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 Eetion wrote:


Also its unlikely to be just 1 seeker launch, it might be 5 or 10 or 20 from several different locations at different targets. Which do the arty target?

The Guard loves artillery. More than enough to simultaneously bombard multiple targets.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:


And anything with a mseeker is mobile and doesn't require being stationary. In a pirahnas case or a baracudas sfaster than any Arty can track at anyrate.

Hence saturating not just the origin but several square kilometers or more around it with artillery.

In a balanced conflict between IG and Tau, without either having overwhelming advantage in position or numbers, the IG would have to use alot of shoot and scoot with their arty, due to tau stealth teams, stealth remoras, and remote marker drones, so a static arty park would be a deathtrap, limiting barrages to short intensive ones, I would love to hear a account of this kind of engagement where there is no forordained outcome.

Yeah, me too. Somehow I'm reminded of the old simulation plans I used to come across in my uncle's house, about NATO vs. USSR. In this case, the Imperial Guard would be the tank/artillery-heavy invading Red Army, and Tau would be the highly-mobile defending Allied forces. And from what I can remember, Tau/Allied victory would depend on stalling the Imperial Guard/Red Army long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Pretty good anology, the single biggest advantage the Tau have is the fact their entire combat force, (other than allies) is air mobile, so bridges, roads, terrain, is only a factor for cover and striking positions, and in a un hindered enviroment (not 6'X4' ), this would be a huge manuver advantage.
Again it would be a interesting mental diversion.

In that situation, the Tau would do well to avoid head-on confrontations, use guerilla tactics to slow down the Imperial advance, disrupting supply operations and prioritizing the elimination of enemy commanders. Another aspect of this situation which is similar to Cold War simulations is the air war. Like the Soviets, the invading Imperials would probably have superior numbers of Attack Craft. This could turn the tide in favor of the Imperium; rather than engaging the Imperial Attack Craft head on, it would perhaps be better if the Tau concentrated on destroying/capturing the Imperial air bases. Easier said than done, of course. The bases will be heavily defended, and the Imperium would know they are priority targets.

Another similar aspect would be the use of proxies. And once again, the Soviets/Imperials have the advantage over the Tau/Allies, having more experience manipulating 'lesser' species such as Orks and Tyranids.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Regarding Vraks or a similar situation, how would the Tau handle it? Or are they just gonna leave Chaos taint to fester? I'm not sure that's wise; even if they blockade the system, letting Chaos grow strong is just inviting it and it's followers to come and face you on their terms.

Stealth teams. What else would you use in a siege.

Be careful of calling advantages that are situational based, intrinsic abilities can be counted on, situational ones cannot, air combat would be a tight ran affair, the tau air caste is becoming a serious threat to even the experianced imperial fight/ground support arms, so thats a toss up.

and who says the imperials are invading, it could be a meeting engagement over a valuable planet , try to focus on how they would fight and not why they would win.

And as to superior numbers of attack craft that again gets into predetermining a advantage. Tau do not usually make a point of assaulting positions, they usually focus more on destroying the forces, so to whittle down air power it would likely use the "patient hunter doctrine, and give the imerials something so tempting as to lure the airpower into a ambush, as has been stated before the Tau dont fight wars quite the way the rest of the 40k universe has been.

And its why I like them.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Regarding Vraks or a similar situation, how would the Tau handle it? Or are they just gonna leave Chaos taint to fester? I'm not sure that's wise; even if they blockade the system, letting Chaos grow strong is just inviting it and it's followers to come and face you on their terms.

Stealth teams. What else would you use in a siege.

Daemons, witches, and daemonhosts. Yum yum, delicious sushi (if you read Wobbly Model Syndrome, then you'd understand the sushi reference ).

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:


and who says the imperials are invading, it could be a meeting engagement over a valuable planet , try to focus on how they would fight and not why they would win.

Who holds the world, Tau or Imperium? And how valuable? If it's too valuable, the Lord Admirals just might send in some of the larger naval formations.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Regarding Vraks or a similar situation, how would the Tau handle it? Or are they just gonna leave Chaos taint to fester? I'm not sure that's wise; even if they blockade the system, letting Chaos grow strong is just inviting it and it's followers to come and face you on their terms.

Stealth teams. What else would you use in a siege.

Daemons, witches, and daemonhosts. Yum yum, delicious sushi (if you read Wobbly Model Syndrome, then you'd understand the sushi reference).

So are you saying daemons, witches, and daemon hosts can see the pets of houris in there stealth suits, or what are you saying.

since its a mental exercise its a balanced engagement with no one side being at a advantage, so space is contested, air is contested and ground is contested, but that is hard to express over a chat, since it becomes a exercise in oneupmanship.

Removed

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Regarding Vraks or a similar situation, how would the Tau handle it? Or are they just gonna leave Chaos taint to fester? I'm not sure that's wise; even if they blockade the system, letting Chaos grow strong is just inviting it and it's followers to come and face you on their terms.

Stealth teams. What else would you use in a siege.

Daemons, witches, and daemonhosts. Yum yum, delicious sushi (if you read Wobbly Model Syndrome, then you'd understand the sushi reference).

So are you saying daemons, witches, and daemon hosts can see the pets of houris in their stealth suits, or what are you saying.

They all have access to warp magic and as a result could conceivable use that power to detect enemies who would otherwise remain undetected.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


Also, you're missing one big difference: the Tau understand their technology. The Imperium doesn't. All they can do is mass produce some of it, as long as all the proper blueprints are there along with step by step directions for how to use them. There's no understanding or innovation, just mindless repetition.

