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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 18:16:30
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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Compel wrote:Fought against Deathwing tonight with my Blood Angels.
Surprisingly not that killy, I found... Though I'm pretty sure my opponent hadn't read the book entirely.
One thing though, they are DAMN hard to actually put down. At one point I had about 25 assault marines in close combat with half a Knight squad and a command squad. I just bounced off them entirely.
This.
This is the whole point of Deathwing. They are not killy, they don't mince tons of troops. They are the immovable object that armies pour huge amounts of resources into but only make a scratch.
I have used my DW twice under the new dex now and I've noticed a few things.
Command Squad: Too expensive for what they bring
You need to build around their tricks. Adding Ezekiel is good but then it's a near 750 point unit with Belial and an LRC.
I tried a large unit of Deathwing with two cml and a mix of th/ ss and normal guys and they just couldn't be killed. They provided a good distraction on T1 when they deep struck in.
Deathwing LRC + Techmarine: DWLRC are tough to kill anyway, but adding a Techmarine just makes people cry. That repair ability kept my LRC going for ages.
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Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 18:36:48
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Revving Ravenwing Biker
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Compel wrote:It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."
I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!
But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 19:13:51
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Magister187 wrote: Compel wrote:It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."
I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!
But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.
Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/15 19:14:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 19:29:08
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Focused Fire Warrior
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tidalwake wrote:Magister187 wrote: Compel wrote:It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."
I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!
But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.
Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.
At the same time though, a units majority toughness is more important than a models individual toughness. In which case the rad grenade has to hit half the models in the unit to have any effect (in most cases), if it succeeds then the unit now has -1 majority toughness.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 19:44:32
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
DC Metro
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Except that it's every model in a unit that was hit takes the penealty, so the majority toughness of the unit does go down.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 20:08:05
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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spears wrote:tidalwake wrote:Magister187 wrote: Compel wrote:It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."
I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!
But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.
Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.
At the same time though, a units majority toughness is more important than a models individual toughness. In which case the rad grenade has to hit half the models in the unit to have any effect (in most cases), if it succeeds then the unit now has -1 majority toughness.
To me you guys are stretching really far to misread the rule. To my eyes it works just like a sniper rifle pinning. If a model takes a wound from a sniper rifle the unit checks for pinning. Similarly if a model suffers a hit from a Rad grenade the unit suffers a -1T, but that would not apply to the rest of the Rad launchers unit since all shots are resolved at the same time.
The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 20:31:49
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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andystache wrote:
The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado
Wait?
So, you saying you could spam out Typhoon ML? Like 3 units of 3 speeds /w Tyhoon ML? Schweet!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/15 20:33:27
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 20:34:32
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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whembly wrote:andystache wrote:
The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado
Wait?
So, you saying you could spam out Typhoon ML? Like 3 units of 3 speeds /w Tyhoon ML? Schweet!
I'm saying in one force org you can drop 21 Landspeeder Typhoons! It's ridiculously glorious. Glass cannon like no one's business, but that first turn you fire is glorious
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 20:43:22
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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And the typhoon is still 75 pts like the old dex, I'm gonna rock 2 units of 4 with a shroud to back it up, thats 16 kraks and 24 heavy bolter shots with 4+ cover zipping around, that should handle my anti horde nicely
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 20:46:48
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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andystache wrote: whembly wrote:andystache wrote:
The biggest improvement I've seen over the old codex is in the base Landspeeders. The restriction of 1 Typhoon per squadron is gone, the full Tornado options are available (and the AC equipped is 15 less), and you can now take a base, Typhoon, or Tornado with the RAS instead of being forced to take a 100 point AC Tornado
Wait?
So, you saying you could spam out Typhoon ML? Like 3 units of 3 speeds /w Tyhoon ML? Schweet!
I'm saying in one force org you can drop 21 Landspeeder Typhoons! It's ridiculously glorious. Glass cannon like no one's business, but that first turn you fire is glorious
Dayum!
I used to have 3 separate speeders with ML + Belil/Chappy with rest Termies... which worked really well.
I'd be happy with 9 speeders!
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 21:01:03
Subject: Re:Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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One thing I'm really liking about this new codex is that the Iron Wing is a viable army list. Yes we're paying 5pts more for a BolterBack, but the TLLC version is 10pts cheaper and we now have TLAC as another option. Roll that in with nifty wargear and Techmarines finally being ICs makes a mobile DA army (that's not bikes) not only workable, but down right mean. Throw in a couple of Typhoons and your opponent is stuck having to split fire or leave his flank open to your missiles
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 21:11:40
Subject: Re:Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Revving Ravenwing Biker
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Yeah, mech lists seem completely viable for DA too. Really, they seem to be able to field any sort of force required. Very cool.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 21:28:40
Subject: Re:Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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andystache wrote:One thing I'm really liking about this new codex is that the Iron Wing is a viable army list. Yes we're paying 5pts more for a BolterBack, but the TLLC version is 10pts cheaper and we now have TLAC as another option. Roll that in with nifty wargear and Techmarines finally being ICs makes a mobile DA army (that's not bikes) not only workable, but down right mean. Throw in a couple of Typhoons and your opponent is stuck having to split fire or leave his flank open to your missiles
It's actually 15pts more for a bolterback (quite frustrating) 10-pts cheaper for a Flamerback, and every other option is the same as C: SM since the upgrade is 15pts cheaper but the base cost is 15pts higher.
