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Not to nit-pick, but the phrase is in the 4th Edition Space Marines Codex too (Graham McNeill and Pete Haines)

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Well, Ultramarine geneseed IS the purest. So is Dark Angel geneseed.

This is true. I was more referring to the statement that Ultramarines was the purest of ALL. Implying that no other chapter was as pure. Its been a pretty common misconception since I started playing 40k 15 years ago. Just trying to stem the spread of misinformation with the light of truth wherever I can.

 Archon Tobias wrote:
I borrowed my friends codex yesterday to check his list (he's checking mine too), and I decided to read some of the fluff, since I haven't got the space marine army book. On page 24 it mentions that every SM wants to be an Ultramarine. I know the book was written by matt ward, and I know he loves ultramarines with all his being, but isn't that a little extreme? I'm pretty sure grey knights don't say: "Jee, being the emperors finest, incorruptible warriors is boring, we only get the most important tasks. I wish I was an ultra marine."

PS. This isn't a troll post.

A. Grey knights are a completly seperate organisation from other Space Marines, and most likely don't actually see themselves as Marines due to the massive difference in their Chapter's mission statement.
B. The reason that most Marines idolise the Ultramarines is that most Chapters are either genetically descended or tactically descended from the Ultramarines. And no matter what certain forum elements say, they have one of the greatest records of any chapter, even other first founding chapters.

So wait the Grey Knights, The Bluud Rahvens, the Iron Hands, The Raven Guard,, The Imperial Fists, The Wanderers, the Dark Angels, all want to be Ultramarines?!?!?!?!?!?
I think ward mean't all successors of the Ultramarines wish to be an ultramarine.

That is correct. The issue is that ultramarine successors outnumber other chapters like 10-20 to 1. So, yeah, te majority of SM want to be like the ultras.

 pretre wrote:
That is correct. The issue is that ultramarine successors outnumber other chapters like 10-20 to 1. So, yeah, te majority of SM want to be like the ultras.

While Imperial fists, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, White Scars, and their successors want to be like their corresponding legion. (Except maybe the Dark angel Successors maybe want to be away from that as much as possible especially if they are not in the inner circle.)

Exactly. The space marine codex doesn't claim otherwise.

 pretre wrote:
Exactly. The space marine codex doesn't claim otherwise.

(plus the only chapters in my opinion that actually do within the imperium that doesn't correspond in their home systems.

 pretre wrote:
That is correct. The issue is that ultramarine successors outnumber other chapters like 10-20 to 1. So, yeah, te majority of SM want to be like the ultras.

Its only 3 to 1 mate.

Last number I heard is they make up a 3/4ths of all successor chapters.


Thats also a crazy claim considering that most successor chapters have their own histories and are very proud of it. The think highly of the UMs but to say that the UM chapter master is a "spiritual liege" of them is odd considering that some chapters could have chapter masters that are older than Malgor is. Look at the Mortifactors, a successor of the UMs, they have an extremely different approach to the Codex and it is clear they could care less about the UMs. The respect them enough to honor a request for support but beyond that they dont care at all. They have their own traditions they honor more than they honor the UMs.



Thats of course ignoring the other 1/4 of the chapters out there like the Imperial Fist which have such an impressive military honors record that there is reasonable debate over which chapter (IF or UM) is actually better. The Space Wolves and Black Templar both said feth the codex completely and have a "chapter" 10 times or more bigger than the UMs. The Blood Angels are worshipped across the Imperium for the fact that Sangiunius is their Primarch and that alone.



Its one thing to say all the chapters respect the Ultramarines. Its a whole other thing to consider them the perfect legion that everyone tries to live up too and they consider a simple marine from that chapter to be the spiritual liege of their chapters.

 pretre wrote:
That is correct.

Ward himself would disagree.

It is only "a few" divergent chapters who do not.

Few compared to the vast majority of um successors. I think it is also clear that, like many codexes, that book was written from the perspective of the ultras.

 pretre wrote:
Few compared to the vast majority of um successors. I think it is also clear that, like many codexes, that book was written from the perspective of the ultras.

That isn't what he meant and you're lying to yourself by saying that. He said this concerning an interview about... The Blood Angels.

What do you think he meant by "divergent"?

And I'm not talking about the codex itself atm.

 Galdos wrote:

 pretre wrote:
That is correct. The issue is that ultramarine successors outnumber other chapters like 10-20 to 1. So, yeah, te majority of SM want to be like the ultras.

