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 liturgies of blood wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I am appalled at the individuals in this thread who think a hanging is too good for this scum.

You are too easy on them, living a life with no hope is a much better punishment. Death is an escape from the hell of an indian prison.

Sure, but last I checked there's never been a repeat offender from a noose. If you stream line the process unlike how we work it in the United States it's also cheaper. A win/win for society as a dangerous element is permanently removed, and they don't have to pay for a lifetime of shelter and feeding for said element.

. If you want to have due process you can't just kill them after the trial ends, that is how you kill the wrong people and I wouldn't be too surprised if there is one of the group that just watched and egged his friends on. While he deserves a harsh punishment does he deserve to die? The numbers of miscarriages of justice that happen in countries like India are a not negligible amount. There have been numerous cases of people being sentenced incorrectly and being released afterwards.

If you want to have due process and ensure that you're not putting the wrong person to death you have to wait ages to do it. Even when the case look dodgy and there was no way the person would be tried like an adult anywhere but texas it still takes 10 years to put someone to death. Death penalty costs so much more than life cos of the extra protection and treatment. So you fail on that.

There are numerous crimes that certain countries see as being as bad as rape: Uganda has some interesting ideas about homosexuality, Nigeria has - honest to god - witch trials. Etc etc
The taking of a life by the state devalues the meaning of life and fundamentally disagrees with the basic tenants that exist within any legal system, that someone can be redeemed. The a person can better themselves. If we truly think that anyone that murdered, raped or whatever deserves to die for it then society has taken a step back. Society doesn't work on the basis of wanting to be good for the sake of it, it is once again back to being good or we'll get you. It increases the force used by the state in every day life and no longer is it the soft threat of retribution it's the hard threat of death. Obey our society or die.
You may think that it's not an issue we live in democracies, look how quickly democracies decided to bring back internment and torture to deal with terrorism. If you really think that a democracy cannot do wrong you're misguided. All you need is one unjust law, a defendent who cannot meet the burden of proof required to exonerate or just happens to be a muslim accused of terrorism in the wrong part of the world and you will see an innocent death.

While I agree that legality doesn't necessarily make things morally right, someone who stood by and watched someone get brutally raped or even encouraged it should get just as harsh a penalty as the people who did it.

Godwin incoming!

Treating people like Untetmenschen that don't deserve to live? Yeah, excellent plan! Suppose it turns out, however unlikely, that they were innocent? Then what??

Seriously, we have enough primal urges fething up society; be the better man.

Then we say sorry and let them go...
I oppose the death penalty only because it's nearly impossible to be 100% sure of guilt.
If there is ever a method where we can find out if someone is guilty to that degree of accuracy I'd be all for it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sadsim? I'd hardly call it that. Sadisim is getting enjoyment from the infliction of pain on others. I might gain some satisfaction in knowing the criminal got his just reward but I'm not saying they should be tortured for the hell of it. They commited a crime and should recieve an appropriate punishment.

If you derive satisfaction from criminal being justly punished, and that punishment entails suffering, you also derive satisfaction from the suffering of others. And it is very difficult to claim that satisfaction does not entail a pleasure response.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Anything which is less suffering than their victim endured is not only wrong, its insulting to the dignity of the victim. It tells them that society really doesn't care about what happened to them.

How do you quantify suffering? And, more importantly, who determines what level of suffering is equivalent?

Also, why is the victim relevant to the punishment applied?

 purplefood wrote:
Then we say sorry and let them go...
I oppose the death penalty only because it's nearly impossible to be 100% sure of guilt.
If there is ever a method where we can find out if someone is guilty to that degree of accuracy I'd be all for it.

DNA evidence is pretty damning these days.

I'm going to butcher a quote from a judge from the America west that I've always liked.

"We didn't hang more then a few we should have, and they probably deserved it jest on principle"

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Godwin incoming!

Treating people like Untetmenschen that don't deserve to live? Yeah, excellent plan! Suppose it turns out, however unlikely, that they were innocent? Then what??

Seriously, we have enough primal urges fething up society; be the better man.

Pay their family weregild and move on for the old Germanic interpretation since you have to jump straight to Godwin.