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Inquisitor Jex wrote:Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote:So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 21:53:41
Subject: Re:Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Coyote81 wrote:andystache wrote:One thing I'm really liking about this new codex is that the Iron Wing is a viable army list. Yes we're paying 5pts more for a BolterBack, but the TLLC version is 10pts cheaper and we now have TLAC as another option. Roll that in with nifty wargear and Techmarines finally being ICs makes a mobile DA army (that's not bikes) not only workable, but down right mean. Throw in a couple of Typhoons and your opponent is stuck having to split fire or leave his flank open to your missiles
It's actually 15pts more for a bolterback (quite frustrating) 10-pts cheaper for a Flamerback, and every other option is the same as C: SM since the upgrade is 15pts cheaper but the base cost is 15pts higher.
I've been playing out of the 4th Ed DA codex, so for me the BolterBack is only 5 points more and I've been limited to the TLLC as the only upgrade. I purposely avoided using C: SM for anything to keep a "pure DA" list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 21:54:31
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
West Chester, PA
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I find the more expensive bolterback to be a good idea. If they hadn't, it would be 5 man Tac squads with a heavy weapon and razorbacks all over the place. Not that its a bad thing, but I for one don't want my army to enable those sorts of shenanigans.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:07:00
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster
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spears wrote:tidalwake wrote:Magister187 wrote: Compel wrote:It is strange, cause it could just have been easily been: "A unit hit by one or more rad shells..."
I just find it crazy, I mean, it's normal for GW to be fairly unclear about stuff but since 6th edition was released, the confusion has reached a whole new level. - And the typos!
But "units" don't have toughness. I think the clearest reading is that "each model, in the unit hit by one or more rad shells,..." Obviously I added the commas to make it read correctly, but it makes the most sense by a pretty huge margin imo.
Right, unit's don't have a toughness so each model in the unit hit by the grenade has its' toughness lowered. If the unit was hit, each model in that unit loses 1 toughness. That's how I read it anyway.
At the same time though, a units majority toughness is more important than a models individual toughness. In which case the rad grenade has to hit half the models in the unit to have any effect (in most cases), if it succeeds then the unit now has -1 majority toughness.
I read it as the toughness of each model is lowered by one. So the majority toughness is obviously lowered, but when you allocate wounds to characters, their T is lower too,.
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I represent the Surrey Spartans gaming group. Check us out and feel free to come along for a game! https://www.facebook.com/groups/425689674233804/
Tzeentch Daemons 2000pts
Kabal of the Sundering Strike 2500pts
Eldar Corsairs 750pts
400pts Corregidor/Nomads
300pts Yu Jing
200pts+ each of Imperial and Rebel fleets for X-Wing
A Terran Alliance and Dindrenzi Fleet for Firestorm Armada
A Necromunda Goliath gang and Spyrer gang |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:12:26
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Stormin' Stompa
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Mandor wrote:Steelmage99 wrote:I didn't even occur to me for a second that it could be read as affecting the entire unit.
Well, gotta wait for an FAQ then.
It is kind of confusing. But if it would not affect the entire unit, wouldn't it just say: "Rad Charge: Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the turn."
Without trying to sound like a douce I could point out that had the Designers intended the entire unit to be affected they could have written; "Rad Charge. Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers.....".
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"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:26:29
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Fixture of Dakka
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Steelmage99 wrote:
Without trying to sound like a douce I could point out that had the Designers intended the entire unit to be affected they could have written; "Rad Charge. Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers.....".
As already pointed out, units don't have Toughness, so you're amendment makes no sense.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:45:15
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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DarknessEternal wrote:Steelmage99 wrote:
Without trying to sound like a douce I could point out that had the Designers intended the entire unit to be affected they could have written; "Rad Charge. Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers.....".
As already pointed out, units don't have Toughness, so you're amendment makes no sense.
Units don't have Leadership values either, but they still take Pinning, Tank Shock, and other tests based off of the leadership of the models that comprise the unit. The rule is written the way it is so that if the rad grenade misses the unit then they're not affected. If any model is hit then the unit suffers a -1T.