Actually, they do understand. They just wrap it up in dogma and ritual. While innovation and creativity are frowned upon, improvement is not. Existing technology is improved as needed, hence countless variations of basically the same piece of Imperial technology for countless situations it is called upon. And there's recovery of Golden Age data (which surpasses the technology of any other species other than Eldar and Necrons), and reverse-engineering of non-interdicted Xenos technology.

historically, steel was made using a prayer of a given length during smelting. at the time they thought it was the prayer, but it turned out the guy who invented the prayer wanted an easy way to remember how long you needed to heat it for. i kinda figure thats what the imperium's views are like. they relgicize (?) their tech so illiterate, superstitious workers in wooden huts on deathworlds can still make it reliably


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Archonate wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Okay i'll just throw it out there, i don't like the tau. I stopped playing 40k when they came out and i've only just got back into it. I bought the tau codex when it came out and didn't like the fact that GW made a race that everyone would go out and buy because they had the then-strongest weapon and their basic troops had massively powerful weapons for a relatively low points cost. i also don't like that they were sold as the innocent good guys that will make people argue that the imperium is too cruel, and that they fought for a really crappy reason called "the greater good". i could not stop thinking about the part in hot fuzz when all the oldies keep chanting the greater good. even the necrons, cheap as they were, were evil and nefarious and made a firm stand about being intent on murdering everyone. that i can understand. the Tau just seem like the new eldar on the block, but at least the eldar have a rich heritage and personality. i really wish GW had just made the eldar better than invent the Tau. They even made a terrible ps2 game just to advertise how cool the tau were. I'm not being an imperial purist here, i would gladly play necrons, chaos, nids, and i did used to play dark eldar.

Funny thing. I also hated the Tau when they first came out. Something about them just rubbed me the wrong way. I hated their vehicles, I hated their infantry, I hated their ideology, I thought Kroot were stupid looking, etc. I thought "who does this new race think it is, popping up out of nowhere, acting like they own the galaxy?"
I'm not really sure what the turning point was for me. It may be that I've always had a soft spot for the underdog. I played Tyranids in 2nd edition when they were ugly and nearly impossible to win with. Then I played Dark Eldar from 3rd until they got a new codex. Now I'm picking up Tau. I came to realize they are the underdogs of the universe, but they were given the means to stick up for themselves. Then at some point I realized that I love the way they look.

They are not naive, like everybody says. They've been attacked by everything and managed to pull through. Not by weight of numbers, but by flexible technology, adaptable tactics and good military leadership. Most of their fighting has been to defend their open-minded way of life. They view their success to be a result of their progressive ideology and pragmatism rather than a result having properly blessed their guns that morning. They believe in action.

I respect Imperial Guard and think they make awesome subject matter for books and movies. Though I think Tau are closer to our modern military.

I just plain hate SMs. It is frustrating to see the ignorant, arrogant bastards consistently win every single battle they're in, no matter the odds. They are the disgusting bullies who beat up kids at school while bragging about how cool they are, yet they never get in trouble. Ugh... Just yuck... If there are any books wherein SMs get their butts kicked, I read them. So far the Fire Warrior book has done the best job... Just another reason to like the Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
A pulse rifle holds 36 rounds, meaning it holds about half what a lasgun does,

Only according to the Fire Warrior game. In FPS games reloading feels cool and adds an element of suspense to the fighting. According to the actual fluff that I'm familiar with, a Pulse Rifle ammo drum holds 250-400 rounds.

but also has a tremendous range advantage and deals damage similar to a Heavy bolter.

Fixed that for ya.

yeah i've checked out that tiger shark thing peregrine was going on about (heaps of new stuff since i played last) and yeah some of the tau stuff now looks cool. If i wanted to play the underdog i would play eldar, i still cannot believe how negligent GW are with them. even looking through all the new stuff that all the races have since 3rd, eldar still chug along with the worst tanks, terrible infantry (apart from aspect warriors which are so badass is beggars belief) and no artillery to speak of (that i can see yet). I haven't got their new codex, but i'm guessing they have amazing psychic powers that make up for this? back in the day one of our group played eldar and never won a single game. said he liked the underdog though, so there ya go.

@pax_imperialis
Of all the non-imperial races, I think Orks and Eldar get the most acknowledgement from GW... That doesn't necessarily mean Eldar are treated well though.

Right now, Eldar and Tau are the furthest behind. I really don't know how Eldar are faring in-game overall though. I think the challenge of their gameplay is one of the appeals though.
That was why I played DE. I took an army that was notorious for sucking, (before the new 'dex) and turned it into something vicious. It was a rewarding thing. I had to learn to think two steps ahead of my opponent. An ability that's been invaluable for Tau play style.
I imagine Eldar require the same deliberation. Reacting to what your opponent is GOING to do, rather than what they've already done.

We know that Tau and Eldar are currently being updated and will each get a new codex this year. Exciting times.

Personally, I love the look of the Tau XV9 Hazard Suits. I just hope they are in the new Codex...

pax_imperialis wrote:
historically, steel was made using a prayer of a given length during smelting. at the time they thought it was the prayer, but it turned out the guy who invented the prayer wanted an easy way to remember how long you needed to heat it for. i kinda figure thats what the imperium's views are like. they relgicize (?) their tech so illiterate, superstitious workers in wooden huts on deathworlds can still make it reliably

This is exactly how it is.