You'd be hard pressed to convince me that murderers, rapists, pedophiles and the like /aren't/ sub-humans who deserve to be purged. Why feed and clothe them and let them live comfortably? To rehabilitate them? Right. That happens in the same fairy tail land that the Cheshire Cat wanders about in. It's no different then putting a bullet in the head of a rabid dog. Nor is it any more primal then taking a drink of water. If man is an animal and some sicknesses cannot be cured, you do what you must to remove the threat to the healthy and productive members of society. Justice is served, society is protected.

I'm not saying due process should be ignored. Absolutely not in cases of murder and rape it is all the more important, but when the time comes to serve sentence on the worst of us nothing is gained as species by showing these backsteps in humanity mercy. Then again I'm the type of person who'd like to see lashes in the public square come back for DUI. So take this as you will.

I'll save you bleeding hearts an image look up for your response.



Have you considered maybe your heart should bleed for the victims instead of those who did such harm?

 dogma wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

If we lost all laws we would see the difference between having punishment vs no punishment.

The punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime.

No deterrent is 100% effective, but they do work.

Right, but this isn't a debate about the presence of absence of punishment. This is a debate about why punishment should be adjusted to the crime, and how it should be done.

I agree that punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime, largely due to considerations of utility*, but the infliction of equivalent suffering is nothing more than a mixture of schadenfreude and sadism.


*The punishment must, on average, outweigh the utility of the crime.

Why not rehabilitation?

 Cheesecat wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

If we lost all laws we would see the difference between having punishment vs no punishment.

The punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime.

No deterrent is 100% effective, but they do work.

Right, but this isn't a debate about the presence of absence of punishment. This is a debate about why punishment should be adjusted to the crime, and how it should be done.

I agree that punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime, largely due to considerations of utility*, but the infliction of equivalent suffering is nothing more than a mixture of schadenfreude and sadism.


*The punishment must, on average, outweigh the utility of the crime.

Why not rehabilitation?

Do you believe that's possible?

 whembly wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

If we lost all laws we would see the difference between having punishment vs no punishment.

The punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime.

No deterrent is 100% effective, but they do work.

Right, but this isn't a debate about the presence of absence of punishment. This is a debate about why punishment should be adjusted to the crime, and how it should be done.

I agree that punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime, largely due to considerations of utility*, but the infliction of equivalent suffering is nothing more than a mixture of schadenfreude and sadism.


*The punishment must, on average, outweigh the utility of the crime.

Why not rehabilitation?

Do you believe that's possible?

For certain crimes, yes.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

If we lost all laws we would see the difference between having punishment vs no punishment.

The punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime.

No deterrent is 100% effective, but they do work.

Right, but this isn't a debate about the presence of absence of punishment. This is a debate about why punishment should be adjusted to the crime, and how it should be done.

I agree that punishment needs to be adjusted to the crime, largely due to considerations of utility*, but the infliction of equivalent suffering is nothing more than a mixture of schadenfreude and sadism.


*The punishment must, on average, outweigh the utility of the crime.

Why not rehabilitation?

Do you believe that's possible?

For certain crimes, yes.

But, not in this case...right?

You might be able to rehabilitate a thief or drug addict... but murderers, rapists, etc have crossed a line.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They didn't burn the victim, did they?

They disembowled her before throwing her from the bus.

Well rehab seems to work for Norway even with serial killers.

http://www.enn.com/top_stories/article/3950
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2000920,00.html

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Seriously, we have enough primal urges fething up society; be the better man.

1.you are a sexist pig, women have primal urges too.
2. Primal urges like beating a couple with an iron pipe, raping the woman, and dumping both naked in the street? Yeah they are in fact subhuman.

My opinion is that anyone guilty of the crimes these people are accused of committing need to be put down. It's not for revenge, but to eliminate any chance they have of doing this to someone else.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
You might be able to rehabilitate a thief or drug addict... but murderers, rapists, etc have crossed a line.

So we will go after Nelson Mandella for being a murderer?
He never rehabilitated into a man that was above violence? Every freedom fighter turned politician? The founders of Irish, French, American, Turkish, etc etc democracy were all beyond being able to stop killing people?
Anyone can change and anyone can kill in the right circumstances. The whole idea of rehabilitation is worthless if you say that someone is irredeemable.

