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Riquende wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Mantic maybe, but it seems more like a cheap knock off than a truely unique game... If someone came up and said "hey, there's a game like 40k, where you can run these same sized armies, but the rules are more streamlined and the models are cheaper" I would be all ears.

So that would be Warpath then! (Seriously, have you read the rules? 40k knock off? Really?)

Anyway...

Warlord are great. I've had a slowly growing Roman army for years, and if I thought I could get games in at all I'd buy Hail Caesar in a shot. I've got an eye on making up Napoleonic and WW2 Forces as well once my current painting projects are done. They're making Historical wargames have a mass appeal, whereas before such a genre seemed to be the province of bearded 'veterans' meeting in hard to find places.

No I haven't had a chance to unfortunately, but you can't tell me that at first glance of their minis that that ISN'T how they come across.

We don't have their minis or their books around here so I've never had a chance to view them.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Riquende wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Mantic maybe, but it seems more like a cheap knock off than a truely unique game... If someone came up and said "hey, there's a game like 40k, where you can run these same sized armies, but the rules are more streamlined and the models are cheaper" I would be all ears.

So that would be Warpath then! (Seriously, have you read the rules? 40k knock off? Really?)

Anyway...

Warlord are great. I've had a slowly growing Roman army for years, and if I thought I could get games in at all I'd buy Hail Caesar in a shot. I've got an eye on making up Napoleonic and WW2 Forces as well once my current painting projects are done. They're making Historical wargames have a mass appeal, whereas before such a genre seemed to be the province of bearded 'veterans' meeting in hard to find places.

No I haven't had a chance to unfortunately, but you can't tell me that at first glance of their minis that that ISN'T how they come across.

We don't have their minis or their books around here so I've never had a chance to view them.

I`m not sure how the new ``skrimish version`` of Warpath works but the old one, and KOW, work more like Warmaster, than they do 40K

This thread really isn't about Mantic, but my opinion of them is that their rules are great (Warpath 2.0 and Kings of War are excellent) but their miniatures don't inspire me.

The Warlord plastics on the other hand, are things of beauty. They got the design side right.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
If warlord can make a truly great Sci Fi wargame with multipart plastic miniatures (which is what I would bet the main chunk of the kickstarter would be paying for, plastic molds are expensive and they would need a ton of cash to bring in several armies out of thin air) they could be a true competitor. If someone came up and said "hey, there's a game like 40k, where you can run these same sized armies, but the rules are more streamlined and the models are cheaper" I would be all ears.

Do me a favour and ask that question on their GOA site.
How much of the Kickstart money exactly will be spent on miniatures? Also ask how much of the Kickstart money will be used to pay salaries.

Ive asked those questions around 7 times now and they keep getting deleted.

Also there is no way on earth they could commit to several armies at one time as the cost would be horrendous.
At best you will get 2 x Armies with up to 3 or 4 units from each.

GBDarkAngel wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
If warlord can make a truly great Sci Fi wargame with multipart plastic miniatures (which is what I would bet the main chunk of the kickstarter would be paying for, plastic molds are expensive and they would need a ton of cash to bring in several armies out of thin air) they could be a true competitor. If someone came up and said "hey, there's a game like 40k, where you can run these same sized armies, but the rules are more streamlined and the models are cheaper" I would be all ears.

Do me a favour and ask that question on their GOA site.
How much of the Kickstart money exactly will be spent on miniatures? Also ask how much of the Kickstart money will be used to pay salaries.

Ive asked those questions around 7 times now and they keep getting deleted.

Also there is no way on earth they could commit to several armies at one time as the cost would be horrendous.
At best you will get 2 x Armies with up to 3 or 4 units from each.

Possibly because the questions come out as being those that a troll would make?

GBDarkAngel. The kickstarter is being used to pay for sculpts, development salaries and so forth. It's basically seed money to start up. This is explained upfront on the kickstarter itself. Repeating the question is pretty trollish.

