources or cultivate for agriculture. The Imperium has a population measured in the tens of quadrillions, and the most advanced tech of any species save for necrons and Eldar, what could some tiny, hostile, unknown quantity offer them?

And who exactly is going to mine those resources (after rebuilding the destroyed mines so you can even attempt it)? Do you really think it's a better idea to ship countless soldiers to fight an endless war of attrition and then replacement workers instead of just declaring "you're part of the Imperium, deliver the proper amounts of X, Y and Z resources to the local forge world or we'll start killing you again".

Also, Tau technology > Imperial technology unless you include all the priceless artifacts sitting in some admech fortress and never being used. So really the only faction with worse technology than the Imperium is the orks.

And before you say "what if they're not hostile?": if they're not, the Imperium has better things to do with its resources than fight some pointless war, or redirect a ship capable of performing exterminatus; if the Imperium is at war with xenos, it's because the xenos are hostile.

Except that's not true at all. Remember the part where the Imperium has a religious duty to cleanse the galaxy of xenos? And where chapters like BT are dedicated to killing any non-human that they can find?

Gorgon: the smallest and most pathetic fleet from a species defined by being small and pathetic, but nearly enough to wipe out the Tau.

You mean from a species defined as being endless in quantity, almost impossible to defeat once they make the first invasion on a planet, even more endless in quality once they devour your entire planet and turn you into more Tyranids, and still only a tiny fraction of their full potential. I guess you must have missed the part where the Tyranids are explicitly stated to be the greatest long-term threat to the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Broadsides are better for the points, particularly since in apoc you don't have a FOC and can deploy each one as its own unit.

And you still have to hit, penetrate armor, and get through cover saves. To even match a Tigershark's railguns (against AV 14, the only thing that matters) you need 5-6 Broadsides, and the Tigershark has a decisive advantage in speed and durability.

av10

AV 12.

warhound, the absolute bane (for its point cost at least, though reaver titans are slightly nicer in some ways) of everything on land aside from the bs op tyranid heirophant.

Yes, double turbolaser Warhounds are way too cheap. By that standard pretty much every single thing in the 40k universe that isn't an Imperial D-spam titan is terrible.

PS: a Warhound still explodes from a single railcannon shot.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Okay i'll just throw it out there, i don't like the tau. I stopped playing 40k when they came out and i've only just got back into it. I bought the tau codex when it came out and didn't like the fact that GW made a race that everyone would go out and buy because they had the then-strongest weapon and their basic troops had massively powerful weapons for a relatively low points cost. i also don't like that they were sold as the innocent good guys that will make people argue that the imperium is too cruel, and that they fought for a really crappy reason called "the greater good". i could not stop thinking about the part in hot fuzz when all the oldies keep chanting the greater good. even the necrons, cheap as they were, were evil and nefarious and made a firm stand about being intent on murdering everyone. that i can understand. the Tau just seem like the new eldar on the block, but at least the eldar have a rich heritage and personality. i really wish GW had just made the eldar better than invent the Tau. They even made a terrible ps2 game just to advertise how cool the tau were. I'm not being an imperial purist here, i would gladly play necrons, chaos, nids, and i did used to play dark eldar.

Funny thing. I also hated the Tau when they first came out. Something about them just rubbed me the wrong way. I hated their vehicles, I hated their infantry, I hated their ideology, I thought Kroot were stupid looking, etc. I thought "who does this new race think it is, popping up out of nowhere, acting like they own the galaxy?"
I'm not really sure what the turning point was for me. It may be that I've always had a soft spot for the underdog. I played Tyranids in 2nd edition when they were ugly and nearly impossible to win with. Then I played Dark Eldar from 3rd until they got a new codex. Now I'm picking up Tau. I came to realize they are the underdogs of the universe, but they were given the means to stick up for themselves. Then at some point I realized that I love the way they look.

