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Random person: "Hey, you guys could have gotten more money if you had done this, this and this."
The people on the project: [Busy working out budgets and hiring people so that the quarter of a million dollar project gets done.]

I mean, bang up job if you're trying to build up project manager or marketing experience (or trying to demonstrate those skills), but when did Dakka Dakka become a marketing or project management forum?

 solkan wrote:
Random person: "Hey, you guys could have gotten more money if you had done this, this and this."
The people on the project: [Busy working out budgets and hiring people so that the quarter of a million dollar project gets done.]

I mean, bang up job if you're trying to build up project manager or marketing experience (or trying to demonstrate those skills), but when did Dakka Dakka become a marketing or project management forum?

Or, perhaps, as many of the companies that make and market items that Dakkanauts purchase READ the forums, Buzz is offering insight into how a Kickstarter can be made more successful in the future.

Great summary. There's lots of gold in there.

 solkan wrote:
Random person: "Hey, you guys could have gotten more money if you had done this, this and this."
The people on the project: [Busy working out budgets and hiring people so that the quarter of a million dollar project gets done.]

I mean, bang up job if you're trying to build up project manager or marketing experience (or trying to demonstrate those skills), but when did Dakka Dakka become a marketing or project management forum?

Isn't it more like
Person1: hey we're consumers and would love to buy this from you if you could provide it?
Wyrd: stuff it, we're doing this our way

Since when was it considered good market research to ignore what consumers feel or want?

 Bat Manuel wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
However, they have seriously hurt their own reputation, at least with casual gamers and non-fans. Was that one of their goals?

Really?!? Do you have proof of this?

And why would casual games and non-fans even care or know of this? They are casual

I found out about this, and the extent of my knowledge of the game is pretty much "Heh, a gang of showgirls" and "They're switching to proper plastic without proper plastic prices?"

Like Chaos0xOmega, I basically walked in and saw something interesting, found out that it was only available bundled with a hundred dollars of books I didn't want, and walked back out.

Sining wrote:

 solkan wrote:
Random person: "Hey, you guys could have gotten more money if you had done this, this and this."
The people on the project: [Busy working out budgets and hiring people so that the quarter of a million dollar project gets done.]

I mean, bang up job if you're trying to build up project manager or marketing experience (or trying to demonstrate those skills), but when did Dakka Dakka become a marketing or project management forum?

Isn't it more like
Person1: hey we're consumers and would love to buy this from you if you could provide it?
Wyrd: stuff it, we're doing this our way

Since when was it considered good market research to ignore what consumers feel or want?

Is GW still making money hand over fist?

This next bit is to Bob, since he seemed to ignore my last post:

But seriously, Bob, most people that play these games don't go online and seek out to actively participate in websites like dakka, warseer, table top gaming news, board game geek, etc... The majority of gamers are completely fine with looking at what their flgs gets in, asking to see the latest release catalogs, or asking their flgs owner what's new, and what's coming out. Sure people go on the internet for painting videos and tutorials on how to base properly, or do wet blending, or what have you. The moment you start posting and actively participating online, you've expanded your gaming community to those beyond the walls of your store. As an active member of dakka, I see kickstarters being advertised and I go and say, "hey did you see this kickstarter?" and usually get blank stares. I knew more about the Dark Angels release from perusing the rumor thread than the owner of my flgs, why? because I'm actively searching for more war gaming.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
TtB seemed to be trapped between the world of miniature campaigns and RPGs: between the very easy to evaluate campaigns with physical pledges and easy to identify expectations, and the free-wheeling RPG world. To a certain extend this is most likely inevitable: Wyrd is, after all, primarily known as a maker of table-top miniatures, and their choice to use the setting of their most popular table top game doubtlessly was intended to capitalize on the existing fan base (which it did).

I think this was their issue. Cincy brought it up many times early on in the KS thread that Wyrd HAD to appeal to the skirmish gamer since they were basically selling Malifaux as a world and a brand new ruleset, with nothing to draw in the skirmish gamer, there was very little reason for people like Cincy to back the game. As it has been said, Cincy did want it to succeed, but was simply frustrated with the process. And for as many times as Cincy argued that Wyrd needed to appeal to the skirmish gamer, I would argue just as many times back that this was an RPG and should be backed on the merits of it's own product. Not a, "If you don't like it, don't back it" but a don't market it to table top gamers when it's not a table top. But in the end, Wyrd did sweeten the pot for those that might be interested in minis. Cyporiean, who simply backed a dollar so she could see the comments actually upped her pledge to the 125 level simply because of the minis she would be getting out of it and a pdf copy of the rules. So while Cincy was clearly in the right that the skirmish gamer should have been brought in, I am glad that changes were enacted to created a "sweeter" deal that allowed Wyrd to raise almost fifty thousand dollars in a day, thus improving the overall quality of the book and system.