Relapse wrote:
My opinion is that anyone guilty of the crimes these people are accused of committing need to be put down. It's not for revenge, but to eliminate any chance they have of doing this to someone else.

You know 6 foot of concrete between you and the outside world is as good a preventative? Once you move beyond just preventing them re-entering society then you are talking about revenge and not the protection of society.

"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."

-Mahatma Gandhi

Yeah, but the way I see it is that the difference between life in a 10x10 concrete cage and death of some form are roughly equivilent, and since one costs the tax payer more than the other I think it would be prudent to save money. Society has already been sufficiently harmed by these people in question, so why should we spend more money than we have to?

All of this after we have throughly given the criminals due process of course. I'd say having blood stained clothing and a defense that is clearly an admission of guilt we would all be squared away in that department.


Maybe the idea that Death is the worse sentance over life in prison is part of the problem here. What if we switched those around. I know if I had the choice I'd probably take death in 5 years from this date to over 40+ years behind bars to die of natural causes.

Lets cut down the number of Lifers to the number on Death Row and have those on Death Row become Lifers.

But it doesn't save money. The cost of bringing someone through the process of death penalty in america is so much more than holding someone in gen pop, that it is the same.
You have so many more appeals and court costs, the segregated cells in the max security prisons, the greater supervision as they may top themselves, the fact that they cannot work off the cost of their incarceration in prison work programs. And there is the cost of the execution itself.

If you are talking economy you have gotten a false one right there.

Which also needs fixing. limit on number of appeals and a shorter time till the fullfilment of the sentence. Or maybe an unlimited number of appeals, but the appeal doesn't reset the timer on the sentence.

So the defense has say 5 years max to gather new evidence after the initial trial.

Or appeal system really is screwed up. It needs streamlining. And with new methods of evidence gathering we really don't have any excuse for appeal after appeal when the original trial would have had the freshest evidence.


Its not like it was 20 years ago. Forensics is so advanced that we can get almost pinpoint details. We won't have exonerations 20 years after the fact anymore.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but the way I see it is that the difference between life in a 10x10 concrete cage and death of some form are roughly equivilent, and since one costs the tax payer more than the other I think it would be prudent to save money. Society has already been sufficiently harmed by these people in question, so why should we spend more money than we have to?

All of this after we have throughly given the criminals due process of course. I'd say having blood stained clothing and a defense that is clearly an admission of guilt we would all be squared away in that department.


Maybe the idea that Death is the worse sentance over life in prison is part of the problem here. What if we switched those around. I know if I had the choice I'd probably take death in 5 years from this date to over 40+ years behind bars to die of natural causes.

Lets cut down the number of Lifers to the number on Death Row and have those on Death Row become Lifers.

Except it's actually cheaper to keep criminals behind bars then to be on death row because death-row inmates are afforded a much more expensive trial, and multiple appeals .See, no one on a jury wants to be responsible for putting an innocent man to death, so the attorneys in those

cases get more expensive expert witnesses, and more lawyers are needed in general to prove absolutely the defendant's guilt. And when death-row inmates whine about "possible new evidence" and "DNA testing" and "It has been 100 percent proven that I am innocent 20 years after my

conviction," the appeals process inflates the bill by millions of dollars. As a society, it's the type of thing you can't let yourself get wrong.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/us/25death.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all&

 Grey Templar wrote:
Which also needs fixing. limit on number of appeals and a shorter time till the fullfilment of the sentence. Or maybe an unlimited number of appeals, but the appeal doesn't reset the timer on the sentence.

So the defense has say 5 years max to gather new evidence after the initial trial.

Or appeal system really is screwed up. It needs streamlining. And with new methods of evidence gathering we really don't have any excuse for appeal after appeal when the original trial would have had the freshest evidence.


Its not like it was 20 years ago. Forensics is so advanced that we can get almost pinpoint details. We won't have exonerations 20 years after the fact anymore.

We will have exonerations 20 years from now I guarantee it.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Relapse wrote:
My opinion is that anyone guilty of the crimes these people are accused of committing need to be put down. It's not for revenge, but to eliminate any chance they have of doing this to someone else.