They are not naive, like everybody says. They've been attacked by everything and managed to pull through. Not by weight of numbers, but by flexible technology, adaptable tactics and good military leadership. Most of their fighting has been to defend their open-minded way of life. They view their success to be a result of their progressive ideology and pragmatism rather than a result having properly blessed their guns that morning. They believe in action.

I respect Imperial Guard and think they make awesome subject matter for books and movies. Though I think Tau are closer to our modern military.

I just plain hate SMs. It is frustrating to see the ignorant, arrogant bastards consistently win every single battle they're in, no matter the odds. They are the disgusting bullies who beat up kids at school while bragging about how cool they are, yet they never get in trouble. Ugh... Just yuck... If there are any books wherein SMs get their butts kicked, I read them. So far the Fire Warrior book has done the best job... Just another reason to like the Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
A pulse rifle holds 36 rounds, meaning it holds about half what a lasgun does,

Only according to the Fire Warrior game. In FPS games reloading feels cool and adds an element of suspense to the fighting. According to the actual fluff that I'm familiar with, a Pulse Rifle ammo drum holds 250-400 rounds.

but also has a tremendous range advantage and deals damage similar to a Heavy bolter.

Fixed that for ya.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
They're called macrocannons. They fire kiloton-grade metallic projectiles at relativistic speeds. Imperial/Chaos warships pack bank upon bank of these things along with laser/plasma/melta cannons in their Weapon Batteries. Compared to Tau vessels' ship-mounted Railguns, Imperial/Chaos Weapon Batteries pack a heavier punch.

Macrocannons are NOT mass drivers (at least not EM ones, though a rare variant exists that uses gravity manipulation to propel the charge).

Source? Without one, I will continue to assume they are, since nothing actually contradicts the assumption.

Admiral Valerian wrote:
And yes, I would argue large-scale Imperial energy sources are better than what the Tau have, considering that Imperial plasma reactors can power huge vessels and planet-sized cities. Or...the Imperials just build more reactors as needed.

The Imperium takes years to build a starship engine. Further, the Tau have reactors that are ever bit as efficient and probably more so, as they too power massive space platforms and huge starships.

Correction, it takes years to build a starship. Plasma reactors are easily built, seeing as these are the staple Imperial energy source.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
just curious but when did Lasgun cells being charged in sunlight stop being canon?

Not entirely sure. I don't remember it being in the most recent Codex: IG, Imperial Munitorum Manual says they can be put in a fire to recharge but this negatively effects them, and the Dark Heresy RPG (and all it's subsidiary games) agrees in this. Dark Heresy states they can be recharged from a suitable power source such as a generator with a simple tech use check, with the amount of time left up to the GM, or they can be placed in an open flame for 24 hours to charge them that way.

In other words, nothing really contradicts they can be recharged in open sunlight. Right, we're done here.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
That was option 3, and Xenos have nothing to offer the Imperium aside from a planet to mine for resources or cultivate for agriculture. The Imperium has a population measured in the tens of quadrillions, and the most advanced tech of any species save for necrons and Eldar, what could some tiny, hostile, unknown quantity offer them?

And who exactly is going to mine those resources (after rebuilding the destroyed mines so you can even attempt it)? Do you really think it's a better idea to ship countless soldiers to fight an endless war of attrition and then replacement workers instead of just declaring "you're part of the Imperium, deliver the proper amounts of X, Y and Z resources to the local forge world or we'll start killing you again".

A century or a few decades versus letting an unknown quantity into the fold. A little time is nothing compared to the danger dealing with xenos brings.

Also, Tau technology > Imperial technology unless you include all the priceless artifacts sitting in some admech fortress and never being used. So really the only faction with worse technology than the Imperium is the orks.

We've been over this. You're just judging a book by its mass-produced marvel-of-engineering frontline military equipment. For every fancy toy the Tau have, the Imperium has a better version, and more of it.

Except that's not true at all. Remember the part where the Imperium has a religious duty to cleanse the galaxy of xenos? And where chapters like BT are dedicated to killing any non-human that they can find?