Pretty certain they have *NO IDEA* precisely how the money will go as the project is in a very early stage, and they're still AFAIK recruiting. Warlord are providing production infrastructure and contacts (so no need for expensive machinery, just tooling costs, and those likely at cost or nominal profit). DSC is responsible for the game design and online segment of the project. I'd be dubious of any precise breakdown of where the funding goes at this stage- hard to judge salary bills when you don't know how many folks you're paying. You'll notice there's actually a fairly small range of miniatures available for order as part of the kickstarter. These are likely to have been budgeted for now, and I'd expect to see more being touted as stretch goals as the campaign progresses.

I've backed it, so I'm quite happy to have put my money where my mouth is in terms of trusting them to do the job.

Besides, it's not like this is some schmuck trying to earn a quick buck then disappear. This is a very established company that could lose a LOT if they burned their backers.

Out of all the kickstarters going on right now, I'm pretty sure Warlord's is going to be one of the most legit. I've been starting up Bolt Action lately and the way the company responds to and works with its fans (and it's retail partners) is very promising. Our local store that carries them keeps having shipping errors and mispackaged models (they have terrible luck) Every time, Warlord has replaced the items without question and at no extra cost.

They seem like a legit company that really cares about it's customers. I would trust them a heck of a lot more than most other mini companies.

Pretty certain they have *NO IDEA* precisely how the money will go as the project is in a very early stage, and they're still AFAIK recruiting. Warlord are providing production infrastructure and contacts (so no need for expensive machinery, just tooling costs, and those likely at cost or nominal profit). DSC is responsible for the game design and online segment of the project. I'd be dubious of any precise breakdown of where the funding goes at this stage- hard to judge salary bills when you don't know how many folks you're paying. You'll notice there's actually a fairly small range of miniatures available for order as part of the kickstarter. These are likely to have been budgeted for now, and I'd expect to see more being touted as stretch goals as the campaign progresses.

I've backed it, so I'm quite happy to have put my money where my mouth is in terms of trusting them to do the job.

Um. That better not be the case, because that would be really problematic. They should be able to state where the initial 300k is going, and explicitly. They should have more concept art. They're missing quite a bit.

Again, if they were seeking traditional investors, they'd be laughed out the door. Just because they're going through Kickstarters doesn't mean the investors there should expect any less.

It's not the best Kickstarter, that's for sure. The high funding level and lack of details doesn't help. It's just not set up for the building buzz of hitting stretch goals like the Reaper one was. It's mediocre in comparison.

I think it will get funded, but only just.

One thing I do know though, is that once the game is coming out, Warlord stuff is solid and the rules Rick Priestly has written for them are all excellent.

winterdyne wrote:
GBDarkAngel. The kickstarter is being used to pay for sculpts, development salaries and so forth. It's basically seed money to start up. This is explained upfront on the kickstarter itself. Repeating the question is pretty trollish.

Pretty certain they have *NO IDEA* precisely how the money will go as the project is in a very early stage, and they're still AFAIK recruiting. Warlord are providing production infrastructure and contacts (so no need for expensive machinery, just tooling costs, and those likely at cost or nominal profit). DSC is responsible for the game design and online segment of the project. I'd be dubious of any precise breakdown of where the funding goes at this stage- hard to judge salary bills when you don't know how many folks you're paying. You'll notice there's actually a fairly small range of miniatures available for order as part of the kickstarter. These are likely to have been budgeted for now, and I'd expect to see more being touted as stretch goals as the campaign progresses.

I've backed it, so I'm quite happy to have put my money where my mouth is in terms of trusting them to do the job.

Priestly has stated that they will be able to make up to 50 models if they reach their KS target varying in size and complexity.
Also on the point of Models as part of the KS program all you have is Sillouettes at the minute. No physical models. There are no models made at this moment in time and only when the KS finishes will they start to make them.
You are correct that they have been budgeted for, that budget is the KS amount of £300k.