It's similar to the Pile-In Move clarification on the Displacement Field, if you scatter the full 6" away from the combat it is possible that your IC breaks from the squad before Assault results are determined. Math as so:
IC scatters 6", Piles In 3", but ends move 3" inches away from original unit and not in contact with enemy. IC is no longer squadded and not involved in resolution.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:46:47
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.
I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:51:02
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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milo wrote:A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.
I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.
Is it called the Wrath? I know there's a line comparing it to the Wrath (being Azrael's dakka of choice)
EDIT: Anyone have thoughts on running Cypher style DAs? All the unnamed ICs can take plasma & bolt pistol, so can vets. I've been rolling around the idea of a vet squad with 3 PPs, 2 PGs with Lib w/divination PP/ BP load out. Lots of shots within 12 rerolling to make Gets Hot less painful
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/15 22:53:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:51:04
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Yep very clear... Wait for the rules lawers though. They can twist anything
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 22:58:59
Subject: Re:Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Revving Ravenwing Biker
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Also, the rad and stasis grenades become pointless, rather than reduce the toughness of 1 maybe 2 models, you could just kill them with twin linked rapid firing plasma.
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-Any terrain containing Sly Marbo is dangerous terrain.
-Sly Marbo once played an objective mission just to see what it was like to not meet every victory condition on his own.
-Sly Marbo bought a third edition rulebook just to play meat grinder as the attacker.
-Marbo doesn't need an Eldar farseer as an ally; his enemies are already doomed
-Sly Marbo was originally armed with a power weapon, but he dropped it while assaulting a space marine command squad just so his enemies could feel pain
-Sly Marbo still attacks the front armor value in assault, for pity's sake. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 23:02:04
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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If you only have it work on the models that the template actually hits, then the weapons are totally useless because when shooting and in close combat(Unless attacking a IC) you use majority toughness, and WS.
Clearly it says that if any models are hit, the whole unit suffers.
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Inquisitor Jex wrote:Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote:So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 23:10:25
Subject: Re:Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator
California
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I can't believe any one can read that rule as anything other than the entire unit getting -1 toughness until end of turn. There are typos and confusing things in the new dex, but that sure as heck ain't one of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 23:16:11
Subject: Re:Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Sister Vastly Superior
canada
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The one reason why it may be worded the way it is would be to make sure ICs that join a unit are clearly impacted as well
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They say you never appreciate what you have until it is gone. I fear that isn't true for your mind. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 23:33:31
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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andystache wrote:milo wrote:A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.
I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.
Is it called the Wrath? I know there's a line comparing it to the Wrath (being Azrael's dakka of choice)
EDIT: Anyone have thoughts on running Cypher style DAs? All the unnamed ICs can take plasma & bolt pistol, so can vets. I've been rolling around the idea of a vet squad with 3 PPs, 2 PGs with Lib w/divination PP/ BP load out. Lots of shots within 12 rerolling to make Gets Hot less painful
I'm planning a Fallen army after I finish my Deathwing, but I'm only going to use units and weapons that would have been around just after the Heresy.
I'm so glad that the dex is so flexible that it is possible to do this.
My fallen will be loyal for the most part. Marines that wish to repent by serving the Emperor in penance for what they did and I'm going with the tale that Cypher has been recruiting them from throughout the Galaxy.
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Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 23:35:08
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Played against a ravenwing army tonight, with salvo banner, its harsh very harsh! he was also sporting sammael and the darkshroud land speeder.
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40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/15 23:37:52
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Puscifer wrote:andystache wrote:milo wrote:A pretty minor typo: the Lion's Roar is also referred to as the Lion's Wrath in the description.
I don't find the rad shell rule vague. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells..." That's pretty clear.
Is it called the Wrath? I know there's a line comparing it to the Wrath (being Azrael's dakka of choice)
EDIT: Anyone have thoughts on running Cypher style DAs? All the unnamed ICs can take plasma & bolt pistol, so can vets. I've been rolling around the idea of a vet squad with 3 PPs, 2 PGs with Lib w/divination PP/ BP load out. Lots of shots within 12 rerolling to make Gets Hot less painful
I'm planning a Fallen army after I finish my Deathwing, but I'm only going to use units and weapons that would have been around just after the Heresy.
I'm so glad that the dex is so flexible that it is possible to do this.
My fallen will be loyal for the most part. Marines that wish to repent by serving the Emperor in penance for what they did and I'm going with the tale that Cypher has been recruiting them from throughout the Galaxy.
I was really hoping we'd get some clarity on this one with the new 'dex. With Ravenwing out we know that Cypher
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/15 23:38:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/16 00:07:13
Subject: Dark angels tactics+ first impression
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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I'm going with the protecting it from the Fallen.
I'm one of those who believe that the Lion was the traitor.
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Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right. |
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