The Imperium knows enough to mass produce some of its technology by using a process heavily dependent on religious rituals and mindless repetition. They can recite the proper prayer and it makes their steel work without ever having to understand why.

The Imperium doesn't understand its technology. If you want to improve your steel you need to understand WHY you wait that long so that you can analyze different wait lengths/methods/etc.

And that's the key difference with the Tau. They don't just know how to read and follow the instruction manual, they understand how things work and can improve them based on experience and research. The Imperium will never advance in any meaningful way, while the Tau have already progressed well beyond all Imperial technology that isn't just priceless artifacts and will only continue to grow.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I was being sarcastic. I had a longer bit about seeker missiles secretly being large blasts that gain sD on a markerlight to hit of 4+, but decided it was too over-the-top.

Sigh.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

In the tabletop game seeker missiles are just hunter-killer missiles with laser targeting for game balance reasons (you don't want entire armies dying on turn 1 to a seeker missile barrage).

In the fluff seeker missiles are somewhere between an anti-tank missile (one-shot a Leman Russ) and cruise missiles (one-shot a building) in size and damage. Simple concrete bunkers like on Vraks would have no chance, not because seeker missiles are secretly titan-level weapons, but because they're precision weapons. It doesn't take much to destroy defenses like Vraks had, you just have to be able to HIT the target (something that artillery firing from 15 miles away isn't very good at). And there is no disagreement that seeker missiles are accurate.

(Of course the same is true of other weapons as well. A Vulture gunship armed with anti-tank missiles would do the same thing to a Leman Russ even though it can't for balance reasons in the tabletop game.)

It was pretty much directly related to peregrine's insistence that the Tau would have won Vraks instantly because seeker missiles.

No, the Tau would have won Vraks because they weren't idiots. Anyone who isn't an idiot would have won Vraks instantly. You only get a long war out of Vraks if you just want to see how many guardsmen you can lose.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The citadel on Vraks had three defensive lines outside its curtain wall, representing thousands of years of construction to produce as impenetrable barrier as possible, with a myriad of hardened anti-orbital defenses, artillery everywhere, and enough ammo to keep up a constant heavy barrage for decades. And it withstood a force far greater than the Tau could muster for decades before cracking.

It withstood a far greater force because FW wanted their "WWI in space" book and had the IG be complete idiots incapable of any strategy beyond "send giant waves of infantry across an open field covered by enemy machine gun emplacements". If FW had remembered that they also sell Imperial Navy models the "war" would have taken less than half a book, most of it Aeronautica Imperialis scenarios.

@peregrine

after bringing myself up to speed on the tau, i see that GW have given them some cool units and back story and incorporated them fully into the universe, so that's cool. I have more respect for Tau players now that i see how they stack up against current armies. i suppose it is nice to have another "grey" force like eldar that could potentially ally with imperial players if the circumstances were dire enough, and it's nice to see another practical culture in the fluff (as opposed to the ones founded solely around bloodshed). I notice they have a few more races like the vespid which makes them seem a bit more like the covenant in halo which is cool. speaking of other races, can anyone tell me why the inquisition now takes orangutans into battle with them? i don't get it. what's wrong with servitors? surely orangutans would be extinct by the 41st millenium. seems a random animal to include :s

 Peregrine wrote:
This is exactly how it is.

The Imperium knows enough to mass produce some of its technology by using a process heavily dependent on religious rituals and mindless repetition. They can recite the proper prayer and it makes their steel work without ever having to understand why.

The Imperium doesn't understand its technology. If you want to improve your steel you need to understand WHY you wait that long so that you can analyze different wait lengths/methods/etc.

And that's the key difference with the Tau. They don't just know how to read and follow the instruction manual, they understand how things work and can improve them based on experience and research. The Imperium will never advance in any meaningful way, while the Tau have already progressed well beyond all Imperial technology that isn't just priceless artifacts and will only continue to grow.

You very much do not understand what the AdMech actually is. Routine maintainence and troubleshooting is ritualized, and likely the lower levels of production (think of how sweatshops/assembly lines function - unskilled labor accomplishing sophisticated tasks through basic repetition), but full-blown tech-priests very much do understand the technology they work with, with broader and more detailed technical knowledge the farther up the ladder you go.

Sigh.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

In the tabletop game seeker missiles are just hunter-killer missiles with laser targeting for game balance reasons (you don't want entire armies dying on turn 1 to a seeker missile barrage).

In the fluff seeker missiles are somewhere between an anti-tank missile (one-shot a Leman Russ) and cruise missiles (one-shot a building) in size and damage. Simple concrete bunkers like on Vraks would have no chance, not because seeker missiles are secretly titan-level weapons, but because they're precision weapons. It doesn't take much to destroy defenses like Vraks had, you just have to be able to HIT the target (something that artillery firing from 15 miles away isn't very good at). And there is no disagreement that seeker missiles are accurate.

I was going to say that only the Taros Campaign describes them like that, but then I checked and found that even it doesn't. All it mentions are salvoes knocking out singular leman russes or chimeras, though it does conveniently ignore the pitiful range of markerlights and how extremely dead the ones doing the marking would be the second they tried calling in a strike.

(Of course the same is true of other weapons as well. A Vulture gunship armed with anti-tank missiles would do the same thing to a Leman Russ even though it can't for balance reasons in the tabletop game.)

