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So, the new DA codex just killed Deathwing allies by changing Belial's special rule to only apply to a primary detachment. If you take DA as allies you're stuck with the usual garbage tactical squads and no terminators. Thankfully I haven't ordered those pretty FW terminators yet, because this is really annoying.

So, the problem: mech IG is great at killing stuff, but weak at holding objectives now that veterans have to get out of their Chimera bunkers to score. This means that games have to end with the opponent crippled beyond the point where they can kill a squad of T3/no-save infantry, and the veterans have limited ability to secure an objective and hold it against counter-attack. And, to make things worse, they have no ability to assault anything more threatening than a lone fire warrior and expect to win. So if plasma doesn't get the job done in the shooting phase even a single terminator/few marines/etc surviving on an objective are effectively invulnerable and not going anywhere. Deathwing were supposed to fill this role, providing a durable scoring unit with a nasty counter-assault threat and the ability to finish off anything left standing on the objective they're about to take. But, now that Deathwing is no longer an option, what do I do? I have a few things I expect from any potential unit:

1) It must be better than a tactical squad. I'm not paying the tactical tax, and any allies choice that involves tactical squads is not an option.

2) It must help with target saturation. Terminators were ideal because 2+ saves attract lascannons, just like the wall of AV 12. So no basic MEQs, they die too quickly to basic bolters/lasguns/etc without helping with target saturation against heavy weapons.

3) It must be at least decent at shooting. This is above all a shooting army, so no assault units that can't contribute anything until turn 3+.

4) It must be scoring. I have plenty of stuff to kill with, so any allies choice needs to revolve around their troops.

5) Bonus points for providing other useful units (divination psykers, Contemptor Mortis dreads, etc) in addition to the troops.


So, options I'm considering:

1) GK terminators. Kind of like Deathwing, but with psycannons instead of cyclone missiles (sigh). It's the most straightforward replacement and a psyfleman dread isn't a bad bonus, but just seems somehow disappointing.

2) SW terminators, and hope they don't ever errata it away like Deathwing. Lots of options (combi-weapons!) and the beloved cyclone missiles, but 275 points to unlock them as troops is a lot. The other option is taking a rune priest or two (divination!), elite wolf guard, and hybrid terminator/power armor grey hunter squads. That's cheaper and gives awesome psychic powers and defense, but I'm stuck with power armor on most of my models.

3) C:SM biker captain and bikes. Somewhat less durable than terminators (T5 helps a lot), excellent mobility, plasma/melta guns everywhere, and a Contemptor Mortis dread. On the other hand there's no real assault ability, and sadly no divination.

4) Give up on the whole plan and just take Tau allies. Sure they're still fragile, but they're tougher than guardsmen and can babysit a "home" objective while still contributing

It can still be an option, I thought. You just cant have DW as a Troop choice. You would buy a Tac Squad, but they at least can be useful now.

DA Librarian 65 pts level 1 with Divination
5 Tac Marines with lascannon. 90 pts
Deathwing squad of whatever build you want.

The DW are not scoring, but are still a denial unit.

Or switch things around so DA become your primary detachment. You can still get an outrageous number of Chimeras, scoring bodies, and special weapons in an 'allied' Guard detachment that actually costs more points than the DA do.

Aren't GK allies of convenience, so non scoring when allied with IG?

 Sarigar wrote:
It can still be an option, I thought. You just cant have DW as a Troop choice. You would buy a Tac Squad, but they at least can be useful now.

See previous "tactical squads are garbage and not an option" comment. And elite Deathwing don't add anything to the army, because the whole point is I want scoring units that can move up into midfield and claim objectives rather than hoping to hold my "home" objective and clear my opponent off every single other objective on the table. I'm tired of 1-0 wins on objectives, I want a 3-0 win that has more margin of error.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Or switch things around so DA become your primary detachment. You can still get an outrageous number of Chimeras, scoring bodies, and special weapons in an 'allied' Guard detachment that actually costs more points than the DA do.

Not really an option. With only two allied troops slots and one HQ that's only two veteran squads and a CCS in Chimeras, compared to the 3+ veteran squads I'd do with pure IG. And it also means giving up on all the IG fast/heavy options I've built my list around, so that's not an option.