Remember the part where the Imperium has priorities and limited resources? We have Inquisitors disregarding wannabe heretics that aren't politically powerful (and thus revolutionaries) or actively consorting with daemons or xenos as too petty to waste time dealing with. Hell, we have inquistors working with Eldar or even Tau on occasion. Not to mention the rogue traders who are given license to deal with non-Imperium entities (except chaos), provided they don't try to sell xenos artifacts to civilians.

You mean from a species defined as being endless in quantity, almost impossible to defeat once they make the first invasion on a planet, even more endless in quality once they devour your entire planet and turn you into more Tyranids, and still only a tiny fraction of their full potential. I guess you must have missed the part where the Tyranids are explicitly stated to be the greatest long-term threat to the galaxy.

Taglines are rarely backed up in the fluff. The Tyranids so far have folded whenever the Navy engages them, and almost whenever the Guard does. The damage they've done to the Imperium is trivial compared to the Imperium as a whole. While the smallest and most pitiful hive fleet to date, barely larger than the splinter fleets routinely trounced by the Guard, almost eradicated the Tau.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Broadsides are better for the points, particularly since in apoc you don't have a FOC and can deploy each one as its own unit.

And you still have to hit, penetrate armor, and get through cover saves. To even match a Tigershark's railguns (against AV 14, the only thing that matters) you need 5-6 Broadsides, and the Tigershark has a decisive advantage in speed and durability.

They have basically the same chance to hit (88% versus 75%) and are we even sure the tigershark's railgun autopens? It has a strength of ten, in IA3, IA Apoc, and IA Apoc second edition, compared to the manta's heavy railgun which has a strength of D. And the tigershark costs 9.4 times as much as a broadside.

av10

AV 12.

Unless it's been erratad, no, it's av10. In every book it appears in.

warhound, the absolute bane (for its point cost at least, though reaver titans are slightly nicer in some ways) of everything on land aside from the bs op tyranid heirophant.

Yes, double turbolaser Warhounds are way too cheap. By that standard pretty much every single thing in the 40k universe that isn't an Imperial D-spam titan is terrible.

Four large blasts that can be aimed at two targets isn't all that great on it's own, considering how easy it dies. Compare to the manta, with its ten structure points at av13 and "magically ignores half of all hits because we want to sell a $1500 model to waac tfgs with too much money", or the hierophant with its ten wounds at t10 with a 3++ invuln and ridiculous biocannons. Turbolaser warhounds beat superheavy vehicles and laugh at pricy and tough junk like landraiders, but aren't all that great against their points in a more balanced list. Two of them and a laser blaster reaver with apoc missile launcher starting in reserve would be a ridiculous alpha strike against anything. Throw in a couple of thunderbolts to keep the tigersharks away...

Not that that's a realistic setup for anyone sane, but still...

PS: a Warhound still explodes from a single railcannon shot.

Only if you've brought down its void shields and get really lucky with your rolls.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
A century or a few decades versus letting an unknown quantity into the fold. A little time is nothing compared to the danger dealing with xenos brings.

Exactly. The Imperium is paranoid about what might happen so they just kill everything. You realize that this is being portrayed as a bad thing, right?

We've been over this. You're just judging a book by its mass-produced marvel-of-engineering frontline military equipment. For every fancy toy the Tau have, the Imperium has a better version, and more of it.

And your point is? A few one-of-a-kind artifacts locked away in an admech fortress somewhere and never used are completely irrelevant. Technology that you have and never use is no better than technology you don't have at all.

Also, you're missing one big difference: the Tau understand their technology. The Imperium doesn't. All they can do is mass produce some of it, as long as all the proper blueprints are there along with step by step directions for how to use them. There's no understanding or innovation, just mindless repetition.

Taglines are rarely backed up in the fluff. The Tyranids so far have folded whenever the Navy engages them, and almost whenever the Guard does. The damage they've done to the Imperium is trivial compared to the Imperium as a whole. While the smallest and most pitiful hive fleet to date, barely larger than the splinter fleets routinely trounced by the Guard, almost eradicated the Tau.

