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Inner circle makes them fearless.

 whembly wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

True... but the point is to spam 'em out. If that's the goal, Landspeeder is the way to go...

Just saying.

I don't think so... but perhaps 1 or 2 speeder squads of 5 with a shroud.... Field them with 3 or 4 typhoons and 1 or 2 cheap speeders. The combined cover saves with a couple of expendable cheap speeders might be fine.

DAaddict wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
You're talking about something like the equivalent of 4 Missile Launchers and 2 HB on 2 Land Speeders versus 5 Missile Launchers on the Long Fangs (spare 10p in favor of the LF).

True... but the point is to spam 'em out. If that's the goal, Landspeeder is the way to go...

Just saying.

I don't think so... but perhaps 1 or 2 speeder squads of 5 with a shroud.... Field them with 3 or 4 typhoons and 1 or 2 cheap speeders. The combined cover saves with a couple of expendable cheap speeders might be fine.

True... but, your YMMV with whichever variant used.

THe key point I want to point out is that in 6th Ed, you can PRE-MEASURE. What this means is that typhoons w/ cyclone ML having a 48" range... you can play the range game if you know your opponent's range as well.

Those characters have Inner Circle, which means those characters have Fearless, which overrides ATSKNF.

For those of you who aren't using Allies, how are you dealing with enemy flyers?

I am wondering how the Terminators are doing with the Plasma Cannons? I've got mine, but I have not had a chance to use them.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am wondering how the Terminators are doing with the Plasma Cannons? I've got mine, but I have not had a chance to use them.

It's more of a giddy how fun will this be thing. They do okay but small blast is easy to work around. So they are fun good choices but not optimal ones.

I just got my codex in, so I wrote a bit of my first impressions here http://www.3forint.com/2013/01/codex-da-first-impressions.html
It's a bit long to copy paste, but I am a fan.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am wondering how the Terminators are doing with the Plasma Cannons? I've got mine, but I have not had a chance to use them.

I'd leave those to the Devs and Tacs personally.

whoadirty wrote:
For those of you who aren't using Allies, how are you dealing with enemy flyers?

Nephilim Jetfighter. I loved the model from first sight, preordered it and I be damned if I ain't gonna use it. And I think it's unfair that people complain that it's not a good anti-air flyer. Well obviously if you compare it to the ridiculously undercosted and overpowered Vendetta!

It doesn't even need to be a comparison, you just look at it's loadout and see what it will be attempting to take down and you see the big problem. One TL Lascannon, and a bunch of S6 shots are going to be only a small threat to something like a vendetta/stormraven/helldrake. Those S6 shots are even less of a threat since they are not even twin linked.

 Gar'Ang wrote:

whoadirty wrote:
For those of you who aren't using Allies, how are you dealing with enemy flyers?

Nephilim Jetfighter. I loved the model from first sight, preordered it and I be damned if I ain't gonna use it. And I think it's unfair that people complain that it's not a good anti-air flyer. Well obviously if you compare it to the ridiculously undercosted and overpowered Vendetta!

Thing people seemed to forget instantly is that by default it has a Twin-Linked Las Cannon. A good roll will kill another flier instantly but if not, or using the Avenger you can still ping any AV12 to death, just a question if you can do it fast enough. Anything AV11 or under though you can get up to 10 shots on so while a pricy model (in dollars and points!) it can do the job and for a few more points toss down a defense line for more coverage.

Only gotten to use mine once so far though and nothing in that game bothered to shoot at it at all. I guess some people don't like rolling for 6's.

Coyote81 wrote:
It doesn't even need to be a comparison, you just look at it's loadout and see what it will be attempting to take down and you see the big problem. One TL Lascannon, and a bunch of S6 shots are going to be only a small threat to something like a vendetta/stormraven/helldrake. Those S6 shots are even less of a threat since they are not even twin linked.

I'd beg to differ. Dakka doesn't seem to be a fan, but I stand by weight of fire. There aren't many things that can pump out 7 S6 shots per turn and there's the 3 S5 shots if you're looking at AV lower than 12. There's also something to be said for the Neph as an aerial denial unit. With rifleman dreads or dev/tac with flakk you can give the opponent the choice of presenting rear armor to the Neph or the flakk and that's not a good place for any flyer to be

andystache wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
It doesn't even need to be a comparison, you just look at it's loadout and see what it will be attempting to take down and you see the big problem. One TL Lascannon, and a bunch of S6 shots are going to be only a small threat to something like a vendetta/stormraven/helldrake. Those S6 shots are even less of a threat since they are not even twin linked.