There's absolutely no indication that antitank missiles are tones down for balance reasons, or that armor isn't actually as tough as it is on the table (and honestly, the fluff treats it as quite a bit tougher, especially concerning the ridiculous 6th ed rules that have leman russes die on three glances). Seeker missiles, however, are quite noticeably limited, considering the dedicated seeker platform only carries six shots, meaning it gets one worthwhile salvo and has to run off to reload. Which does go a long way to explaining why despite the Imperium's ridiculous and uncharacteristically diffuse disposition the Tau's guerilla warfare didn't really do all that much damage: any given cadre could only harass one ridiculously small band of guard before having to run home to reload and refuel. Which goes to show that even in their own pointlessly contrived story the Tau have an absolutely rubbish fighting force.

And "game balance" isn't a very good excuse when things like vendettas can knock out russes in one salvo, and can deliver as much more or less indefinitely.

No, the Tau would have won Vraks because they weren't idiots. Anyone who isn't an idiot would have won Vraks instantly. You only get a long war out of Vraks if you just want to see how many guardsmen you can lose.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The citadel on Vraks had three defensive lines outside its curtain wall, representing thousands of years of construction to produce as impenetrable barrier as possible, with a myriad of hardened anti-orbital defenses, artillery everywhere, and enough ammo to keep up a constant heavy barrage for decades. And it withstood a force far greater than the Tau could muster for decades before cracking.

It withstood a far greater force because FW wanted their "WWI in space" book and had the IG be complete idiots incapable of any strategy beyond "send giant waves of infantry across an open field covered by enemy machine gun emplacements". If FW had remembered that they also sell Imperial Navy models the "war" would have taken less than half a book, most of it Aeronautica Imperialis scenarios.

Vraks was rather silly, and probably would have been over much faster if the titans actually contributed to the pushes, instead of just wandering around the backfield to no real end, but it's not like the Imperium didn't use its air power and armor assets: the defensive lines were specifically designed to resist a combined arms attack. It should be pointed out again that they resisted a force more than fifteen times (minimum estimate) what the Damocles Gulf Crusade contained for several decades.

And in fact, looking at the Siege of Vraks again, it specifically mentions the Imperial commanders considering exactly what you're suggesting the Tau would use, only to determine it would take around five hundred years to wear down the defenses enough to take the citadel.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I was going to say that only the Taros Campaign describes them like that, but then I checked and found that even it doesn't. All it mentions are salvoes knocking out singular leman russes or chimeras, though it does conveniently ignore the pitiful range of markerlights and how extremely dead the ones doing the marking would be the second they tried calling in a strike.

Sir P I'm not going to get involved with the other points you raised, because they are of no interest to me, nor is Peregrines. However I do have issue with the above. Can you stick with either one source, games rules or two, fluff. As you have used both here.

You have used the 'fictional' LR and compared it to 'games rules' markerlights. The two will never match up. In the thread on Lasguns some are arguing that, as lasers, they should have no range limit, yet in the game they have 24" range. And, I feel, you are guilty of the same here. You feel that, as markerlights have a 36" range (games rules), they have a pitiful range in 'fictional' life (fluff). You say that it takes salvoes of missiles to kill one tank, when in game it only takes one.

You are comparing apples to oranges here, could you please choose one and compare fluff to fluff or games rules to games rules, but please stop comparing fluff to games rules.

Thank you

Andrew

Actually, Lasguns should have limited range in an atmosphere, beam diffusion and so on...

Wake me up when anyone starts posting on topic again

maybe people dont like worshipping a corpse half the galaxy away.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
You very much do not understand what the AdMech actually is. Routine maintainence and troubleshooting is ritualized, and likely the lower levels of production (think of how sweatshops/assembly lines function - unskilled labor accomplishing sophisticated tasks through basic repetition), but full-blown tech-priests very much do understand the technology they work with, with broader and more detailed technical knowledge the farther up the ladder you go.

Fluff disagrees with you. It is very clear that the admech don't have a clue what they're doing, which is why they have religious devotion to the sacred "approved" designs, over and over again things like plasma are described as "poorly understood lost technology", obscene amounts of resources are spent on even the slightest chance of recovering priceless STC data, etc. Other than a very limited amount of basic things like bolting different guns onto a tank the admech has no real understanding of what they're doing and is utterly dependent on having complete designs made by real engineers and scientists.

though it does conveniently ignore the pitiful range of markerlights and how extremely dead the ones doing the marking would be the second they tried calling in a strike.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

Markerlights have limited range in game, just like the maximum range in-game for a Leman Russ is absurdly short. These are purely game balance factors and have nothing to do with real ranges. Markerlights, like any laser targeting system, would have ranges measured in miles, and can be carried by stealth units that would be extremely difficult to attack at such long range.

Sigh.There's absolutely no indication that antitank missiles are tones down for balance reasons, or that armor isn't actually as tough as it is on the table (and honestly, the fluff treats it as quite a bit tougher, especially concerning the ridiculous 6th ed rules that have leman russes die on three glances).

Sorry, but 3 HP Leman Russes is generous. A single penetrating hit from a proper anti-tank weapon should almost always kill or cripple a tank (it will at least kill the crew even if the tank itself can be salvaged) and glancing hits should quickly reduce it to little more than an armored bunker for the crew to hide in until help arrives.

(And let's not forget the fluff of a single railgun shot going in one side of a Leman Russ and out the other, painting the remains of the crew across the landscape in the process.)