Yeah, just keep inventing your own fluff.

They have basically the same chance to hit (88% versus 75%) and are we even sure the tigershark's railgun autopens? It has a strength of ten, in IA3, IA Apoc, and IA Apoc second edition, compared to the manta's heavy railgun which has a strength of D. And the tigershark costs 9.4 times as much as a broadside.

Unless it's been erratad, no, it's av10. In every book it appears in.

You just have the old rules. Buy IA:Aeronautica if you want to continue the discussion.

Four large blasts that can be aimed at two targets isn't all that great on it's own, considering how easy it dies.

Remember the whole auto wound, auto pen, no cover thing? Taking four Shadowswords to duplicate a Warhound's firepower would be 1800 points compared to 750 for the Warhound. That is ridiculously cheap.

Compare to the manta, with its ten structure points at av13 and "magically ignores half of all hits because we want to sell a $1500 model to waac tfgs with too much money,

And a 2000+ point price tag. Mantas are terrible rules-wise, the only reason to ever take one is because you want to show off your awesome model. WAAC TFGs aren't even going to consider one.

or the hierophant with its ten wounds at t10 with a 3++ invuln and ridiculous biocannons.

It only "has" a 3++ because of obsolete rules getting changed in an unrelated book. Once the rules are reprinted it will no longer have a 3++. And RAW it doesn't have a 3++ at all.

Only if you've brought down its void shields and get really lucky with your rolls.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

The fluff explicitly states that a Tigershark can one-shot a Warhound. And it says nothing about amazing luck, the Tigershark just shows up and immediately blows away a Warhound.

 Peregrine wrote:


Also, you're missing one big difference: the Tau understand their technology. The Imperium doesn't. All they can do is mass produce some of it, as long as all the proper blueprints are there along with step by step directions for how to use them. There's no understanding or innovation, just mindless repetition.

Actually, they do understand. They just wrap it up in dogma and ritual. While innovation and creativity are frowned upon, improvement is not. Existing technology is improved as needed, hence countless variations of basically the same piece of Imperial technology for countless situations it is called upon. And there's recovery of Golden Age data (which surpasses the technology of any other species other than Eldar and Necrons), and reverse-engineering of non-interdicted Xenos technology.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
A century or a few decades versus letting an unknown quantity into the fold. A little time is nothing compared to the danger dealing with xenos brings.

Exactly. The Imperium is paranoid about what might happen so they just kill everything. You realize that this is being portrayed as a bad thing, right?

Except for the whole "they're right" bit. Xenos have nothing to offer the Imperium through assimilation, and consistently prove treacherous and predatory in their dealings with humans. It's like how mutants consistently prove psychotic chaos worshippers, or rogue psykers are defined by being sociopathic mental cases who often just explode into daemons.

We've been over this. You're just judging a book by its mass-produced marvel-of-engineering frontline military equipment. For every fancy toy the Tau have, the Imperium has a better version, and more of it.

And your point is? A few one-of-a-kind artifacts locked away in an admech fortress somewhere and never used are completely irrelevant. Technology that you have and never use is no better than technology you don't have at all.

Also, you're missing one big difference: the Tau understand their technology. The Imperium doesn't. All they can do is mass produce some of it, as long as all the proper blueprints are there along with step by step directions for how to use them. There's no understanding or innovation, just mindless repetition.

A) You really don't get what the AdMech is or does. B) Ok, let's play this game. Name a Tau tech and I'll give you a superior, and more prolific, Imperial tech.

To head you off: stealth suits < anything the officio assassinorum uses (rare, but more common in the grander scheme of things than stealth suits), crisis suits < power armor (more compact and maneuverable, can also be outfitted with jetpacks, doesn't drive its wearer insane), pulse rifles < Imperial plasma weapons (more compact and powerful, rarely used because plasma weapons are pricy and inefficient), skimmer tanks < imperial gunships (faster, cheaper, better equipped, and also not a light tank pretending it can fly), broadsides < artillery (better range, better damage output). And so on and so on. I suppose I am conflating "superior" and "more advanced" a bit with some of those, but considering the giant collection of various weapons systems and miscellaneous junk we know the AdMech has, from the large collection of fluff references and RPG sourcebooks, it would probably be possible to find more specific, but obscure, examples.