I think one thing that should be mentioned (not sure if you did or not already), is that anyone looking to use Through the Breach and other kickstarters as a reference point, run it how you wish, but the one thing that I think no campaign can do without is PR from someone directly involved with the project. I'm not saying put an office assistant or unpaid intern on it, but put someone on PR duty that has an active hand in the direction of the game or product. Looking at Kingdom Death and Through the Breach, Adam Poots did all the updates and had a staggering amount), while Through the Breach had quite fewer updates. Ignoring quanitity, because that's not my point, Wyrd's updates significantly improved with the addition of Mack Martin taking over the updates. They were more energetic, they often revealed something about the game play, or we saw the sanity of a man slowly break in front of us.

Gameplay videos are always the best way to get someone interested, especially when trying to sell someone something over the internet. In a text based world, the use of visuals or even something that can speak to a person on the visual and auditory levels reaches to several key aspects of learning. The only way to make sure someone gets more interested is to provide something that they can interact with, thus hitting on a person's ability to learn through kinesthetic means.

Way I looked at this whole thing.

Wyrd tryed something different.
It didn't work.
Wyrd admitted this and changed their ways.

If they hadn't tried to change I would agree completly with you Buzz. Could they have done things differently and raised alot more money? Probably, but at the same time this project had alot more money raised in the first few days then most of the other big finishing KS's.

Regardless though the project finished around 240k making it one of the higher funded RPG KS yet.

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Way I looked at this whole thing.

Wyrd tryed something different.
It didn't work.
Wyrd admitted this and changed their ways.

Which is why it is such a great case to draw "lessons learned" from.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

Regardless though the project finished around 240k making it one of the higher funded RPG KS yet.

Does that invalidate the "lessons learned" aspect of this KS?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Way I looked at this whole thing.

Wyrd tryed something different.
It didn't work.
Wyrd admitted this and changed their ways.

Which is why it is such a great case to draw "lessons learned" from.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

Regardless though the project finished around 240k making it one of the higher funded RPG KS yet.

Does that invalidate the "lessons learned" aspect of this KS?

To a point I think it does.

It shows that you don't have to follow the current KS template to fund your project.
It also shows, and I think this is particuallary important, that not every company going to KS is or should be looking for a wildly successful project. Meeting your goal should be enough and wildly successful projects bring their own bag of headaches.

This whole "lessons learned" thing to me sounds more like "reasons why you shouldn't inovate on the evolving platform that is Kickstarter"

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Does that invalidate the "lessons learned" aspect of this KS?

To a point I think it does.

It shows that you don't have to follow the current KS template to fund your project.
It also shows, and I think this is particuallary important, that not every company going to KS is or should be looking for a wildly successful project. Meeting your goal should be enough and wildly successful projects bring their own bag of headaches.

This whole "lessons learned" thing to me sounds more like "reasons why you shouldn't inovate on the evolving platform that is Kickstarter"

To a degree you're correct. The problem isn't the low key Kickstarter, it's that a low key Kickstarter exacerbates the problem of limited edition products. A good Kickstarter might not be your cup of tea, but it shouldn't punish people for not pledging to buy something relatively unrelated that they don't want.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Sining wrote:

 solkan wrote:
Random person: "Hey, you guys could have gotten more money if you had done this, this and this."
The people on the project: [Busy working out budgets and hiring people so that the quarter of a million dollar project gets done.]

I mean, bang up job if you're trying to build up project manager or marketing experience (or trying to demonstrate those skills), but when did Dakka Dakka become a marketing or project management forum?

Isn't it more like
Person1: hey we're consumers and would love to buy this from you if you could provide it?
Wyrd: stuff it, we're doing this our way

Since when was it considered good market research to ignore what consumers feel or want?

Is GW still making money hand over fist?

Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

Sining wrote:
Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

You're missing the sarcasm in my post, sorry. And no, Wyrd isn't GW, but considering that GW still remains the Top non-collectible miniature game company, there is something they had to have done right. Until I see that Hordes has beaten Warhammer Fantasy in ICv2's Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Game for the end of 2012, I'll still go on believing that GW is top dog in the minis bizz, as much as I dislike their games...

Well, I think we can validate the early backer rewards issue with another current example. Pathfinder Online has a massive install base (see it's early numbers), but the real point of contention I see brought up frequently in their comments and in forums is their Daily Deals program.