Seeker missiles, however, are quite noticeably limited, considering the dedicated seeker platform only carries six shots, meaning it gets one worthwhile salvo and has to run off to reload. Which does go a long way to explaining why despite the Imperium's ridiculous and uncharacteristically diffuse disposition the Tau's guerilla warfare didn't really do all that much damage: any given cadre could only harass one ridiculously small band of guard before having to run home to reload and refuel. Which goes to show that even in their own pointlessly contrived story the Tau have an absolutely rubbish fighting force.

So what you're saying is that real-world rocket artillery is worthless because all it gets is one shot before it has to retreat and reload?

(Hint: it is very effective.)

And "game balance" isn't a very good excuse when things like vendettas can knock out russes in one salvo, and can deliver as much more or less indefinitely.

CAN knock out A tank. These two things are very important. A fluff-accurate Vulture gunship would pop out from behind cover, one-shot six different vehicles with six missiles, and duck back out of sight before the fire-and-forget missiles have even hit their targets. I think it should be pretty obvious why GW doesn't let this happen in the tabletop game.

but it's not like the Imperium didn't use its air power and armor assets: the defensive lines were specifically designed to resist a combined arms attack.

They didn't. The Imperial Navy is nonexistent until fairly late in the series, and even then it's only used in a strategic (and fairly ineffective) role without even the slightest mention of tactical air support. And the tanks are hardly any better, the fluff even explicitly states that Krieg commanders use them stupidly and just throw wave after wave of them at a target without any effort to maximize their effectiveness.

It should be pointed out again that they resisted a force more than fifteen times (minimum estimate) what the Damocles Gulf Crusade contained for several decades.

Total numbers are irrelevant if you use them stupidly. The "fifteen times more" troops were just spent soaking up machine gun bullets for no gain for years at a time.

 AndrewC wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I was going to say that only the Taros Campaign describes them like that, but then I checked and found that even it doesn't. All it mentions are salvoes knocking out singular leman russes or chimeras, though it does conveniently ignore the pitiful range of markerlights and how extremely dead the ones doing the marking would be the second they tried calling in a strike.

Sir P I'm not going to get involved with the other points you raised, because they are of no interest to me, nor is Peregrines. However I do have issue with the above. Can you stick with either one source, games rules or two, fluff. As you have used both here.

You have used the 'fictional' LR and compared it to 'games rules' markerlights. The two will never match up. In the thread on Lasguns some are arguing that, as lasers, they should have no range limit, yet in the game they have 24" range. And, I feel, you are guilty of the same here. You feel that, as markerlights have a 36" range (games rules), they have a pitiful range in 'fictional' life (fluff). You say that it takes salvoes of missiles to kill one tank, when in game it only takes one.

You are comparing apples to oranges here, could you please choose one and compare fluff to fluff or games rules to games rules, but please stop comparing fluff to games rules.

Thank you

Andrew

You're reading that wrong, but I suppose it was a bit vague.

What I'm arguing against is the idea that seeker/hunter-killer/krak missiles are underpowered in the game versus the fluff. I pointed out that the Taros Campaign doesn't have seekers one-shotting russes (a misconception that I fear ultimately comes back to my earlier indictments of it). Ruleswise, on the otherhand, it's possible but ridiculously unlikely, having less than a 3% chance of occurring.

As far as markerlights go, we can assume that all ranges in the tabletop are greatly reduced for the sake of melee troops and because of the limited space available in which a game takes place, but if we make this assumption we must apply that to all ranges equally, not simply suggest that markerlights in particular are nerfed and so should outrange weapons with twice their given range. If, fluffwise, markerlights have a range greater than the ~180' their in game range would equate to, one must further assume that leman russ battlecannons (game range ~360') then have a proportionately greater range as well.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
What I'm arguing against is the idea that seeker/hunter-killer/krak missiles are underpowered in the game versus the fluff. I pointed out that the Taros Campaign doesn't have seekers one-shotting russes (a misconception that I fear ultimately comes back to my earlier indictments of it). Ruleswise, on the otherhand, it's possible but ridiculously unlikely, having less than a 3% chance of occurring.

It doesn't say it explicitly (just "missiles were fired, tanks were lost"), but consider what happens with real anti-tank missiles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHPVDRXKGfc

(Note that this is a generous assumption since a seeker missile is actually a fairly large weapon, and probably more like real-world cruise missiles than relatively small anti-tank missiles.)

As far as markerlights go, we can assume that all ranges in the tabletop are greatly reduced for the sake of melee troops and because of the limited space available in which a game takes place, but if we make this assumption we must apply that to all ranges equally, not simply suggest that markerlights in particular are nerfed and so should outrange weapons with twice their given range.

Nonsense. Of course we don't apply the same scale factor to all ranges. We don't assume that a sniper rifle (36") has a mere three times the effective range of a pistol (12") and barely four times longer range than a thrown grenade (8").

If, fluffwise, markerlights have a range greater than the ~180' their in game range would equate to, one must further assume that leman russ battlecannons (game range ~360') then have a proportionately greater range as well.

FLUFF =/= MECHANICS.

Markerlights have half the range of battlecannons because that's how GW thought it should be for game balance purposes: markerlights have the standard "medium" range (probably so that pathfinders have to act as scouts and take a forward position, not just hide safely in the back), battlecannons have the standard "full table" range. There is no reason to assume that this game balance choice magically allows a fairly crude projectile weapon to have greater effective range than a laser pointer.