Yeah, just keep inventing your own fluff.

You're underestimating how ridiculously huge the Imperium is, and how small its ridiculously huge military is next to that. The damage the Tyranids have inflicted, as described, has taken less than a thousandth of the Imperium. Now true, that's hundreds of times greater than anything but chaos has managed, but it's still rather trivial compared to the whole, when you think about it.

You just have the old rules. Buy IA:Aeronautica if you want to continue the discussion.

Screw that, my money's going to malifaux these days. I just like 40k's fluff significantly better.

Remember the whole auto wound, auto pen, no cover thing? Taking four Shadowswords to duplicate a Warhound's firepower would be 1800 points compared to 750 for the Warhound. That is ridiculously cheap.

Yeah but, shadowswords are rubbish superheavies. Most of the superheavies are pretty rubbish, honestly. Turbolaser warhounds are just dedicated anti-superheavies that happen to also be good if suboptimal against other vehicles and the more elite infantry pieces. Unless you're spamming sD large blasts, and so can just wipe out most of the board in one round of shooting, and have some dedicated fighters to deal with pesky flyers.

And a 2000+ point price tag. Mantas are terrible rules-wise, the only reason to ever take one is because you want to show off your awesome model. WAAC TFGs aren't even going to consider one.

It's a magical pile of invincible guns. It might not have 2000 points of firepower per turn, but it's still av13 with ten structure points and a 4++ save.

It only "has" a 3++ because of obsolete rules getting changed in an unrelated book. Once the rules are reprinted it will no longer have a 3++. And RAW it doesn't have a 3++ at all.

Like its original 5++ is so much better. It's far tougher than what its points in firepower can hit it with, and it can cripple or outright kill two titans per turn, for less than a reaver costs.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

The fluff explicitly states that a Tigershark can one-shot a Warhound. And it says nothing about amazing luck, the Tigershark just shows up and immediately blows away a Warhound.

I thought you were still talking about the rules, since you put it right next to them and all. And you're looking at only about a 12% chance if the shields are down ruleswise.

And that fluff was the Taros campaign, in which guardsmen split up to make nicer targets, tanks become infantry mid-paragraph, and markerlights outrange leman russes. It's like a literate version of Ward's ramblings.

You know, I'm surprised you guys haven't spotted one weakness of Tau railguns: they're limited to linear fire. In other words, the shots can only fly straight and are incapable of indirect fire. Imperial gunnery, on the other hand, are capable of both linear fire and indirect fire.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm surprised you guys haven't spotted one weakness of Tau railguns: they're limited to linear fire. In other words, the shots can only fly straight and are incapable of indirect fire. Imperial gunnery, on the other hand, are capable of both linear fire and indirect fire.

But they have magical invisible markerlight platforms and perfectly accurate "over-the-horizon" magic missiles that can do anything! Why would they need proper ordnance?

To the OP- have you even read the intro to 40k? The Imperium of Man is not a fun place to live in. Maybe under a Tau regime some people would feel safer...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm surprised you guys haven't spotted one weakness of Tau railguns: they're limited to linear fire. In other words, the shots can only fly straight and are incapable of indirect fire. Imperial gunnery, on the other hand, are capable of both linear fire and indirect fire.

But they have magical invisible markerlight platforms and perfectly accurate "over-the-horizon" magic missiles that can do anything! Why would they need proper ordnance?

The same reason our modern militaries use ordnance despite such things like 'fire-and-forget'/over-the-horizon weapons. I have an uncle who serves in the army. I asked him that question once some time back; the answer was there's no real replacement for such time-tested and repeatedly proven as reliable a military asset like artillery. I recall he even said he'd take/choose an artillery barrage over an air strike given the choice.