I'd beg to differ. Dakka doesn't seem to be a fan, but I stand by weight of fire. There aren't many things that can pump out 7 S6 shots per turn and there's the 3 S5 shots if you're looking at AV lower than 12. There's also something to be said for the Neph as an aerial denial unit. With rifleman dreads or dev/tac with flakk you can give the opponent the choice of presenting rear armor to the Neph or the flakk and that's not a good place for any flyer to be

I don't think you are being objective when looking at the unit. It isnt a good way to bring down AV12. I dont care if its 10 S6 shots, it still isnt particularly efficient. I've seen dakkajets try to take down Vendettas and Heldrakes, it doesn't work out too well. The Nephilim is a failure and though you may be able to field it without having a terrible, awful list, you shouldn't try to make it out to be something it isn't, namely "good" or efficient.

I agree that the Nephilim is horrible in an AA role. A single TL Las-cannon isn't likely to do much against a vehicle (even if we simplify and assume that twin linking BS4 generates an automatic hit, a Lascannon only has a 66% chance to remove a single hull point and a 16.7% chance of killing an AV12 target outright), and at BS4 it takes an average of 27 S6 shots to bring down a 3HP AV12 target (2/3rds hit to give you 18 hits, of which a 6th glance giving you 3 glances), making it even worse against a Helldrake or if the enemy Jinks. If the Nephilim had Vector Dancer so that it could get behind enemy fliers more easily then there might be an argument for it, but as it is the Nephilim does not perform against the two best fliers in the game (the Vendetta and the Helldrake). It's performance is better against AV11 fliers, but still limited. All in all, the Storm Talon is a better Air Superiority Fighter.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I refuse to call a model rubbish because it's outclassed by 1-3 other models in its type. I like to think that I build combined force DA lists in a TAC format. To me the Neph with the mega bolter is too versatile to not include in a TAC list.

If you field a Heldrake or Vendetta I will fire at it with the wonderful AA that comes on a Razorback or Dread and send the Neph after your ground troops.

Having played a ridiculous number of games against DE I'm used to all of my opponents vehicles having a 5++ save so the thought that the enemy might Jink doesn't bother me in the least.

RegalPhantom wrote:
I agree that the Nephilim is horrible in an AA role. A single TL Las-cannon isn't likely to do much against a vehicle (even if we simplify and assume that twin linking BS4 generates an automatic hit, a Lascannon only has a 66% chance to remove a single hull point and a 16.7% chance of killing an AV12 target outright), and at BS4 it takes an average of 27 S6 shots to bring down a 3HP AV12 target (2/3rds hit to give you 18 hits, of which a 6th glance giving you 3 glances), making it even worse against a Helldrake or if the enemy Jinks. If the Nephilim had Vector Dancer so that it could get behind enemy fliers more easily then there might be an argument for it, but as it is the Nephilim does not perform against the two best fliers in the game (the Vendetta and the Helldrake). It's performance is better against AV11 fliers, but still limited. All in all, the Storm Talon is a better Air Superiority Fighter.

What about the 2 in 6 chance of getting an imobilising hit on a Flyer?

Immobs on a flyer are not a big deal. Especially if its something like a hell drake or vendetta, as it can choose the 18 inch option knowing that you may get an immob easier.

The issue is the cost. It costs more than a hell drake, but the hell drake with the autocannon is better versus flyers that are av 11 or 12. Whats worse, there is no vector strike, no invuln, no reroll to pen, and finally, no one even takes the hell drake with autocannons!

Sending up a poor excuse for a flyer because it is all you have does not apply in 40k. You pay for everything you take. The 180 for the flyer would get you 180 points of other stuff that is either more efficient at killing flyers than the jetfighter, or much much better at killing targets on the ground than the jetfighter.

The dark talon in my opinion has a LOT to offer for dark angels, and the reason is that it is not trying to compete head on with other things. Instead, it is supporting your units on the ground and bringing very unique force multipliers. Blind is a great rule, init test or become ws1/bs1 for 2 player turns? In an army with mostly ws 4 models, this means that you can either take the bite out of close combat units or greatly weaken an enemies shooting.