There are some genuine concerns about the kickstarter. For me, the big ones are that we don't really even have concept art for most of the stuff, or any idea about the rules. For being a half million dollar KS, we're basically being given the names of the designers and a write up that sounds like what four dudes would come up with during a six hour car ride.

The bigger problem, for me at least, is that going head to head against 40k has never worked. Plenty of games have tried, and none lasted.

that all said, I'm not sure I have a problem with KS funds going to salary for dedicated designers. I mean, if a person is going to spend a year, full time, designing the product a KS funds, how is his salary not a justifiable expense?

I think that everybody likes the sort of Platonic Ideal of Kickstarter: a garage shop or individual, with a well fleshed out idea that needs money for production. Things that deviate from that earn ire. However, and I say this as somebody was pretty critical of Wyrd during theirs, there are good reasons to seek crowdsource funding over traditional funding. A KS supporter is not investing (not in a meaningful way), but is rather spending luxury funds. The risk is spread over a large pool of supporters. And I think most critically, people that understand the product are making the choices. A banker, or venture capitalist would look at the expected returns for complex hobby games, or will see how crowded the games market it. A KS supporter is also the consumer: they back it because they want the product.

GBDarkAngel wrote:
If they were so successful then banks and investors would be falling over themselves to lend the money.

They are going to use £300k of everyone elses money to ensure they remain in employment for a year or two on nice salaries and then GW will take them over / rescue them and release the new range of minis that you all paid for.

You're confused. As is the article. Warlord Games isn't running this Kickstarter, and in my experience, in order for "banks and investors" to be "falling over themselves" they would have to have been offered the proposition, which in this case appears hasn't been made. GW won't and don't care about Warlord, Historicals or GoA. After all, GW are the only producer of items in the Games Workshop Hobby. Well, GW and Forge World.

 Polonius wrote:
The bigger problem, for me at least, is that going head to head against 40k has never worked. Plenty of games have tried, and none lasted.

Even ones involving one of the primary authors of 40K? Bear in mind that DSC and Warlord are staffed by a lot of people responsible for the GW many of us loved a decade or two ago. Some could even argue it's more like the old GW than the current incarnation is

Herzlos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
The bigger problem, for me at least, is that going head to head against 40k has never worked. Plenty of games have tried, and none lasted.

Even ones involving one of the primary authors of 40K? Bear in mind that DSC and Warlord are staffed by a lot of people responsible for the GW many of us loved a decade or two ago. Some could even argue it's more like the old GW than the current incarnation is

And that my friend is where you have been blindsided.
Dont look at who is involved. Look very very closely at who is in charge.

I do not doubt the ex GW guys intentions its just a lot of alarm bells ring about the guy in charge.

Actually the KS budget is more likely part of the initial production, most of the development (to recoup money already invested in the project). The best way to think of kickstarter is as a pre-release ordering mechanism rather than explicitly a funding method. It is highly probable that a good sized portion of the development funding is already in place.

£300k of sales in advance is pretty good, even if your production budget is higher than that. So long as your sitting stock value is greater than the production and development budgets, you're doing ok. Of course, higher is better, so you add stuff as bait (stretch goals) that do not add significantly to the dev budgets, but add perceived value to those making pre-orders.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

GBDarkAngel wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
The bigger problem, for me at least, is that going head to head against 40k has never worked. Plenty of games have tried, and none lasted.

Even ones involving one of the primary authors of 40K? Bear in mind that DSC and Warlord are staffed by a lot of people responsible for the GW many of us loved a decade or two ago. Some could even argue it's more like the old GW than the current incarnation is

And that my friend is where you have been blindsided.
Dont look at who is involved. Look very very closely at who is in charge.

I do not doubt the ex GW guys intentions its just a lot of alarm bells ring about the guy in charge.