You know 6 foot of concrete between you and the outside world is as good a preventative? Once you move beyond just preventing them re-entering society then you are talking about revenge and not the protection of society.

It would be nice if they stayed inside that 6' of concrete, but a lot don't and they kill more people. This from a website citing instances:


http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html

A SHORT LIST OF MURDERERS RELEASED TO MURDER AGAIN

This is just a short list I compiled when I set out to find people who were already convicted of murder and afterwards committed murder again.
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John McRae -- Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending on 2 other counts in Florida.
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John Miller -- California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder, 1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
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Michael Lawrence -- Florida. Killed robbery victim. Life term, 1976. Paroled 1985. Killed robbery victim. Condemned 1990.
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Donald Dillbeck -- Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after escape. Condemned 1991.
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Edward Kennedy -- Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after prison break. Executed 1992.
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Dawud Mu'Min -- Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997.
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Viva Nash -- Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah, 1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in Arizona, 1983.
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Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.
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Norman Parker -- Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder, 1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in 1979.
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Winford Stokes -- Missouri. Ruled insane on two counts of murder 1969. Escaped from asylum, 1978. Murdered again. Executed for this murder, 1990.
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Charles Crawford -- Missouri. Life term in 1965 for murder. Paroled 1990. Convicted of murder again in 1994.
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Jack Ferrell -- Florida. Committed Murdered 1981. 15 years to life, 1982. Paroled 1987. Murdered again 1992. Condemned 1993.
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Timothy Buss -- Murdered five-year-old girl. Sentenced to 25 years in 1981. Paroled 1993. Murdered 10-year-old boy. Condemned 1996.
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Martsay Bolder -- Missouri. Serving a sentence of life for first-degree murder in 1973. Murdered prison cellmate 1979.
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Henry Brisbon, Illinois. Murdered 2 in robbery. Sentenced to 1000- 3000 years. Killed inmate in prison 1982. Sentenced to DP. Commuted by Governor Ryan.
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Randolph Dial -- Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden's wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden's wife never found.
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Arthur J. Bomar, Jr. -- released from prison in Nevada on parole in 1990. Bomar had served 11 years of a murder sentence for killing a man over an argument about a parking space. Six years later in Pennsylvania, Bomar brutally kidnapped, raped and murdered George Mason University star athlete Aimee Willard.
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Dwain Little -- Oregon. Raped/Stabbed 16-year-old girl. Life term 1966. Paroled 1974. Returned as Parole Violator 1975. Again Released 1977. Then shot family of 4. Three consecutive life terms for rape and murder 1980.
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Arthur Shawcross (The 'Monster of the Rivers') -- Released after serving a 25 year sentence for a child murder, turned to murdering prostitutes. At least 10 in all. Now serving ten consecutive sentences of 25 years to life - 250 years in all.
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Samuel D. Smith -- in prison for murdering Zita Casey, 79, during a burglary in St. Louis in 1978. While in prison he murdered another inmate, Marlin May, during a knife fight in 1987 in prison.
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Darrell P. Pandeli -- After being released from prison after a conviction for murder, Pandeli murdered a prostitute, cut off her nipples and flushed them down the toilet. Now on DR in Arizona for that second recidivist murder.
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Chad Allen Lee -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Released and went on murder spree. Murdering Linda Reynolds, a pizza delivery person, and 9 days later robbed and murdered David Lacey, a taxi cab driver. Lee then robbed a mini-market 7 days after than. Shooting the owner, Harold Drury, multiple times without reason.
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Scott Lehr -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Later released. After release, between Feb 91 and Feb 92 lured 10 different female victims, between the ages of 10 and 48-years-old, into his car. Raping and beating them unconscious, stripped and adandoned them in the desert. Three of his victims died in those acts.
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James Erin McKinney -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Later released. Then murdered Christine Mertens in a home invasion robbery. Later murdered James McClain in another separate home invasion robbery.
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Michael Murdaugh -- Convicted of capital murder. Sentenced to other than death. Later released. After release murdered David Reynolds. Beating him to death. When 'dumping' the body, Murdaugh severed Reynold's head and hands, pulled out his teeth, and buried the body parts.
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Charles Daniels -- was convicted and sentenced to Life for the 1965 rape and murder of a Louisiana woman. Later having his sentence commuted, he was release. And he again killed another woman, 32-year-old Debbie Tatum.
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Jarmarr Arnold -- who, while on DR, murdered another DR inmate by stabbing him in the forehead with a sharpen spike. Proving that not even a death sentence can prevent murder until the sentence is carried out.