Essentially, every day you didn't back, you miss out on 1 item that were giving to every backer getting the game. These items are cosmetic in the game, but they are tradable, and thus have value in the in-game market. They were promoted as being exclusive rewards that could not be crafted in-game, so I assume they will be limited to this project. Nobody wants to feel like they missed something, and that is precisely what this program did. As a retraction from this, they later added what they called the "Shieldmate" system. If you could find someone who pledged earlier than yourself, you could link your account to theirs as a "Shieldmate" and get all of their Daily Deals! A neat system, but it still relies on a very limited number of people, but it was a good attempt at a fix.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Sining wrote:
Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

You're missing the sarcasm in my post, sorry. And no, Wyrd isn't GW, but considering that GW still remains the Top non-collectible miniature game company, there is something they had to have done right. Until I see that Hordes has beaten Warhammer Fantasy in ICv2's Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Game for the end of 2012, I'll still go on believing that GW is top dog in the minis bizz, as much as I dislike their games...

I'll rephrase it, can wyrd afford to adopt GWs attitude? Obviously you brought up GW for an example but it's like comparing Apple and LG. One can afford to rest on their laurels while the other can't. I'm fairly certain you know this but you still gave that misleading example anyway. So I'm not really sure what your point was with that

Plus remaining top doesn't mean they're not losing market share.

Sining wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Sining wrote:
Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

You're missing the sarcasm in my post, sorry. And no, Wyrd isn't GW, but considering that GW still remains the Top non-collectible miniature game company, there is something they had to have done right. Until I see that Hordes has beaten Warhammer Fantasy in ICv2's Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Game for the end of 2012, I'll still go on believing that GW is top dog in the minis bizz, as much as I dislike their games...

I'll rephrase it, can wyrd afford to adopt GWs attitude? Obviously you brought up GW for an example but it's like comparing Apple and LG. One can afford to rest on their laurels while the other can't. I'm fairly certain you know this but you still gave that misleading example anyway. So I'm not really sure what your point was with that

Plus remaining top doesn't mean they're not losing market share.

Actually LG is doing pretty good, and develop completely different technologies from Apple. LG's main focus is TV and other such things. Apple is computers and mobile devices (where they both cross over). LG's stock isn't worth anywhere near what Apple's is worth, but considering they've been on a 6 month rise over the past 6 months (after a tough August), LG's stock is on the rise, which the same can't be said for Apple, which has been on a steady decline since the middle of September, but I get your point.

And neither gaming company can afford to rest on their laurels, that's why you continually see major releases form each company every year. GW released 6th ed and 2 codices in the past 7 months, introduced new sculpts for their games including terrain, and a campaign book. Wyrd has released the next expansion of their game (Storm of Shadows), made the switch to plastics, released the new rules for Puppet Wars (with the re-release of Puppet Wars on the horizon), released new terraclips, their third game (Evil Baby Orphanage goes officially on sale at the end of the month), and an official, company run vassal module. So neither company is resting on their laurels. GW has taken the approach of, "here is our world it is vast and rarely changes, merely updates". Wyrd has said, "here is our world, it is small and the story is progressing" and comes out with new mechanics and new fluff. Both appeal to different types of gamers, my point was that GW, with all of the flack they get is still king of the playground, and I won't consider them to be losing market share as long as their next closest competitor's second game (Hordes) is out sold by GW's second game (fantasy). And if you wish to determine GW's market share by their stock quote, it's been pretty even for the past 6 months. There is a slight downturn with the onset of 2013, but that will probably be offset by the release of Dark Angels.

Alf--

I actually agree that had they done this strictly as an RPG KS, that would have been fine with me, and I may have shied away simply because, while I'd love to read the book, RPGs aren't completely my thing.

They got all that mixed up when they started offering exclusives that were first made for the skirmish game. Had they done the multi-part minis and perhaps an NPC miniature that didn't translate over to the skirmish game, I'd have been fine. But when one of their core selling points for the KS was models used for the skirmish game...well, it's hard to divorce the two then

I'm fortunate that I have both Santana and Miss Terious. The Hannah model concerns me a bit because I didn't back. My sincerest hope is that she isn't unequivocally better than the retail sculpt (see, Chompy Bits, Lord) or is avaialble through othere channels that are aimed at the TTG crowd.

At the very least, I think Wyrd owes Mack a nice Ruth's Chris steak dinner or something for the way he took up the flag and effectively saved the KS from going into a black spin. At the very least, I hope this KS makes them realize the importance of having someone fully engaged in the project.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Sining wrote:
Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

Until I see that Hordes has beaten Warhammer Fantasy in ICv2's Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Game for the end of 2012, I'll still go on believing that GW is top dog in the minis bizz, as much as I dislike their games...