 Peregrine wrote:
Fluff disagrees with you. It is very clear that the admech don't have a clue what they're doing, which is why they have religious devotion to the sacred "approved" designs, over and over again things like plasma are described as "poorly understood lost technology", obscene amounts of resources are spent on even the slightest chance of recovering priceless STC data, etc. Other than a very limited amount of basic things like bolting different guns onto a tank the admech has no real understanding of what they're doing and is utterly dependent on having complete designs made by real engineers and scientists.

Crude Imperial flavor taglines disagree. The fluff proper is quite a different matter. Per the fluff, the AdMech actually "gasp" does research and development, improving on STCs or creating altogether new desings, to say nothing of the weired and more advanced tech that's not meant for widespread production.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

Markerlights have limited range in game, just like the maximum range in-game for a Leman Russ is absurdly short. These are purely game balance factors and have nothing to do with real ranges. Markerlights, like any laser targeting system, would have ranges measured in miles, and can be carried by stealth units that would be extremely difficult to attack at such long range.

Right, that's why they have half the range of a cannon.

CAN knock out A tank. These two things are very important. A fluff-accurate Vulture gunship would pop out from behind cover, one-shot six different vehicles with six missiles, and duck back out of sight before the fire-and-forget missiles have even hit their targets. I think it should be pretty obvious why GW doesn't let this happen in the tabletop game.

To both this and the above: you can't just cherry pick and say that certain weapons should be disproportionately more powerful than weapons given identical or higher stats. Markerlights clearly have half the range of a battlecannon or railgun. Anti-tank missiles aren't magical "one-shot the heaviest armor in existence because MAGIC" weapons (though they can do a number on lighter armor).

Sorry, but 3 HP Leman Russes is generous. A single penetrating hit from a proper anti-tank weapon should almost always kill or cripple a tank (it will at least kill the crew even if the tank itself can be salvaged) and glancing hits should quickly reduce it to little more than an armored bunker for the crew to hide in until help arrives.

(And let's not forget the fluff of a single railgun shot going in one side of a Leman Russ and out the other, painting the remains of the crew across the landscape in the process.)

A penetrating hit can up and destroy a vehicle on the first go, just like it always could, and every single piece of heavy armor in the game gets four hull points, but the russ is left on par with light armor assets.

So what you're saying is that real-world rocket artillery is worthless because all it gets is one shot before it has to retreat and reload?

(Hint: it is very effective.)

Real world rocket artillery being cruise missiles (or other sizeable missiles) or anti-cruise missile systems, not dedicated tanks whose entire contribution to the fight is six javelin missiles.

They didn't. The Imperial Navy is nonexistent until fairly late in the series, and even then it's only used in a strategic (and fairly ineffective) role without even the slightest mention of tactical air support. And the tanks are hardly any better, the fluff even explicitly states that Krieg commanders use them stupidly and just throw wave after wave of them at a target without any effort to maximize their effectiveness.

What exactly is air support supposed to accomplish against a solid wall of firepower encompassing counters to everything you can throw at it? And exactly how is heavy armor supposed to be used against a stationary and nearly impenetrable defensive line? In real life, tanks just rolled over all the nice anti-infantry countermeasures in no-man's-land, bringing firepower against anti-infantry positions, breaking the enemy line (and then breaking down because the first generation tanks were garbage like that), but what can they do against a position properly prepared to repel armor?

Stationary fortifications aren't obsolete, they're just too expensive and inefficient to be worth building on a large scale. Vraks had them on such a large scale that having them constantly worn down or destroyed by artillery, or stormed by infantry, wasn't a meaningful loss, since there was always another heavy emplacement another hundred yards back.

Total numbers are irrelevant if you use them stupidly. The "fifteen times more" troops were just spent soaking up machine gun bullets for no gain for years at a time.

The point being that at any given point along that line, there was a greater concentration of force than the Tau could ever field. Pressing in on all sides, all the time. The Tau simply couldn't deal with a conflict like Vraks, let alone a proper fortress world instead of an armory. Think the citadel on Vraks, but all over the planet (but with smaller ammo dumps, presumably).

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Crude Imperial flavor taglines disagree. The fluff proper is quite a different matter. Per the fluff, the AdMech actually "gasp" does research and development, improving on STCs or creating altogether new desings, to say nothing of the weired and more advanced tech that's not meant for widespread production.

Sorry, but no. It is established beyond any doubt that:

1) The admech does NOT understand key technologies (for example, plasma weapons) properly and is limited to reproducing them from existing blueprints. This is explicitly stated in the fluff.

and

2) The admech DESPERATELY wants to get STC data, alien artifacts, etc. Again, this scavenging (which only makes sense as a substitute for actual understanding and engineering) is explicitly part of the fluff.

The only "research" they do is things like spending several centuries verifying that yes, the machine god will permit you to replace a Predator's AC turret with a standard LC. IOW, different ways of assembling existing components, not the development of entirely new ones.

Right, that's why they have half the range of a cannon.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

To both this and the above: you can't just cherry pick and say that certain weapons should be disproportionately more powerful than weapons given identical or higher stats. Markerlights clearly have half the range of a battlecannon or railgun. Anti-tank missiles aren't magical "one-shot the heaviest armor in existence because MAGIC" weapons (though they can do a number on lighter armor).

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

A penetrating hit can up and destroy a vehicle on the first go, just like it always could, and every single piece of heavy armor in the game gets four hull points, but the russ is left on par with light armor assets.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

Real world rocket artillery being cruise missiles (or other sizeable missiles) or anti-cruise missile systems, not dedicated tanks whose entire contribution to the fight is six javelin missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M270_Multiple_Launch_Rocket_System

Also, I've already stated that seeker missiles are significantly larger than modern javelins. The fact that they have the same stats as a javelin-like missile launcher in the game is game mechanics, not fluff.