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Robert Lee Massie -- Sentenced to the DP, but overturned by Furman, which resulted in him committing further new murders.
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Kenneth McDuff - Sentenced to the DP, but overturned by Furman. Subsequently released, and murdered as many as 19 young women after his release. Finally executed in 1998 for the murder of Melissa Ann Northrup see ... Who once remarked "Killing a woman is like killing a chicken. They both squawk."
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Darryl Kemp -- Sentenced to the DP, but overturned by Furman. Subsequently released. Authorities now say he raped and strangled a woman jogging, less than 4 months later.
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Timothy Hancock -- Serving a life sentence for a murder he committed in 1990, murdered his cellmate, Jason Wagner, in November 2000, while serving his life sentence.
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Howard Allen -- murdered an elderly woman.. Opal Cooper, in Aug 1974, and was sentenced to 21 years in prison. By January 1985, less than ten years after being incarcerated, Howard Allen was released. On May 20, 1987 Howard Allen broke into the home of eighty-seven year old Laverne Hale, and savagely beat her to death. Six weeks later Allen struck again. On July 13, 1987 Howard Allen knocked on the door of Ernestine Griffin. At lunchtime the following day she was found murdered. On June 11, 1988 Allen was found guilty was found guilty of Ernestine’s murder.
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Melvin Geary -- originally sentenced to L wop, for the stabbing death of a woman in 1973 with a boning knife. Changed to Life.. released... After his release, Geary was subsequently convicted of murdering 71-year-old Edward Colvin of Sparks, again with a boning knife after Colvin took him in.
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William Coday Jr. -- convicted of murdering 19-year-old Lisa Hullinger in September 1978. After spending just 15 months in a German prison, he was released. In April 2002, he was convicted of having murdered Gloria Gomez on 13 July, 1997.
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Corey R. Barton -- In 1983 he murdered 16-year-old Shari-Ann Merton. He received 18 years in prison. He was released after serving 9 years and 8 months. In November 1998, he murdered 27 year-old Sally Harris of North Carolina.
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Cuhuatemoc Hinricky Peraita -- Rainbow City, Alabama, who was serving life without parole for 3 murders in Gadsden, Alabama was found guilty of capital murder for murdering a fellow inmate.
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James Prestridge -- Sentenced to L wop, for murdering Esfandiar Ateighechi, as he begged for his life in 1989. Escaped from prison along with John Doran. After their escape Prestridge murdered his fellow-escapee John Doran, shooting him in the back of the head.
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Jimmy Lee Gray -- who was free on parole from an Arizona conviction for killing a 16-year-old high school girl, kidnapped, sodomized, and suffocated a three-year-old Mississippi girl.
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Jack Henry Abbott, who had murdered a fellow prison inmate, was released early from a Utah prison. On July 18, 1981, six-weeks after his release, Abbott stabbed actor Richard Adan to death in New York.
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Benny Lee Chaffin, on December 7, 1984 kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old Springfield, Oregon girl. He had been convicted of murder once before in Texas, but not executed.
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Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death.
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Wayne Henry Garrison, 42, was convicted of 1st-degree murder in the death of Justin Wiles 13, of Tulsa. As a teenager, Garrison had killed two children in Tulsa. Police earlier said the circumstances of those killings were similar to Justin's death.
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Tommy Arthur -- sentenced to die in Alabama's electric chair for killing Troy Wicker in a 1982 murder for-hire scheme in Muscle Shoals. Arthur had already been convicted in 1977 of killing the sister of his common-law wife. He had been sentenced to life for that murder.
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Robert Lynn Pruett -- a convicted killer already serving a life sentence, fatally stabbed prison guard Daniel Nagle with a sharpened rod while patrolling the Texas Department of Criminal Justice McConnell Unit near Beeville in South Texas. It was the first fatal attack on a Texas corrections officer since guard Minnie Houston was stabbed to death in 1984 by an inmate at the Ellis Unit near Huntsville, a prison official said.
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Miguel Salas Rodriguez -- charged in the murder of a sheriff's deputy. Sgt. David M. Furrh, 40, in Dec 2000. Rodriguez had a December 1973 conviction of homicide without malice, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison. And yet ANOTHER conviction for murder in April 1979, for which he was sentenced to 70 years in prison. Rodriguez was paroled in October 1989.
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Bennie Demps --condemned to the DP for the 1976 murder of Alfred Sturgis, a prison snitch. Originally, Demps was sent to death row for the murders of R.N. Brinkworth and Celia Puhlick, who were fatally shot in a Lake County citrus grove. A year after Demps was sent to death row, the U.S. Supreme Court threw out capital punishment across the country, ruling death sentences had been imposed in an arbitrary way. Another failure of the Furman-commuted murderers.
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Leroy Schmitz -- convicted of strangling his live-in girlfriend in 1986, during an argument. He was sentenced to 18-20 years for that homicide. He was later convicted of murdering his wife, in Whitefish, Montana in 1999.
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Vernon Sattiewhite -- In 1977, Sattiewhite had been sentenced to five years for a murder but was paroled two years later and granted clemency. In 1984, he was convicted of robbery and sentenced to two years in prison but was paroled after less than six months. Soon after he murdered his ex-girlfriend, Sandra Sorrell.