(And yes, you can do an outrageous number of Chimeras if you take garbage infantry squads in them, but that's a bad list. The Chimeras are a delivery system for the veterans, not the other way around.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rubicant99 wrote:
Aren't GK allies of convenience, so non scoring when allied with IG?

Only the worst level of allies are non-scoring. GK being allies of convenience means I can't abuse divination powers (sigh) but they're still scoring units.

 rubicant99 wrote:
Aren't GK allies of convenience, so non scoring when allied with IG?

only desperate allies do not score. Allies of convenience count as scoring normally

I've been considering demons. The tzeenetch demons are kinda shooty and you also have access to plague bearers to drop on an opponent's objective that could last a while. The HQ is nice and cheap too.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I've been considering demons. The tzeenetch demons are kinda shooty and you also have access to plague bearers to drop on an opponent's objective that could last a while. The HQ is nice and cheap too.

Hm. I suppose it could work, but aesthetically I hate demons.

I know where you're coming from. I can't stand the way the tzeenetch demons look. But 4+ invulnerable isn't bad and flamers make me excited.

So far When I started 6th I said I wasnt going to use space wolves as allies because I generally didnt like the crazy faces their dueds had because I thought they were too barbaric, But sadly I will say Ive jumped on the band wagon.

From what Ive learned if you want your termies scoring, like you said, you have to have logan grimnar. Makes it very expensive.

Secondly you can never go wrong with Grey hunter squads, yes they are basically tactical but a lot of their wargear is amazing. MotW gives 1 guy in the squad that doesnt have a power weapon d6+1 attacks and their banner allows you to reroll 1's to hit for a turn(shooting,assault,overwatch.) I have found that these units really hurt my opponents because if you drop them down in pods behind enemy lines it really screws with the enemy because giving them 2 meltas or plasmas will do some damage and if you assault them they have overwatch so they can get a lot of attacks back! but they are essentially tactical squads so i will end their.

With Wolf guard termies I would avoid the hammer and SS go because if you equip them with that they get more expensive than regualar assault termies that BA or Ultramarine termies have. Ive found most people vary with their equpment. Generally storm bolter as its stock or 5pts! For a combi weapon which Ive equiped all mine with a combi weapon, except 1 assault cannon. But with melee weapons people had told me to vary with mauls,axes, or swords if your staying cheap. But I include 1 chainfist in my 5 man squad and then use 2 swords and 2 axes on the rest. What I like best about these guys is the ability for them to take a drop pod. It allows the termies to have an accurate drop unless you go off the board.

You could take a 4 man WG squad make 1 a termie to attach to your Grey hunter squad to give it a nice 2+ save. With the 3 remaining WG equip them with combi meltas and put them in a drop pod. Basically its like 2 or 3 points cheaper than a melta stormtrooper squad.

The rune priest is the runes priest, essentially a great HQ and hes done me great in the few games Ive tried him.

My vote would be for the space wolves as they are some great and neat units and Ive found them to be really good since ive given them a go.

The problem with space wolves is that you're taking meq which have no real survivability bonus in a list with no other targets. The terminators require more shooting to down and have heavy weapons that the hunters can't access. This is made even worse by the fact that every army has an anti meq element due to the marine prelevance.
Sw work in foot guard, they just don't add to mech.

I think gk are probably going to be your best bet if you won't go near demons. Cheap hq, scoring terminators and useful support options like the DK or psyfleman.

if its purely the 'look' thatbputs you off demons, you could consider using the demon codex for mechanicum allies (Iv seen it done many times, and it fits rather well) which, assuming your mech guard aren't too radical, could fit with ad mech...

The OP pretty much described GK termies for allies. Nothing else will fill your criteria as well.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
The OP pretty much described GK termies for allies. Nothing else will fill your criteria as well.

GK Termies die too easily to AP2 to be a decent objective-holding ally.

Peregrine needs objective holders.

He needs a loganwing.

 TheCaptain wrote:


He needs a loganwing.

How are SW terminators more survivable than GK ones? It's not like you're going to have them all with storm shields, however the GKs can take the swords for +1 to the TDA invulnerable save.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


He needs a loganwing.