What exactly is air support supposed to accomplish against a solid wall of firepower encompassing counters to everything you can throw at it?

I don't know, maybe try bombing key bunkers rather than just sending millions of infantry into machine gun fire until the machine guns run out of ammunition?

Or, here's an idea: nuclear weapons. Use Marauder bombers to deliver strategic nukes and bomb the entire outer defense line into a radioactive wasteland. Hell, you even have DKoK in the book, fighting in a radioactive wasteland would be just like home.

And exactly how is heavy armor supposed to be used against a stationary and nearly impenetrable defensive line? In real life, tanks just rolled over all the nice anti-infantry countermeasures in no-man's-land, bringing firepower against anti-infantry positions, breaking the enemy line (and then breaking down because the first generation tanks were garbage like that), but what can they do against a position properly prepared to repel armor?

One small problem with your question: the defense line wasn't nearly impenetrable. It was only "impenetrable" if your primary method of attack is sending a horde of guardsman across an open field into minefields, barbed wire, prepared machine gun and mortar positions, etc.

Stationary fortifications aren't obsolete, they're just too expensive and inefficient to be worth building on a large scale.

IRL yes, they are. You will never see Vraks-style fortifications because precision guided weapons make a complete joke of them.

Vraks had them on such a large scale that having them constantly worn down or destroyed by artillery, or stormed by infantry, wasn't a meaningful loss, since there was always another heavy emplacement another hundred yards back.

Which is completely false. The book explicitly states that the fortifications exist in narrow rings, and that once the outer line is breached there is nothing but clear ground between it and the inner ring.

The point being that at any given point along that line, there was a greater concentration of force than the Tau could ever field.

Except that it was used so stupidly that it doesn't count. You don't get credit for overwhelming force because you brought a bunch of guardsmen to suicide into machine gun fire. A single stealth suit (with seeker missile support far behind the lines) would have been worth more than thousands of Krieg idiots.

The Tau simply couldn't deal with a conflict like Vraks, let alone a proper fortress world instead of an armory.

Sure they could, simply because they aren't complete idiots doing the dumbest things possible just to allow the "WWI in space" theme FW wanted. ANY sensible army, including other IG forces, could have won Vraks in half a book.

 Peregrine wrote:

It doesn't say it explicitly (just "missiles were fired, tanks were lost"), but consider what happens with real anti-tank missiles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHPVDRXKGfc

"Missiles were fired, a tank was wrecked."

What do you think a javelin would do to an abrams, or any other modern main battle tank? You're making a pretty big leap when you consider the heaviest armor anything carries to be pitiful against general anti-armor weapons.

(Note that this is a generous assumption since a seeker missile is actually a fairly large weapon, and probably more like real-world cruise missiles than relatively small anti-tank missiles.)

And yet it effects only a single point and has stats comparable to the smaller missiles sported by other species. So really, it's just another example of Tau using overly bulky systems to accomplish the same task.

FLUFF =/= MECHANICS.

Markerlights have half the range of battlecannons because that's how GW thought it should be for game balance purposes: markerlights have the standard "medium" range (probably so that pathfinders have to act as scouts and take a forward position, not just hide safely in the back), battlecannons have the standard "full table" range. There is no reason to assume that this game balance choice magically allows a fairly crude projectile weapon to have greater effective range than a laser pointer.

Or perhaps they just have garbage resolution in their sensors; the laser "could" reach a further target, but the sensors in the markerlight wouldn't be able to make sense of it/detect it at all.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
What do you think a javelin would do to an abrams, or any other modern main battle tank?

What do YOU think?

You're making a pretty big leap when you consider the heaviest armor anything carries to be pitiful against general anti-armor weapons.

No, I'm simply stating how things are in reality. Missiles beat armor, why do you think there's so much work being done on active defenses to shoot them down instead of just bolting more armor onto a tank?

And the simple truth is that the only real counter-argument you have is the game mechanics which make everything durable so that games last long enough to be fun.

And yet it effects only a single point and has stats comparable to the smaller missiles sported by other species. So really, it's just another example of Tau using overly bulky systems to accomplish the same task.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

(And are you also going to claim that Imperial krak missiles have no blast effect and can only ever kill a single person, even if they're standing right next to the victim?)

Or perhaps they just have garbage resolution in their sensors; the laser "could" reach a further target, but the sensors in the markerlight wouldn't be able to make sense of it/detect it at all.

Sorry, but that's just nonsense. Lasers don't work that way.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Crude Imperial flavor taglines disagree. The fluff proper is quite a different matter. Per the fluff, the AdMech actually "gasp" does research and development, improving on STCs or creating altogether new desings, to say nothing of the weired and more advanced tech that's not meant for widespread production.

Sorry, but no. It is established beyond any doubt that:

1) The admech does NOT understand key technologies (for example, plasma weapons) properly and is limited to reproducing them from existing blueprints. This is explicitly stated in the fluff.

and

2) The admech DESPERATELY wants to get STC data, alien artifacts, etc. Again, this scavenging (which only makes sense as a substitute for actual understanding and engineering) is explicitly part of the fluff.

The only "research" they do is things like spending several centuries verifying that yes, the machine god will permit you to replace a Predator's AC turret with a standard LC. IOW, different ways of assembling existing components, not the development of entirely new ones.

