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6th Necron fluff never happened. Every true Necron player knows that.

Imotekh, Zandrekh etc. are higher Necron lords / enslavers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Didn't that movie suck ass?

Yep. It shows that when they are portrayed badly, either as normal humans in power armor and not posthuman genetically engineered troopers, things tend to suck.

If I had to pick a preferred version of the Space Marines, I would go with Relic's interpretation of them: Beyond normal humanity, and operating outside of normal customs, but still clinging to what humanity they have left in order to justify their actions they take in defense of the Imperium. Titus's interactions with Miranda and the Imperial Guardsmen on Graia are a great example of what I mean. It's somewhat awkward for the Marines to interact with these people who look up to them like they are gods amongst men. But despite being on a different plane of existence, Titus at least tries to understand and relate with the regular folk.

Likewise with Thaddeus. He clings to what humanity he has left and uses that as his motivation to fight. He fights for what he gave up so that others wouldn't have to. He isn't beyond compassion, it's his driving force of character.

Essentially, I'd like to see Space Marines portrayed in the same sense as Superman is. He is all but unstoppable, so the drama doesn't come from how he will beat the next bad guy, but about him trying to find his place and meaning in the universe, and how he interacts with those he chooses to defend.

To be fair, there are some rather blatant failures in depicting Superman, too.

At Earth's End being the most infamous one.... but I can probably think of worse ones...

I think Astartes offer a lot of scope for interesting characters. There's lots of potential there for illustrating the differences between them and regular humans, and always the potential for crises of conscience and 'how the mighty have fallen' story arcs. There's a lot of room to play and a lot of room for exploration.

The problem is, GW's stable of authors only has one or two really talented authors, and making interesting and complex characters is hard. It's much easier to write boring bolter porn, so for the most part that's what we get. That's not an inherent failing of Marines as characters, imo, so much as a failing of mediocre authors.

QFT.

Part of the problem is also that a whole lot of people seem to like it that way, though I'm not sure if this is a generational thing or if this disparity in personal preferences has always been this large. It kinda feels as if the "public image" of the Space Marines has evolved over time, getting badder, bigger, ever more epic, with a hundred authors all trying to one-up each other and the fans yelling "more! more!".
Hell, even Jes Goodwin joked about the novels' portrayal in the GW design podcast.

I think ADB once mentioned in an interview that Black Library authors also have some odd restrictions put on their works with regards to what is and isn't acceptable.

He mentioned not being able to go into certain subjects such as sexuality (not just sex, but in the broader sense). It's easier to crank out a BATTLES OF THE SPACE MARINES load of crap than it would be to delve into the mind of a Space Marine undergoing a crisis of faith.

There always needs to be a war, and it always takes precedence to character development. Now you might say "of course there must always be war, in 40K there is only war!"

And that is true. But that doesn't mean that there isn't room for something else, or that every chapter is mandated to have an action scene somewhere.

Maybe an inspired 40k story following the story of the Heart of Darkness but darker.... and worse.... Would make an interesting story line.

Tau have a good chance at surviving, Nids aren't as O.P. in fluff terms, The starchild theory is true.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
He mentioned not being able to go into certain subjects such as sexuality (not just sex, but in the broader sense).

That's a blatant fething lie.

Anyone who has read a Graham McNeill book practically chokes on the homoeroticism. Dan Abnett inserts weird and creepy sexuality in Legion, with psyker Imperial Army whores aplenty. ADB himself had some... Weird bits present in The Emperor's Gift. I am pretty sure he has a desperate desire to write Space Marine on human female porn.

Yeah, I'm not sure where you get that "can't post sexuality" bit.

They aren't gonna let you write outright porno in their name (... probably...), but from reading the Cain series, it's obvious that authors can include it.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure where you get that "can't post sexuality" bit.

They aren't gonna let you write outright porno in their name (... probably...), but from reading the Cain series, it's obvious that authors can include it.

Well I guess you can be graphic about it, but in general Game of Thrones-graphic is a poor idea as most people has a burning wish to retain whatever they last have eaten. I find it better to superficially describe rather than go into squicky details myself, but each to themselves.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I am pretty sure he has a desperate desire to write Space Marine on human female porn.

... what makes you say that?

My retcon is that the Fire Hawks chapter (previously one of the most devoted to the idea that the emperor is actually a divine being) were wiping out a logician hideout and stumbled upon irrefutable proof of the emperor preaching the imperial truth. So they switched there view, reported it to the head of the imperial cult, but before they could spread the word themselves there entire chapter was sent through the warp to render aid and that is when the assasitorum tried to wipe them out before they could spread the word of the imperial truth.