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Tomas G. Ervin -- Sentenced to death in 1990, after conviction of the December 1988 murders of Mildred L. Hodges, 75, and her son, Richard E. Hodges. Bert Hunter, who was arrested along with Ervin pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder charges. Hunter and Ervin had met in the Missouri State Penitentiary, where they were both serving life sentences for previous murders.
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William Michael "Billy the Kid" Mason -- killed his wife three weeks after he was paroled on another murder conviction.
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Daniel Joe Hittle -- convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death for murdering a police officer Hittle, 40, was described by witnesses as a man who gleefully killed or tortured animals and who routinely beat women and children. He was on parole for the killings of his adoptive parents in Minnesota when he shot Garland police officer Gerald Walker during a traffic stop. Hittle then sped to East Dallas, where he fatally shot Mary Alice Goss, 39; Richard Joseph Cook Jr., 36; Raymond Scott Gregg, 19; and Goss' 4-year-old daughter Christy Condon.
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Tony Walker -- Texas. Convicted of murder in 1978. Sentenced to 5 years. Murdered a 66 year-old woman and her 81 year-old husband in 1992. Jerome Butler -- Found guilty of the shooting of cab driver Nathan Oakley, 67. Oakley had been a Houston cab driver for 30 years. Butler had an extensive criminal history, including a 1959 conviction on two counts of robbery and assault in New York City. Butler had previously served about 10 years of a 30-year sentence after pleading guilty to the murder of A.C. Johnson, 69.
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Dalton Prejean -- killed a taxi driver when he was 14, . When he was 17, he gunned down a state trooper in Lafayette, Louisiana. Despite protests from the American Civil Liberties Union and other abolitionist groups, Prejean was executed for the second murder on May 18, 1990.
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Phillip Jablonski -- Carol Spadoni married Jablonski on June 16, 1982, while he was serving a prison sentence for the 1979 murder of his third wife, Melinda Kimball. After she became his pen-pal correspondent in prison. Jablonski murdered his prison pen-pal wife and her mother. And the day before those murders he had murdered Fathyma Vann, 38, in Indio, about 25 miles from Palm Springs, Vann was found shot and sexually mutilated in the desert with ``I love Jesus'' carved in her back." Now GET THIS -- See... It seems that Phillip Jablonski, now in prison after ALL those murders, placed an ad for a pen-pal -- "Jewish Death Row inmate, white, 51 years old, seeking understanding and open female or male for honest correspondence. Amateur poet, artist. Will answer all correspondence received. PHILLIP JABLONSKI, C-02477/SE95, San Quentin, CA 94974"
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Jerry Michael Ward -- Originally sentenced to die in the electric chair, for committing murder with malice in the rape and murder of a Houston school girl. His sentence was commuted to life in prison when the U.S. Supreme Court abolished the death penalty in 1972. Although the death penalty was reinstated, the sentence was not. He was subsequently paroled in 1984 after serving 18 years in prison. He was the number one suspect in two new cases, involving the the disappearance of Connie Sue Cooke, and the murder of Brenda Maureen Hackett. But althought police were on the verge of arresting him, Ward committed suicide in a self-inflicted execution.
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David E. Maust -- Hammond, Illinois. Murdered a 15-year-old boy in 1981. After released murdered three teenage boys, in circumstances similiar to John Wayne Gacy... burying their bodies in concrete in his basement.
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James Homer Elledge -- sent to prison for life in 1975 after beating a Seattle motel owner to death with a ball-peen hammer. In the years that followed, he won parole 3 times, most recently in August 1995. prosecutors have now charged Elledge with 1st-degree murder for allegedly stabbing and strangling Eloise Jane Fitzner, 47, in a church basement.
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Zeno E. Sims -- sent to prison for eight years for the murder of a 24-year-old-man. Released on parole, in Kansas City, he then murdered DeAntreia L Ashley, a 15-year-old-girl, after a minor traffic accident.
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Arthur James Julius -- convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison. In 1978, he was given a brief leave from prison, during which he raped and murdered a cousin. He was sentenced to death for that crime and was executed on November 17, 1989.
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In March 1979, a Graterford (Pa.) prison guard was murdered brutally by an inmate. The inmate -- at the time he murdered the guard -- already was serving a life sentence for the triple murder of two infants and an elderly woman.
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In 1994, an inmate who already was serving two life sentences in the Philadelphia Industrial Correctional Center was sentenced to three more after he was convicted of stabbing three prison guards.
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In 1995, two death-row inmates at the Florida State Prison in Starke were killed by their fellow inmates.
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In 1999, a Beeville (Texas) prison guard was killed by an inmate already serving a sentence for murder.
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On November 9, 1983 Associate U.S. Attorney General D. Lowell Jensen told a Senate subcommittee that it is impossible to punish or even deter such prison murders because, without a death sentence, a violent life-termer has free rein "to continue to murder as opportunity and his perverse motives dictate."
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On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two SEPARATE instances by SEPARATE inmates who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
You might be able to rehabilitate a thief or drug addict... but murderers, rapists, etc have crossed a line.