Its only 3 to 1 mate.

Last number I heard is they make up a 3/4ths of all successor chapters.

It's only roughly 60-65% (almost 2/3rds)

It would be correct if she's trying to say the Ultramarines have a 10-20:1 ratio against each other chapter individually. As in 10-20 times bigger than the Imperial Fists successors. And 10-20 times the Blood Angels successors, etc.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 pretre wrote:
That is correct. The issue is that ultramarine successors outnumber other chapters like 10-20 to 1. So, yeah, te majority of SM want to be like the ultras.

Its only 3 to 1 mate.

Last number I heard is they make up a 3/4ths of all successor chapters.

It's only roughly 60-65% (almost 2/3rds)

It would be correct if she's trying to say the Ultramarines have a 10-20:1 ratio against each other chapter individually. As in 10-20 times bigger than the Imperial Fists successors. And 10-20 times the Blood Angels successors, etc.

I thought it was 2/3rds, thanks for the correction

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Few compared to the vast majority of um successors. I think it is also clear that, like many codexes, that book was written from the perspective of the ultras.

That isn't what he meant and you're lying to yourself by saying that. He said this concerning an interview about... The Blood Angels.

What do you think he meant by "divergent"?

And I'm not talking about the codex itself atm.

Citation needed then. Would still like to see this alleged quote.

Galdos wrote:
Thats also a crazy claim considering that most successor chapters have their own histories and are very proud of it. The think highly of the UMs but to say that the UM chapter master is a "spiritual liege" of them is odd considering that some chapters could have chapter masters that are older than Malgor is. Look at the Mortifactors, a successor of the UMs, they have an extremely different approach to the Codex and it is clear they could care less about the UMs. The respect them enough to honor a request for support but beyond that they dont care at all. They have their own traditions they honor more than they honor the UMs.

I think you're underestimating this. We've seen the strength of the bond back to the legions in the behaviors of the successors of the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. It would be incredibly silly to think the successors of the Ultramarines don't share a similar bond. They all trace their lineage back to the same place. Guilliman. And the legacy of the Ultramarines eclipses that of all the other First Founding chapters. Sure, some of them do their own thing and don't care. We see examples of that with all the First Founding chapters, not just the Ultramarines. But ultimately, the idea that the Ultramarines successors have a strong bond and look to their parent chapter for guidance and with admiration is not unique to the Ultramarines. Read up on the Dark Angels and Blood Angels successors, or the Imperial Fists successors, and then revisit this idea. You'll see how wrong you are.

there is reasonable debate over which chapter (IF or UM) is actually better.

Not really. We know the Ultramarines have had a more glorious history. Games Workshop told us so. That doesn't say anything bad about the Imperial Fists. But there's no "reasonable" debate. There's just debate. Nothing about those debates are reasonable. This is the Internet. We have the knowledge of thousands of lifetimes at our fingertips, and instead we argue with strangers.

The Space Wolves and Black Templar both said feth the codex completely and have a "chapter" 10 times or more bigger than the UMs.

The Black Templars might have six to ten times. The Space Wolves are guessed at maybe twice the size of infantry assets. It's doubtful they control significantly more fleet assets than a Chapter which controls shipbuilding manufacturing capability, lol. And the Space Wolves never said "feth" the Codex completely. They just didn't want to reorganize using the Codex guidelines, and their gene seed defect made using Codex recruitment and training methods impossible.

The problem most people have is that they confuse two different ideas as a single idea.

Only the Ultramarines successors look at the Ultramarines Chapter Master as a spiritual liege. This makes sense. They're all Ultramarines in the end. If they had a primarch, (yo, I'll solve it), it would be Guilliman. Guilliman was the primarch of the Ultramarines. For the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines were Ultramarines. If the Black Library legion sizes are taken as canon, that's like 200-250 Chapters, lol. Even those who weren't Second Founding are taking their lineage mostly from either the Ultramarines directly, or from Second Founding chapters. So yeah, there will be a Mortifacators here and there. There's going to be a lot more Eagle Warriors or Marines Errant or Howling Griffons.

The other idea is that "They can never be Ultramarines". It's a stupid sentence, sure. But it has nothing to do with the spiritual liege statement. It's just typical silly codex bias. No worse than other stuff in other codex books. But it's the Ultramarines, who people hate irrationally. So it's a big deal, instead of a joke.