@angelofvengeance

Exaggeration. The Imperium cannot be that bad, otherwise Mankind would have burned out in less than a millennia.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm surprised you guys haven't spotted one weakness of Tau railguns: they're limited to linear fire. In other words, the shots can only fly straight and are incapable of indirect fire. Imperial gunnery, on the other hand, are capable of both linear fire and indirect fire.

But they have magical invisible markerlight platforms and perfectly accurate "over-the-horizon" magic missiles that can do anything! Why would they need proper ordnance?

The same reason our modern militaries use ordnance despite such things like 'fire-and-forget'/over-the-horizon weapons. I have an uncle who serves in the army. I asked him that question once some time back; the answer was there's no real replacement for such time-tested and repeatedly proven as reliable a military asset like artillery. I recall he even said he'd take/choose an artillery barrage over an air strike given the choice.

I was being sarcastic. I had a longer bit about seeker missiles secretly being large blasts that gain sD on a markerlight to hit of 4+, but decided it was too over-the-top. It was pretty much directly related to peregrine's insistence that the Tau would have won Vraks instantly because seeker missiles.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm surprised you guys haven't spotted one weakness of Tau railguns: they're limited to linear fire. In other words, the shots can only fly straight and are incapable of indirect fire. Imperial gunnery, on the other hand, are capable of both linear fire and indirect fire.

But they have magical invisible markerlight platforms and perfectly accurate "over-the-horizon" magic missiles that can do anything! Why would they need proper ordnance?

The same reason our modern militaries use ordnance despite such things like 'fire-and-forget'/over-the-horizon weapons. I have an uncle who serves in the army. I asked him that question once some time back; the answer was there's no real replacement for such time-tested and repeatedly proven as reliable a military asset like artillery. I recall he even said he'd take/choose an artillery barrage over an air strike given the choice.

I was being sarcastic. I had a longer bit about seeker missiles secretly being large blasts that gain sD on a markerlight to hit of 4+, but decided it was too over-the-top. It was pretty much directly related to peregrine's insistence that the Tau would have won Vraks instantly because seeker missiles.

Fat chance. The defenders would just hole up and force the enemy to come to them. The Tau would have bled to death, so to speak.

I was a 13F for 3 combat deployments, well kinda 2.5 (got blown up ), and for all non MOS savvy types a 13F is a forward observer, calls in arty..savvy.

And I too always prefered having arty on call rather than waiting for air, but it has nothing to do with accuracy, it has to do with reaction, planes come in drop and leave, but having arty on call means you have it when you need it, not wait for the ROZ to be clear, and for them to spot the target engage , and exit.

Air power is awesome when it has specific targets and is there, but its hard to beat having 155mm on call. a little HE/WP shake and bake.

Back to the Tau, my guess is based on some of the stuff in apoc expansions, the tau use large missles/rockets for artillery sine they have 2 kinds mentioned in the book, Darkstar warheads that use neutron pulses destroy biological matter but leave materials unharmed, and Icefire warheads that use EMP to destroy tech stuff, no real mention of how its deployed, likely mantas, or maybe even a variation of the skyray, kinda like a MLRs.

And as to vraks..Tau would not have fought it, if its not a fight they can execute with their doctrine, they will not waste the resources.

Tau have neutron and EMP bombs? But then again, the Imperium has virus and vortex weaponry, so it's not really that bad a trade-off I suppose...

yup, and emp bombs, and they are persistant.

The Tau trade indiscrimante damage for more surgical weapons, you can tailor the weapons for the threat.

And I would venture to guess Tau have these available a bit more readily than the IoM has virus and Vortex..since those have become fairly rare.

But its not about what trumps what, its just a discussion about what they have and what it does.

Regarding Vraks or a similar situation, how would the Tau handle it? Or are they just gonna leave Chaos taint to fester? I'm not sure that's wise; even if they blockade the system, letting Chaos grow strong is just inviting it and it's followers to come and face you on their terms.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Fat chance. The defenders would just hole up and force the enemy to come to them. The Tau would have bled to death, so to speak.