The bomb is straight up devastating to ws3 or init 3 models. As far as I have seen, for your assault phase the enemy simply can not attack at all. Hit a 50 man guard blob with the bomb, charge in 3 bikes, and the ws0 init 0 guard can not even attack! Then in their turn they are locked in combat with a single small unit, which they can kill, but you stole an entire turn from them with the bomb and a cheap throwaway unit.

Anyway, for plasmacannons on terminators, I dislike the application but like the concept. Consider that the terminator cyclone is a 2 shot launcher, and the assault cannon is a greatly superior heavy bolter that rivals the las cannon against vehicles, and it is clear to me that a terminator weapon should be about 2 times as good as a tactical equivalent. Instead, a terminator plasma cannon versus a 5 man tactical plasma cannon is the exact same thing, you just pay a huge points premium on the terminators. Thats not to say that plasma cannons are not good, its just that other units do plasma so, SO much better as a weapon system that you should look to the terminators for their more unique options.

andystache wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I refuse to call a model rubbish because it's outclassed by 1-3 other models in its type. I like to think that I build combined force DA lists in a TAC format. To me the Neph with the mega bolter is too versatile to not include in a TAC list.

If you field a Heldrake or Vendetta I will fire at it with the wonderful AA that comes on a Razorback or Dread and send the Neph after your ground troops.

Having played a ridiculous number of games against DE I'm used to all of my opponents vehicles having a 5++ save so the thought that the enemy might Jink doesn't bother me in the least.

Saying it's not rubbish because it's only outclasses by 3 models in it's type(I say 4 because the stormtalon is far better as well), when there is only 6 models in that type to start with is a bad way to look at it.

Coyote81 wrote:
Saying it's not rubbish because it's only outclasses by 3 models in it's type(I say 4 because the stormtalon is far better as well), when there is only 6 models in that type to start with is a bad way to look at it.

How are you handling flyers with your DA Coyote81?

For the 180 pts you spend on a DA flier, you can get a devastator squad with 4 flakk missiles, with ten points left to spare! Add a prescience libby to them and ur gonna be glancing to popping almost every flier except for Stormravens and Heldrakes.

It really sucks cause I LOVE the look of the DA fliers.

Twin linked Autocannon Dreads are cheaper and more effective.

Devastators with Flakk missiles are cheaper and more effective.

GW gave us rubbish in this flyer, its just sad considering how awesome they look that they would have such sad stats.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
cause I LOVE the look of the DA fliers.

This should be the real reason to take any unit.

Beyond that I will probably give them a try, I tend to think they will do well in my local Meta as I am the only one who has any flyers.

Better yet, you can get a scoring Scout Squad AND an Aegis with Quadguns, Camo Cloaks. 3+ Cover saves and Interceptor on a scoring unit lolololo

PS Quad guns do more damage than 4 Flakk Missiles, and you can use the Sergeant's BS4 to operate the guns, making a Scout squad with camo cloaks possibly the most efficient ADL Quadgun squad in any (?) Codex.

If only you could buy more quadguns! As for most efficient quadgun, that honor will always always go to eldar. BS5, tank hunter, reroll to wound and no cover saves ever.

DevianID wrote:
If only you could buy more quadguns! As for most efficient quadgun, that honor will always always go to eldar. BS5, tank hunter, reroll to wound and no cover saves ever.

Whoa

Tell me more

Fire Dragon Exarch

Sounds like someone's making a small allied eldar contingent. Lol


Theoretically: what rules could be added OR what kind of point reduction make the Nephlim worth fielding? I mean GW just made this new shiny model and now it's not gonna sell because the rules for it blow? Seems to me GW might act in a later FAQ if the units are so over priced that now one is buying them.

Personally I would like the Nephlim if I could

1. Reduce it to 125pts(maximum I would feel comfortable payin points for)
2. Allow squadrons of up to 3
3. Had some weapon choices that actually allowed it to hunt air units OR gave it vector dancer.
4. If nothing else was added POTMS would be nice but still not enough to make 180 points worth the statline.

Telion is a good runner up for BS6 and he gets to allocate the wounds if you're not firing at aircraft.

I still think a vindicare on a bastion manning an Icarus las canon is the best/funniest option. First Blood/slay the warlord for the win!