People are forgetting one very important word... "like". They want to be like the ultramarines, not actually be ultramarines. Since the ultramarines are THE textbook marine chapter, it makes sense that most other chapters would want to be like them, doesn't it?

 BryllCream wrote:
People are forgetting one very important word... "like". They want to be like the ultramarines, not actually be ultramarines. Since the ultramarines are THE textbook marine chapter, it makes sense that most other chapters would want to be like them, doesn't it?

It could also mean that they would all aspire to have the respect, prestige, pedigree, and record that the UM do (who wouldn't?) Twice ruling the Imperium, twice walking away from it and giving it back to the Lords, having well over half the chapters acknowledge you as their "father" chapter, and probably half of that following your lead, not too bad.

Might I add that the White Consuls, Iron Snakes, Sons of Orar, Silver Skulls, Novamarines and others are all known to send representatives to the Fortress of Hera, have seats on the Senate on Ultramar, send veterans on a pilgrimage to Guilliman's Shrine, train in concert with the UM, and respond to Calgar's summons when possible in company or greater strength. Its very clear that much like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels have with their successors, there are several (probably hundreds) of chapters that hold close very ties and correspondence with the Master of Ultramar.

We also know that probably hundreds of UM successors that want nothing to do with Macragge, and follow Guilliman in their own, unique way.

We've seen the strength of the bond back to the legions in the behaviors of the successors of the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. It would be incredibly silly to think the successors of the Ultramarines don't share a similar bond. They all trace their lineage back to the same place. Guilliman. And the legacy of the Ultramarines eclipses that of all the other First Founding chapters. Sure, some of them do their own thing and don't care. We see examples of that with all the First Founding chapters, not just the Ultramarines. But ultimately, the idea that the Ultramarines successors have a strong bond and look to their parent chapter for guidance and with admiration is not unique to the Ultramarines.

People are forgetting one very important word... "like". They want to be like the ultramarines, not actually be ultramarines. Since the ultramarines are THE textbook marine chapter, it makes sense that most other chapters would want to be like them, doesn't it?

It could also mean that they would all aspire to have the respect, prestige, pedigree, and record that the UM do (who wouldn't?) Twice ruling the Imperium, twice walking away from it and giving it back to the Lords, having well over half the chapters acknowledge you as their "father" chapter, and probably half of that following your lead, not too bad.

Might I add that the White Consuls, Iron Snakes, Sons of Orar, Silver Skulls, Novamarines and others are all known to send representatives to the Fortress of Hera, have seats on the Senate on Ultramar, send veterans on a pilgrimage to Guilliman's Shrine, train in concert with the UM, and respond to Calgar's summons when possible in company or greater strength. Its very clear that much like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels have with their successors, there are several (probably hundreds) of chapters that hold close very ties and correspondence with the Master of Ultramar.

So as not to post anything redundant, I agree with the statements above as being much more thoughtful reasons as to why there are a great many Space Marine chapters who would aspire to the qualities if the Ultramarines.

Much like the Dark Angels successors would aspire to be just like their "Spiritual Liege", the Lion, or the Black Templars or Soul Drinkers would idolize Rogal Dorn.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I think you're underestimating this. We've seen the strength of the bond back to the legions in the behaviors of the successors of the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. It would be incredibly silly to think the successors of the Ultramarines don't share a similar bond. They all trace their lineage back to the same place. Guilliman. And the legacy of the Ultramarines eclipses that of all the other First Founding chapters. Sure, some of them do their own thing and don't care. We see examples of that with all the First Founding chapters, not just the Ultramarines. But ultimately, the idea that the Ultramarines successors have a strong bond and look to their parent chapter for guidance and with admiration is not unique to the Ultramarines. Read up on the Dark Angels and Blood Angels successors, or the Imperial Fists successors, and then revisit this idea. You'll see how wrong you are.

Lets see, the bonds are very strong yes. Judging from the Mortifactors (UM books) Blood Ravens (DoW) Crimson Fist (Rynn's World) Black Templar (Helsreach) Silver Skulls (Gildar Rift) Excoriators (Legion of the Damned) however, if you asked any of these if they idolize their parent chapters, they would punch you in the face. These chapters have such a strong loyalty for their own chapters they would laugh if anyone suggest they are second to anyone. The Mortifactors almost refused to work with the UM and told the UMs that they didnt understand the codex at all and they ARE a successor chapter of the UM. They RESPECT their parent chapters but respect does not mean idolize or want to be the same as that chapter because they believe that they are the finest chapter of the Imperium. Thats going to be trait seen in every chapter of the Imperium. In fact if a chapter fails to consider itself the finest chapter of the Imperium that chapter is going to fail horribly. Its all about how to motivate your army how to fight.