They came back as the legion of the damned but still hide out where nobody can find them, because if they do give there location, the assatorum will try to kill the rest of them.

This also explains there new chapter slogan of "loyal to the emperor, beyond death) Because after discovering the imperial truth, they are now loyal only to the emperor and not to the imperium of man and there imperial cult.

Not all orks are as dim witted and blood thirsty as they appear in fluff.

Etched In Pride wrote:
Not all orks are as dim witted and blood thirsty as they appear in fluff.

I second this! Wish they could have some sense of cunning or tactics about them.

Etched In Pride wrote:
Not all orks are as dim witted and blood thirsty as they appear in fluff.

Yeah, but that's not a retcon, that's just the lore itself.

Some fans, especially haters, exaggerate it.

I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.

A more accurate assessment is that they're street-smart like a trained soldier, but with somewhat different priorities than a modern soldier.

I dunno about that Melissia.... I know a few squaddies, off the job they do seem to have some similar priorities :p

 Melissia wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.

A more accurate assessment is that they're street-smart like a trained soldier, but with somewhat different priorities than a modern soldier.

Too undisciplined for a soldier, and I don't like calling soldiers psychopaths.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I sort of took the Orks for being street-smart like a hooligan not book-smart like an university-professor. I mean being a violent psychopath has nothing to do with your intelligence.

A more accurate assessment is that they're street-smart like a trained soldier, but with somewhat different priorities than a modern soldier.

Too undisciplined for a soldier, and I don't like calling soldiers psychopaths.

I said "different priorities than a modern soldier".

On average, a modern soldier wants to do their duty, pick up their paycheck, and then go home. Maybe serve another stint or three depending on their tastes.

An Ork, on average, doesn't go to war because they're paid to. They go to war for war's sake.

But the thing is, outside of literature where they are depicted as dumb, Orks are described as having an instinctive combat reaction-- diving for cover, reacting to changing tactical situations, etc. This is just the common boy, too, not nobs or warbosses. They have the instincts of a trained soldier, but without any of the social aspects which cause soldiers to be disciplined or good people.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
He mentioned not being able to go into certain subjects such as sexuality (not just sex, but in the broader sense).

That's a blatant fething lie.

Anyone who has read a Graham McNeill book practically chokes on the homoeroticism.

I think Graham Mcneill does a really great job of portraying a relationship between Uriel and Pasanius.
It reminds me of cultures like the Spartans where you loved the dude next to you in the phalanx more than your wife. I am not saying they have a physical relationship but it would be hard to be friends and battle brothers for extremely long periods of time without becoming emotionally invested in each other somehow.


I prefer Mcneills space marines to most of the other authors versions. In the forward for the UM Omnibus he talks a little bit about how he writes them as being super soldiers who still feel everything a human would feel but because of physical and mental conditioning are able to supress there natural urging and feelings. It makes much more sense than a bunch of brain washed muscle heads wondering around shooting whatever they are told. It also makes individual marines falling to chaos make more sense. If they have to constantly make the choice of being the "good guy" they have more humanity than just "i does this because i was told ta uh durrr".

And to me, that violates everything that a Space Marine is.

They are a weapon. Inhuman biologically, inhuman sociologically, inhuman psychologically-- they gave all of that up in the process of becoming a Space Marine. Their reasons for turning to Chaos actually quite frequently stem from the fact that they DON'T have any connection to humanity. "Why the hell am I defending these weaklings?" comes to mind-- after all, it's quite easy for a being like a Space Marine to view itself as better than humanity.

The ones that don't hold this view are the ones that tend to stay quite loyal, to boot-- salamanders and space wolves, for example-- and are the ones that are likewise more beloved by the Imperium as well. In the end, one could argue it varies strongly between chapters and even between individual marines. But even amongst the nicest marines, there's a sort of disconnect between them and humanity, because of what they gave up to become an Astartes.

 Melissia wrote:
And to me, that violates everything that a Space Marine is.

They are a weapon. Inhuman biologically, inhuman sociologically, inhuman psychologically-- they gave all of that up in the process of becoming a Space Marine. Their reasons for turning to Chaos actually quite frequently stem from the fact that they DON'T have any connection to humanity. "Why the hell am I defending these weaklings?" comes to mind-- after all, it's quite easy for a being like a Space Marine to view itself as better than humanity.