Don't forget that the Imperial force that took... what was it? Several decades, wasn't it? To take Vraks was quite a bit larger than the force committed to the Damocles Gulf crusade, which would have wiped the Tau out had its legs not been pulled out from under it to react to Behemoth.


And, further against seeker missiles is the requirement of an independent targeter, while the Imperial version are slightly less accurate but can just be up and fired on their own, without needing a big flashing sign placed on their target. and of course the other Imperial version, that's also ordnance (meaning it hits armor harder (roll 2d6 to pen, use the highest), unless that's changed in 6th; I haven't pored over the 6th ed rules in much detail, and considering it's driven me away from the game I'm not planning to), though no longer infinite range (instead being on par with a railgun's range).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Fat chance. The defenders would just hole up and force the enemy to come to them. The Tau would have bled to death, so to speak.

Don't forget that the Imperial force that took... what was it? Several decades, wasn't it? To take Vraks was quite a bit larger than the force committed to the Damocles Gulf crusade, which would have wiped the Tau out had its legs not been pulled out from under it to react to Behemoth.

Hmmm...the Damocles Gulf Crusade doesn't really qualify as a full-on crusade by the time it reached Dal'yth. It might have, had reinforcements been deployed, but Behemoth arrived and the rest is history.

Regarding virus and vortex weapons, it's not they're rare, more like so powerful that the use of the former is restricted to the Inquisition/Astartes, and use of the latter requires authorization from really high up (at least that AFAIK regarding vortex weapons).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Regarding Vraks or a similar situation, how would the Tau handle it? Or are they just gonna leave Chaos taint to fester? I'm not sure that's wise; even if they blockade the system, letting Chaos grow strong is just inviting it and it's followers to come and face you on their terms.

You never fight a enemy on their terms, varks would be dependant on what the Tau have and what is in the balance, if they have sufficent forces likely it would be a matter of a fluid seige, roving units destroying hardpoints and withdrawing and then hitting from another direction, using concentration of force, and attempting to goad the enemy into leaving their positions into waiting ambush zones, or maybe sustained bombardment by the above mentioned weapons.
Or a false withdrawl to entice the defenders out, the Tau have a mobility advantage that they would not give up.

Its a interesting mind game, but I would need hard facts on numbers, maps, and various assets to make a actual battle plan.

Lol, but let's not forget the frakheads on Vraks had access to Daemons and all sorts of gak. And Chaos Space Marines too

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Regarding Vraks or a similar situation, how would the Tau handle it? Or are they just gonna leave Chaos taint to fester? I'm not sure that's wise; even if they blockade the system, letting Chaos grow strong is just inviting it and it's followers to come and face you on their terms.

You never fight a enemy on their terms, varks would be dependant on what the Tau have and what is in the balance, if they have sufficent forces likely it would be a matter of a fluid seige, roving units destroying hardpoints and withdrawing and then hitting from another direction, using concentration of force, and attempting to goad the enemy into leaving their positions into waiting ambush zones, or maybe sustained bombardment by the above mentioned weapons.
Or a false withdrawl to entice the defenders out, the Tau have a mobility advantage that they would not give up.

Its a interesting mind game, but I would need hard facts on numbers, maps, and various assets to make a actual battle plan.

The citadel on Vraks had three defensive lines outside its curtain wall, representing thousands of years of construction to produce as impenetrable barrier as possible, with a myriad of hardened anti-orbital defenses, artillery everywhere, and enough ammo to keep up a constant heavy barrage for decades. And it withstood a force far greater than the Tau could muster for decades before cracking.

The initial approach alone is a nightmare to say the least. Apart from the ODPs and orbital docks/Space Stations in high orbit, the entire system would be crawling with Chaos ships. The landings would probably be bloody too; a world like Vraks would have plenty of defense lasers, missile silos, and air bases to spare.