How are SW terminators more survivable than GK ones? It's not like you're going to have them all with storm shields, however the GKs can take the swords for +1 to the TDA invulnerable save.

Some 3++ is better than none. Stormshield termies mixed with CML is a solid objective-holding firebase.

I dunno, the survivability of some 3++ would equal out to all 4++ at the right numbers. Plus I think taking Logan is out of the question anyway. 275pts is quite a price to pay for something that can be done by a 30pt inquisitor.

Why take the 30pt Inquisitor when you can take Coteaz?

More points for the scoring unit(s) that op wants.

Although yeah, Coteaz is pretty awesome.

I think Grey Knights are what you're stuck with, Peregrine. It means losing divination, but I think divination is more useful to foot guard, anyway.

Best of luck.

You want Gk they are tough to take down without special weaponry. use them to hold objective while vets and vendettas eliminate anything that could legitimately threaten you scoring termies.

Also remember GK are much more shooty than DA use this to your advantage.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Some 3++ is better than none. Stormshield termies mixed with CML is a solid objective-holding firebase.

But how much better is that 3++? Obviously the SW terminators themselves are awesome, the problem is the 275 point HQ. For the price of HQ + one terminator unit with SW I could get a cheap HQ and two units of GK terminators. And I'm not convinced that a 3++ is going to equal double the models for durability. And it entirely removes the option to do a cheap allied detachment that doesn't take away too much from the IG core, with SW it's a minimum of 500+ points, 750+ if I want more than a single death star unit.

 captain collius wrote:
Also remember GK are much more shooty than DA use this to your advantage.

Not really. Sure, you get STR 5 storm bolters (if you're willing to pay for it), but you lose the cyclone missiles. I'd much rather have the DA unit than the GK one, it's just not available anymore.

Corollax wrote:
I think Grey Knights are what you're stuck with, Peregrine. It means losing divination, but I think divination is more useful to foot guard, anyway.

IMO divination is actually better for mech guard. Foot lists are all about attrition, while mech lists want a single maximum-firepower turn before they're destroyed. So twin-linked plasma vets, cover-ignoring Medusas, etc. Plus the insane psychic defense of a rune priest covering half the table from a mid-field Chimera. It's almost enough to make me want to take the the terminator/power armor hybrid units instead of pure terminators.

...Wait, this is all new? I thought the FAQ back when 6e launched specified that FOC-altering Special Characters' "unit X as Troops" rules only work with Primary Detachments...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Wait, this is all new? I thought the FAQ back when 6e launched specified that FOC-altering Special Characters' "unit X as Troops" rules only work with Primary Detachments...

No such FAQ exisits I believe, but both of the 6th edition codexes have not allowed force org. altering characters to work with allies.

The sword only upgrades the GK termies save to a 4++ in close combat (p. 54 of GK codex), at range they're still 5++

 TheCaptain wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
The OP pretty much described GK termies for allies. Nothing else will fill your criteria as well.

GK Termies die too easily to AP2 to be a decent objective-holding ally.

Peregrine needs objective holders.

He needs a loganwing.

I don't think his opponents will have too many opportunities to use AP2 weapons if his armor can block firing lanes, which should be easy. Also GK have some great shooty options which he wants.

Basically you'll have to change your tactics a bit if your opponent brings enough anti-TEQ with him, but it shouldn't be too hard as your vets will be destroying everything.

If you play against psykers then the rune priest is a great option. I played against an opponent who brought arhiman who can use 4 psychic powers a turn and my rune priest deffinitly stopped atleast half of them. Was a very nice feeling rolling a 4+ instead of a 6+ to get rid of his power that came at me.

Well, Belial's special rule is bad news for players who want to field DW as allies, the same can be said for Sammael and RW.
The only unit that fulfills your needs is a GK Termie squad. I'd go for it.

Not Mech IG specific, but Azrael's Lion Helm doesnt say it only gives 4++ to just Dark Angels anymore. So put him in a good size blob and you have a bunch of 4++ fearless Guardsmen.
The Powerfield Wargear that DA characters can take can also give 4++ to anything within 3". So a parking lot list can use it, bad idea if there's pie plates on the other side though.