It actually did. Warmachine and Hordes are the same game, and warmahordes beat Warhammer Fantasy without the Hordes sales added in (making Malifaux number 4). I have no idea why they try and break them up by sub systems. Its like breaking up 40k into 40k and Tau...

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Sining wrote:
Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

Until I see that Hordes has beaten Warhammer Fantasy in ICv2's Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Game for the end of 2012, I'll still go on believing that GW is top dog in the minis bizz, as much as I dislike their games...

It actually did. Warmachine and Hordes are the same game, and warmahordes beat Warhammer Fantasy without the Hordes sales added in (making Malifaux number 4). I have no idea why they try and break them up by sub systems. Its like breaking up 40k into 40k and Tau...

I realize that, I play Warmahordes but the games are different enough to warrant being different lines. It's not like breaking 40k into 40k and Tau. That would be Breaking Warmachine into WM and Cygnar. Until Hordes ON ITS OWN beats Warhammer Fantasy, there is on valid argument that GW is losing market share, considering that the top "4" slots have been the same for at least the past three years. With Malifaux beating out Flames of War in 2011.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:


It actually did. Warmachine and Hordes are the same game, and warmahordes beat Warhammer Fantasy without the Hordes sales added in (making Malifaux number 4). I have no idea why they try and break them up by sub systems. Its like breaking up 40k into 40k and Tau...

whaaaaa? Warmachines and Hordes are not the same game.

nkelsch wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:


It actually did. Warmachine and Hordes are the same game, and warmahordes beat Warhammer Fantasy without the Hordes sales added in (making Malifaux number 4). I have no idea why they try and break them up by sub systems. Its like breaking up 40k into 40k and Tau...

whaaaaa? Warmachines and Hordes are not the same game.

They are interchangable and meant to be played together, and have similar mechanics, owned by the same company, and usually when one side gets something, the other side gets it too, but I agree, they are not the same game.

Excellent write up! I enjoyed reading this.

Exalted.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Sining wrote:
Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

Until I see that Hordes has beaten Warhammer Fantasy in ICv2's Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Game for the end of 2012, I'll still go on believing that GW is top dog in the minis bizz, as much as I dislike their games...

It actually did. Warmachine and Hordes are the same game, and warmahordes beat Warhammer Fantasy without the Hordes sales added in (making Malifaux number 4). I have no idea why they try and break them up by sub systems. Its like breaking up 40k into 40k and Tau...

I realize that, I play Warmahordes but the games are different enough to warrant being different lines.

No they aren't. Same base rules, and they're compatible. You can play either in most tournaments.You can have hordes units in warmachine, and vice verse. Its the same game. Trying to break them apart IS like splitting off Space Marines from, I dunno, Demons, because some units use a few different rules.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Sining wrote:
Is wyrd GW? And isn't GW also losing market share?

Until I see that Hordes has beaten Warhammer Fantasy in ICv2's Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Game for the end of 2012, I'll still go on believing that GW is top dog in the minis bizz, as much as I dislike their games...

It actually did. Warmachine and Hordes are the same game, and warmahordes beat Warhammer Fantasy without the Hordes sales added in (making Malifaux number 4). I have no idea why they try and break them up by sub systems. Its like breaking up 40k into 40k and Tau...

I realize that, I play Warmahordes but the games are different enough to warrant being different lines.

No they aren't. Same base rules, and they're compatible. You can play either in most tournaments.You can have hordes units in warmachine, and vice verse. Its the same game. Trying to break them apart IS like splitting off Space Marines from, I dunno, Demons, because some units use a few different rules.

Except that I can break Hordes away from Warmachine and still a fully functioning game, because they're both designed to operate on their own! Yes you can intermix them, I know I play Hordes in a Warmachine scene, and have warmachine armies just like my friends have hordes armies. The problem with your example is that you can't take Tau out of 40k and have a functioning game, and your second example makes no sense because you still need the 40k rules to play with those codices and specific rules. Now can we please get on with discussion how Through the Breach can serve as a cautionary tale to those that might be wanting to do their own kickstarters?

So.....uh oh.

EBO going to be shipping 3 months late because of that plushie. Yikes.....

 cincydooley wrote:
So.....uh oh.

EBO going to be shipping 3 months late because of that plushie. Yikes.....

Huh? I recognize most of those words, but that meant nothing to me...

 cincydooley wrote:
So.....uh oh.

EBO going to be shipping 3 months late because of that plushie. Yikes.....