So we will go after Nelson Mandella for being a murderer?
He never rehabilitated into a man that was above violence? Every freedom fighter turned politician? The founders of Irish, French, American, Turkish, etc etc democracy were all beyond being able to stop killing people?
Anyone can change and anyone can kill in the right circumstances. The whole idea of rehabilitation is worthless if you say that someone is irredeemable.

Relapse wrote:
My opinion is that anyone guilty of the crimes these people are accused of committing need to be put down. It's not for revenge, but to eliminate any chance they have of doing this to someone else.

You know 6 foot of concrete between you and the outside world is as good a preventative? Once you move beyond just preventing them re-entering society then you are talking about revenge and not the protection of society.

There's s difference between killing and murder chief, you want to choose to ignore it that's you're problem not mine. Your need to compare soldiers to rapists and murders also suggests some internal issues and questions you need to sort out eh?

You know, I sometimes wonder how people could ever become as sick as the people who committed these crimes. But then I read the revenge fantasy porn in this thread and think 'man, and these are just middle class kids, and look at all the sick gak they want to do to some guys they just read about on-line. I guess I can kind of see how someone raised in a slum could end up as fethed up as those rapists.'

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The US, UK and Ireland use the same sort of defence against rape. All common law courts see that defence (don't know about civil law systems), the only difference is the weight that it carries. 30 years ago in the UK panorama had an exposé of the interview that rape victims had to suffer through. Nobody has an ivory tower to sit in.

Even with the best intentions rape is an extremely difficult thing to prosecute. Judicial systems have been struggling to establish the best ways to figure that out for a few decades now.

And while among some people there is, unfortunately, something of a bias to believe that a woman who was raped somehow did something to bring on the attack... the system itself doesn't allow that as a defence. What we're seeing here in India is a clear and distinct element of misogyny that we, thankfully, managed to remove from our societies generations ago.