For the simplest and most obvious: the Macharius tank. Designed by a tech-priest to serve as a cheaper and more widespread baneblade, vetted after several centuries of testing and scrutiny. Beyond that, try reading anything at all about the AdMech? We have the tech-priest in Eisenhorn, tech-priests in Dark Heresy, a lot of the Dark Heresy fluff, tech-priests in the Dark Heresy tie-ins, tech-priests in the Ciaphas Cain series, and even a mention in those terrible Grey Knights books about research facilities.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.
FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.
FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

Like that's a reasoned argument against comparisons within the rules being used as a metric for how things compare.

I don't know, maybe try bombing key bunkers rather than just sending millions of infantry into machine gun fire until the machine guns run out of ammunition?

Or, here's an idea: nuclear weapons. Use Marauder bombers to deliver strategic nukes and bomb the entire outer defense line into a radioactive wasteland. Hell, you even have DKoK in the book, fighting in a radioactive wasteland would be just like home.

The Imperium doesn't have or use nuclear weapons. For some reason. Maybe all the relevant metals were depleted, or are more valuable elsewhere or something. Kreig was an anomaly, facilitated by an old stockpile of thermonuclear missiles.

One small problem with your question: the defense line wasn't nearly impenetrable. It was only "impenetrable" if your primary method of attack is sending a horde of guardsman across an open field into minefields, barbed wire, prepared machine gun and mortar positions, etc.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
or the simplest and most obvious: the Macharius tank. Designed by a tech-priest to serve as a cheaper and more widespread baneblade, vetted after several centuries of testing and scrutiny. Beyond that, try reading anything at all about the AdMech?

It wasn't designed. It was recovered from existing blueprints.

Like that's a reasoned argument against comparisons within the rules being used as a metric for how things compare.

Of course it is. You can't just look at game mechanics in a game which has obvious balance decisions, approximations, limits of the D6 system, etc. 40k is not intended to be a realistic simulation therefore arguing things like "markerlights have horrible range" is silly.

The Imperium doesn't have or use nuclear weapons. For some reason. Maybe all the relevant metals were depleted, or are more valuable elsewhere or something. Kreig was an anomaly, facilitated by an old stockpile of thermonuclear missiles.

Or they just call them something else (whatever battleship-scale torpedo warheads are called).

It repelled armored pushes. Therefore it was designed to repel armored pushes. It was more like WWII era fortifications brought onto a scale that makes WWI look like a chainlink fence.

It repelled armored pushes made by idiots. Seriously, this isn't up for debate, even the Vraks fluff explicitly states that Krieg commanders use their tanks incompetently.

Each line wasn't a trench, it was a series of trenches and bunkers that were clearly not just a single thin line.

The book disagrees with you. There were multiple layers in the thin ring, but the fortifications formed distinct rings and once a ring was breached the siege troops quickly advanced through open ground until they reached the next ring.

Because markerlights and seeker missiles are magical magic weapons of magic, and stealthsuits are so much sneakier than assassinorum operatives or guard with chameoline cloaks, probably because magic.

I didn't say that. I said they're worth more than a thousand idiot guardsmen whose only apparently purpose is to run into machine gun fire and die. Please don't just make up straw man arguments.

Except they can't even decisively win against a not-significantly-larger force that's so diffuse as to allow their moderate mobility advantage to be a meaningful factor, having to wait until they run out of water and go home in order to suckerpunch the retreating troops.

Yeah, how horrible that the Tau had to resort to using a "run them out of supplies" strategy that they developed before the Imperial attack even started.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
What do you think a javelin would do to an abrams, or any other modern main battle tank?

What do YOU think?

Are you under the impression a man-portable shaped charge could always punch through armor that's four feet thick at its thickest point? I'm sure there are places it could hit where it would do so, but it doesn't do much beyond just slam into the target from above. Just like smaller rpgs can technically kill abrams, if they get extremely lucky with where they hit (and since those are, at best, comparable to krak grenades, that would mean the leman russ has tougher armor than an abrams)

No, I'm simply stating how things are in reality. Missiles beat armor, why do you think there's so much work being done on active defenses to shoot them down instead of just bolting more armor onto a tank?

And the simple truth is that the only real counter-argument you have is the game mechanics which make everything durable so that games last long enough to be fun.
...
FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

(And are you also going to claim that Imperial krak missiles have no blast effect and can only ever kill a single person, even if they're standing right next to the victim?)

According to all available rules, they don't. Both 40k and Dark Heresy and its related RPGs have them affecting a single points. I can't recall any fluff sources attributing collateral damage to any of them either. So apparently yes, that's how things designed to punch through armor work in this setting (presumably they're sort of a shaped-charge++, where all the force gets directed into a single point, which further demonstrates how much better armor technology is in the setting).

Sorry, but that's just nonsense. Lasers don't work that way.

But whatever's looking at the laser to draw conclusions from it clearly does.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Are you under the impression a man-portable shaped charge could always punch through armor that's four feet thick at its thickest point?

This is a joke, right? Four feet of armor is three times the thickness of the belt armor on a battleship.

According to all available rules, they don't.

FLUFF =/= GAME MECHANICS.

But whatever's looking at the laser to draw conclusions from it clearly does.

Err, what? That makes no sense, even if we use your assumption that game mechanics are valid evidence. Maximum range to fire the markerlight is 36". The range for a sensor to see the markerlight is UNLIMITED. As long as your markerlight carrier is within 36" you can call in a seeker missile from another game store on the other side of the country.