EBO's stretch stuff is shipping late, the main game should have already gotten to you

And yeah, Wyrd did plushies with Evil Baby Orphanage, and the WIP looks pretty bad, but at least we know who it is now. It does suck that it's shipping late :(

I feel like this is something they should have announced sooner than 2 weeks before the due date.

 Alfndrate wrote:

This next bit is to Bob, since he seemed to ignore my last post:

You mean this gem?

To be fair, the casual gamer and non-fans tend to stay off the internet in such things. We're fans enough of wargaming to actively seek it outside of our local community.

Not only did I discuss the casual gamers in my reply to Bat Manuel, which covers your comment in its scope, but I was kind of doing you a favor by not reminding people of it.

See, you kind of missed the...I don't want to say "subtext" so I'll just call it the "obvious". My comment about the TtB KICKSTARTER, that THING ON THE INTERNET affecting casual gamers implies that we are discussing the subset of casual gamers ON THE INTERNET who were AWARE THAT THE KS EXITED and were able to INTERACT WITH IT IN ANY WAY AT ALL EVER. In other words, I'm not sure how you interpreted my comment to refer to gamers who weren't on the internet. Did you think I was implying the KS had Cthulhu-like abilities to affect the dreams of artists and prey on their minds terribly? Did you think I meant the KS pulled a Fire Upon the Deep and overwrote enough people for significant memetic penetration into society? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Me: This KS really turned off casual gamers who might have pledged.

You: Nuh Uh. It had no effect on gamers who were totally unaware of the KS existence and thus could never have pledged anyway. Also, Martians (I assume you are being that inclusive).

Kepp in mind that we have already heard from a few self-described casual gamers IN THIS THREAD, all of whom described a lack of interest in the TtB Kickstarter. Which demonstrates my point that Wyrd's Kickstarter failed to capitalize on one of the biggest benefits of a KS campaign: bringing in new customers.

Now, I also stated that it ruined Wyrd's reputation, and so far no one has piped in with much support for that beyond "It didn't have a reputation to ruin with me", so I will concede that particular point.

But seriously, Bob, most people that play these games don't go online and seek out to actively participate in websites like dakka, warseer, table top gaming news, board game geek, etc... The majority of gamers are completely fine with looking at what their flgs gets in, asking to see the latest release catalogs, or asking their flgs owner what's new, and what's coming out.

Clearly these are the casual gamers that the KS was meant to grab. Obviously I was stating that the internet-only thing was having an effect on non-internet capable people . You have destroyed my argument by pointing out that people who don't go online didn't participate in the online thing. I couldn't possibly have assumed that you would understand that we are talking about people in the effect cone of the Kickstarter. Also, Albanian goat farmers.

Sure people go on the internet for painting videos and tutorials on how to base properly, or do wet blending, or what have you. The moment you start posting and actively participating online, you've expanded your gaming community to those beyond the walls of your store. As an active member of dakka, I see kickstarters being advertised and I go and say, "hey did you see this kickstarter?" and usually get blank stares. I knew more about the Dark Angels release from perusing the rumor thread than the owner of my flgs, why? because I'm actively searching for more war gaming.

So, what do you call someone who games, who is not particularly loyal to any one game or who is willing to pick up new games and try them out, and who also posts on message boards? Is that an esquilax? I ask because "casual gamer" clearly does not describe such a creature.

we saw the sanity of a man slowly break in front of us.

OK, we're friends again. This sums up everything I loved (in a bad way) in TtB soooo much.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Now, I also stated that it ruined Wyrd's reputation, and so far no one has piped in with much support for that beyond "It didn't have a reputation to ruin with me", so I will concede that particular point.

Saying it ruined thier rep is a bit much, but the attitude of the company added to the dissatisfied feeling I've had about them for a while.

Bob, between the simple grammatical mistakes, the underhanded conspiracy comments, and the general tone of the posts between you and I, I think we're done here. Besides, it's clear you and I have different definitions of casual gamer and until we agree on that, we'll never agree in this argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
I feel like this is something they should have announced sooner than 2 weeks before the due date.

Yeah, though to be fair, I think you and I were talking with Mack a bit in the TtB thread and asked about the plushies for EBO, and he said that they weren't in yet. It could be that he simply wasn't aware of that aspect of things since EBO wasn't his baby, it was Justin's. Though they do work together, I'm sure the topic of EBO came up. I understand they pay a lot in shipping overseas, but I almost think that with this blunder that they should send out everything else, and send the plushies last. I'm also very surprised we haven't seen digital sculpts of the minis coming with it.