You mean Rik? Check out monumental games, he did alright with them, from a financial point of view at least. Passed on leadership just before a couple of dropped deals wiped out the firm, but that's the video games industry for you. I'd be willing to take a punt on his ability to produce and sell (particularly sell) things in most markets. Coupled with good advice from Warlord (Stallard / Sawyer) and it looks promising to me. He's certainly not someone I'd file under 'muppet'.

40k doesn't have great market share because of some aspect of GW's corporate culture. Or because of it's rules.

It has great market share for the same reason Windows does. It has a tremendous user base, and tons of investment in stuff to make it work.

It's not hard to design a better game than 40k. It's tough, but certainly doable to create better models than 40k. It's nearly impossible to create as rich a world, with as deep a model range, as 40k has. The barrier to entry is very, very high here.

@Winterdyne - We will leave it till the end of the KS and then we can come back and say "told you so"

As for George well he has a history of jumping ship before the company goes down the swany.
If you think those are solid business credentials then fair enough.

GBDarkAngel wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
The bigger problem, for me at least, is that going head to head against 40k has never worked. Plenty of games have tried, and none lasted.

Even ones involving one of the primary authors of 40K? Bear in mind that DSC and Warlord are staffed by a lot of people responsible for the GW many of us loved a decade or two ago. Some could even argue it's more like the old GW than the current incarnation is

And that my friend is where you have been blindsided.
Dont look at who is involved. Look very very closely at who is in charge.

I do not doubt the ex GW guys intentions its just a lot of alarm bells ring about the guy in charge.

I don't know anything about Rik or DSC as such, but I've got a huge amount of respect for the Warlord staff. What's the issue with Rik / DSC management?

The original article appears to have caused a bit of confusion.

Warlord Games is John Stallard and Paul Sawyer, and has employed Rick Priestly as a freelance game designer on several of its products.

Dark Space Corp is Rick Priestley, John Stallard and Rik Alexander. They are not the same firm as Warlord, although some of the owners are the same, but they will be using Warlord's production facilities.

DSC haven't given a breakdown of the budgeting for the £300k they're trying to raise other than in very general terms. However, some things we can expect this money to cover include:

Paying a salary to Rick, Rik and presumably John until the game is released - they do have to earn a living after all.
Paying for the production, layout and artwork for a full colour hardback rulebook.
Paying for sculpting work, which is mostly being carried out by freelancers. They have firm commitments from some of the leading sculptors in the industry.
Paying for molds for making both plastic and metal models.
Paying for premises, office equipment etc.
Paying for the development of the IT infrastructure to run the real time reporting etc

@GBDarkAngel - I'm curious why you seem to be so actively hostile to DSC. Every post you've made about them is dripping with hostility, and seems to be slyly trying to imply that they're somehow trying to scam people. Do you have some personal grudge against one or more of the people involved, because that's the definite impression you're giving. You'll get a lot further by being civil.

GBDarkAngel = Kirby?

paul sawyer, aka fat bloke.. I always wondered what happened to him when he dissapeared from white dwarf

Heh, he's no longer Fat Bloke, he prefers to be called Paulus Maximus these days, true story.

Correct me if i am wrong on the detail of this but AFAIK when ' Dragons ' on the BBC 'Dragons Den' investment programme heard that their investment cash would be funding salary they said " Im out " quick as a flash .

Therefore an investment to fund salary doesnt appear from that small sample of Business people to be a wise move .

I wish the kickstarter well

pgmason wrote:


DSC haven't given a breakdown of the budgeting for the £300k they're trying to raise other than in very general terms. However, some things we can expect this money to cover include:

Rick mentioned on their forums that they have broken down the money needed to get GoA successfully off the ground. £300,000 is the figure they say they will need as a minimum, so of course you have to presume that they have worked out the specifics of where that money will go. There is no onus on them to post a shopping list of where that money will go however

Interesting looking game but I think I'm out on this kickstarter. Good luck to Warlord!