The point would be..why do the Tau need to take this planet, whats its importance to the overall goals of the campaign, if its that big of a nightmare of a defence then you dont attack it directly, and if you cannot, you dont waste yourself on a futile attack. again descriptions of huge , impregnable..yadda yadda, does not provide what is required to give a actual battleplan, its just plays on words, that people like to toss around to make things seem awesome.

But seeing as Admiral Valerian actually gives some hurdles that have substance, you start picking at it from initial approach, deal with the ships..acheive orbital superiority, land no where near the main objectives, and force your enemy to leave his nice holes to come kill you.

It would take time and patience, and a different approach than the IoM generally uses, not better or worse just different.

Well. The Tau wouldn't bother building a fort like Vraks, they favor a fluid movement and defence. If it was the Tau in charge, there would have been no wall, nor any civil war in all likelihood, doctrine is to the Greater Good, not to individuals.

As for the whole marker lights outranging battlecannons, that's a game mechanic. In fluff you can only target a person if you are aware they are there. Pathfinders hide and mark target, the russes have to find them first.

Also artillery v seekers isn't the same as arty v airstrike.
A more appropriate comparison would be...

Arty v any/every vehicle in your force, can have the capacity to call an airstrike type attack at a moments notice with no line of sight, with the strike needing no effort or awareness of the driver or pilot.
Now ask, if every humvee, ifv, mbt and aircraft had the capability to make a strike on your demand. Artillery can engage 1 target at a time, seekers as many as you need at whatever location you need it at any given time.

 Eetion wrote:

Now ask, if every humvee, ifv, mbt and aircraft had the capability to make a strike on your demand. Artillery can engage 1 target at a time, seekers as many as you need at whatever location you need it at any given time.

You do realize there's such a thing as direction-finders, right? From what I know (which might be wrong) those things can track long-range missiles and pass on the origin to artillery real quick. After which say goodbye to the missile batteries. Even if you move the batteries immediately after firing, knowing the Imperial Guard they'd probably saturate not just the origin but also several square kilometers with high explosive.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

But seeing as Admiral Valerian actually gives some hurdles that have substance, you start picking at it from initial approach, deal with the ships..acheive orbital superiority, land no where near the main objectives, and force your enemy to leave his nice holes to come kill you.

I don't have the details, but I do know that at least one Chaos Battle Barge and it's Escorts were present, though that was only towards the end. At the beginning, there were entire Chaos Fleets in system engaging the Imperial Navy. I've already given my assumptions (quite reasonable ones IMO) regarding the ODPs and other fixed defenses in my earlier post.

And they can track the direction of an insubstantial beam of light. And given that the Imps haven't been able to utilise it, its pretty safe to assume they have no luck replicating that.

And anything with a mseeker is mobile and doesn't require being stationary. In a pirahnas case or a baracudas sfaster than any Arty can track at anyrate.

 Eetion wrote:


And anything with a mseeker is mobile and doesn't require being stationary. In a pirahnas case or a baracudas sfaster than any Arty can track at anyrate.

Hence saturating not just the origin but several square kilometers or more around it with artillery.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:


And anything with a mseeker is mobile and doesn't require being stationary. In a pirahnas case or a baracudas sfaster than any Arty can track at anyrate.

Hence saturating not just the origin but several square kilometers or more around it with artillery.

In a balanced conflict between IG and Tau, without either having overwhelming advantage in position or numbers, the IG would have to use alot of shoot and scoot with their arty, due to tau stealth teams, stealth remoras, and remote marker drones, so a static arty park would be a deathtrap, limiting barrages to short intensive ones, I would love to hear a account of this kind of engagement where there is no forordained outcome.

On demand with a reliable chance of knocking the enemy out?
We don't even know that the Seeker takes the most direct route to the target. And if the imperium has such powerful artillery capability why isn't it an insta win in every conflict they fight?

The pirahna has a speed of 180kph, the Sky ray, hammerhead, devilfish 70kph. Arty will have a hard time of it even if they did have a capability.

Also its unlikely to be just 1 seeker launch, it might be 5 or 10 or 20 from several different locations at different targets. Which do the arty target?