Lets use the modern day military. Every single combat unit considers itself to be one of the finest units in the military. The 101st Airborne considers itself the finest US army divion likewise the 82nd considers itself the finest. Its vital to motivating yourself to fight. They both have a proud combat history. They respect each other but neither would say "the other is better" because of the pride for their own history.

You should actually read up on how the successors talk to their parent damages and you will see how wrong you are. They consider them close brothers, more like twins than anything else.

Not really. We know the Ultramarines have had a more glorious history. Games Workshop told us so. That doesn't say anything bad about the Imperial Fists. But there's no "reasonable" debate. There's just debate. Nothing about those debates are reasonable. This is the Internet. We have the knowledge of thousands of lifetimes at our fingertips, and instead we argue with strangers.

GW also said that the Imperial Fist have the second proudest military record of the Imperium and have fought in some battles that are even more prestigest than the UMs. Some people good easily argue an even more impressive military history considering they were named the Emperor's Vanguard Legion and give supreme command over the Imperial forces during the HH and fought in the Siege of Terra. Ya, the IF have a pretty damn good history, so yes there is a reasonable debate that they are equal or at least very close.

The Black Templars might have six to ten times. The Space Wolves are guessed at maybe twice the size of infantry assets. It's doubtful they control significantly more fleet assets than a Chapter which controls shipbuilding manufacturing capability, lol. And the Space Wolves never said "feth" the Codex completely. They just didn't want to reorganize using the Codex guidelines, and their gene seed defect made using Codex recruitment and training methods impossible.

The Black Templars dont have a home planet, they and the Imperial Fist are completely space based. They must have reliable ship building capabilities or something considering they have the largest navy of all the Space Marine chapters being a Space based chapter.
The Space Wolves have 2 additional companies, refuse to follow codex tactics, codex organization, codex training, sounds like they said feth the codex to me.

The problem most people have is that they confuse two different ideas as a single idea.

Only the Ultramarines successors look at the Ultramarines Chapter Master as a spiritual liege. This makes sense. They're all Ultramarines in the end. If they had a primarch, (yo, I'll solve it), it would be Guilliman. Guilliman was the primarch of the Ultramarines. For the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines were Ultramarines. If the Black Library legion sizes are taken as canon, that's like 200-250 Chapters, lol. Even those who weren't Second Founding are taking their lineage mostly from either the Ultramarines directly, or from Second Founding chapters. So yeah, there will be a Mortifacators here and there. There's going to be a lot more Eagle Warriors or Marines Errant or Howling Griffons.
No it does not. Some successor COULD have chapter masters with more time on the field than the UM chapter master and these men consider this guy who is younger and less experienced to be their spiritual liege? No that does not make sense. RESPECT yes, to consider him a spiritual liege, is crazy because it doesnt make sense. You think the Crimson Fist give a rats ass who the Imperial Fist chapter master is? Of course they dont. Any success chapter of the UMs would worship Guilliman yes THAT makes sense. They come directly from him and his leadership. They do not come from the leadership of Calgar. Thats the problem here. Why would they have any loyalty to him?

Respect for the UMs, yes every chapter would think very highly of the UMs. Respect for the Primarch, ya every chapter would respect him and think highly of his work (Except BT and SWs who dont care about the Codex but do respect him and his abilites) To consider Calgor as a father figure of their chapters? No that simply makes no sense.

The other idea is that "They can never be Ultramarines". It's a stupid sentence, sure. But it has nothing to do with the spiritual liege statement. It's just typical silly codex bias. No worse than other stuff in other codex books. But it's the Ultramarines, who people hate irrationally. So it's a big deal, instead of a joke.

I actually like the Ultramarines. They have a proud military history and have accomplished a lot. They arnt my favorite but I like them a lot. I just dont like this silly stuff that everyone considers them to be the greatest thing sense the Emperor.

The bonds are strong between the originals and their second founding Chapters. Not necessarily between anyone much farther removed since they don't always know their lineage (even if it is 65% likely to be UM).

Since never. Whether a given Chapter wants to be the Ultramarines has little or nothing to do with whether Matt Ward says everyone does, since he actually has no creative control over my army.

Anyway my army's a Dark Angels successor, they don't often get along with the Ultramarines.