And the point is not to single India out for the problems with sex in their society, because they're now looking to overcome them. The point is to acknowledge how far much of the world has to go.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, they raped and killed a person. Why should their punishment be less worse than what they did to the victim?

Because it will be our legal processes giving that punishment. What we allow those processes to deliver reflects directly on us.

I, personally, am not a twisted little psycho, and so I don't revel or enjoy inflicting torture. And so I do not want my legal processes to do such things.


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Relapse wrote:
A SHORT LIST OF MURDERERS RELEASED TO MURDER AGAIN

Your argument ignores the idea that you can have life in prison mean life in prison, and is therefore useless in establishing the idea that the death penalty is somehow needed.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:


There's s difference between killing and murder chief, you want to choose to ignore it that's you're problem not mine. Your need to compare soldiers to rapists and murders also suggests some internal issues and questions you need to sort out eh?

Ha soldiers, so is that what we call terrorists who attack the state? OH NO WE DON'T, not yet anyway. History glosses over the facts and we forget that they killed people.
The difference between a gang and a soldier is time and a good PR team.

I didn't compare soldiers and rapists. You need to desperately justify your need to see some guys die.

The difference between murder and killing is if you get prosecuted. That is it. We don't prosecute soldiers because we understand that that murder(or the intentional killing of a human being) is justified in the defence of innocents. Self-defence is similar but we say that you can only use reasonable force and can only justify killing when a jury agrees that it was unavoidable. Lots of people have gotten caught on the wrong side of reasonable force, are these murderers irredeemable?
My point was that people kill and people who don't mean to kill get done for murder. Not everyone that murders is irredeemable and many have gone on to do great things and others just go on to become productive members of society.

Don King is a great business man and promotions expert.
The alleged former heads of the IRA work in government with former UDF members in Northern Ireland.
etc etc

You'll find that terrorists mostly murder, you guessed it! Civilians!

I don't need to see these men die, it's not something I jerk off to at night in the shower. Should they die? Why yes. Yes they should. But then, so should a rabid dog.

You want to talk the differences between freedom fighters and terrorists we're gonna have to start another thread, because that's a whole 'nother dog in a whole different fight.

"The difference between a gang and a soldier is time and a good PR team. "

*snicker* Man do you /read/ what you say?

I did read what I said, cos what were washington and his army? Insurgents and traitors to the crown, described as a gang of upstarts.
ANC described as a gang of murderers in their early days.
IRA, IRB, Irish volunteers were just gangs in the beginning.
Spartacus and his army of slaves started off as a few guys that escaped.
The people of france that rose up to storm the bastile?


The reason you kill a rabid dog is to prevent it doing harm to others and to end it's suffering. If you don't have to put a murderer "out of their misery", why do you have to kill it after you remove their ability to attack the public again? Has charles manson gotten out?
Did the Kray twins get out?
No.

@Sebster:

There are enough times that life in prison doesn't mean life in prison, added to the people some of these characters murder while in prison that lead to my opinion.
I'm not talking about executing someone that kills another person in the angry heat of a moment, but those that plan out a murder or torture someone to death as what happened in a lot of the examples I put forward.


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 liturgies of blood wrote:
I did read what I said, cos what were washington and his army? Insurgents and traitors to the crown, described as a gang of upstarts.
ANC described as a gang of murderers in their early days.
IRA, IRB, Irish volunteers were just gangs in the beginning.
Spartacus and his army of slaves started off as a few guys that escaped.
The people of france that rose up to storm the bastile?


The reason you kill a rabid dog is to prevent it doing harm to others and to end it's suffering. If you don't have to put a murderer "out of their misery", why do you have to kill it after you remove their ability to attack the public again? Has charles manson gotten out?
Did the Kray twins get out?
No.

Those people I cited certainly got out.

We have the death sentence and some of the toughest crime laws. Yet we have more people in prison per capita than how many nations?

Please tell me how "tough on crime" has worked for us over the last 50 years?

 d-usa wrote:
We have the death sentence and some of the toughest crime laws. Yet we have more people in prison per capita than how many nations?

Please tell me how "tough on crime" has worked for us over the last 50 years?

Because... if we didn't, then we'd have total Anarchy here?

I think the prison/judicial system here is more about keeping the convicts out of the public than the actual punishment.