The ones that don't hold this view are the ones that tend to stay quite loyal, to boot-- salamanders and space wolves, for example-- and are the ones that are likewise more beloved by the Imperium as well. In the end, one could argue it varies strongly between chapters and even between individual marines. But even amongst the nicest marines, there's a sort of disconnect between them and humanity, because of what they gave up to become an Astartes.

I am not saying that aren't inhuman just that they have to actively work at being superhuman its not just "bam your a space marine now". I also wouldnt say that they are compatable with human society because they aren't. I just like how much more realistic and relatable McNeills space marines are compared to a lot. They may be superhuman but its all based on a human frame. Even though they are super human killing machines they still have a culture and some sort of personality. I like to think that they give up their human life and any ties to other regular humans but not all of their humanity.
I also really like how they are portrayed in the short story "The Last Detail" in the Legends of the Space Marines.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legends_of_the_Space_Marines_(Anthology)

 Galdos wrote:

Grey Knights rarely kill those they know are innocent and do not mind wipe loyal subjects.

I think the only major thing I personally have retconned is something along the lines of this. In all the proper fluff I have read, like Dan Abnett's Gaunts Ghost's series, and in numerous Imperial Armour books, the veteran guardsmen who have fought the ruinous powers and fought against renegades, traitor marines and Daemons go on to fight chaos in later campaigns, and do so successfully because of their experience. They don't just get executed right after the battle by some dull marines from the Inquisistion, because they might have set their eyes on a Daemon or something similar. They might be under scrutiny, yes, and also imprisoned, or sent to battles they cannot survive, but not they are simply not executed because of what they have seen, because they still are valuable assets to the Imperium. I like the way that Compel puts it:

 Compel wrote:
As an Imperial Guard player, I like the idea that Guardsmen tend to be killed off after encountering demons / grey knights. It does help the grim darkness and helps illustrate just exactly the price of a guardsmans life.

However, I'd also like to think they're relatively sensible about it all. For example, only doing it after the war is over and other more pragmatic alternatives tend to be considered. - For example, being seconded by the Inquisition for certain missions where cannon fodder is required. Might as well not waste a new resource on it when you've got a perfectly good one that hasn't gone insane quite yet and may prove still useful. However, you wouldn't want them going off to a normal warzone, against say, orks, and have them interacting with other regiments.... That would be unwise.

I'm writing a narrative battle report right now which really plays this up. The Guard are clueless about demons, however my Guard know of:

the executioners... Though their names were unknown, their deeds of terror were known throughout the lowest ranks of the guard. They were the Bringers of The Warp, silencers of the Convent, and some of the most unreliable soldiers even claim these silver clad destroyers were responsible for the genocide of Armageddon...

I agree on the fact that IG regiments who have fought chaos in all its forms should not be sent to an entirely different theatre of war fighting an entirely different enemy. They should fight chaos for the duration of that campain, and if they are sane enough, maybe be sent to other chaos incursions and fight the same type of enemy there.

Oh, and Codex: GK doesn't exist. They are still just a tool of the Inquisistion, not dull plot-altering super marines.

Exactly, its stupid the idea that the Inquisition and Grey Knights would execute loyal soldiers of the Imperium who have stood up and defeated the forces of Chaos. You should be using these men to help you win battles, not relying on untried soldiers who may break when encountering Chaos.



I also HATE it when books present Space Marines in this "we do this for myself at thats it. feth humanity they deserve to be destroyed for being weak" and that is a loyalist speaking. Its awful and you dont even want to cheer for them.

Thats why I love the way McNeill writes his UMs as the defenders of humanity. You want them to succeed because of how honorable they are.

My personal RetCon would be the brainless splitting of the SM chapters over several theaters. Thousand soldiers, and be they enhanced supersoldiers with elite equipment, are a force small enough considering we talk about whole planets being the battle theaters here. Why divide them up, one company here, one company there, then in one campaign we have two companies of this chapter, one of that, two more of the next... talk about ineffiency! The independent operational unit is the chapter, not the company.

I only have two real retcons to the 40k fluff.

1. The WHFB world is still a planet in the Imperium. Sigmar is also one of the lost primarchs.

2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.

 Coolyo294 wrote:
2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.

Isn't that canon? Not that it really makes any sense, but still.

 Melissia wrote:

 Coolyo294 wrote:
2. The Vostroyan Firstborn only recruit the firstborn sons of Vostroya, not the sons and daughters.

Isn't that canon? Not that it really makes any sense, but still.

There were some bits in FFG's Only War that said it was the firstborn child of every family that got recruited. And then there was the picture of the female Vostroyan medic later in the book.