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It's been awhile since I last posted, having bronchitis kind of does that. I know I may not be the only one that has or is doing this, but I've posted my first impression review of the Dark Angel codex on http://pensacolawarhammer.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/new-dark-angels-codex-first-impression/

In short, I'm disappointed and a little angry. The codex might as well be retitled Ravenwing. It seems like it was a marketing tool to sale all the Ravenwing models that GW put out. Deathwing is an attachment, and the rest of the codex is little more than a copy/paste of Codex Space Marines.

I will take time starting tomorrow going through and doing a tactica of the codex, so read the post and let me know your feelings.

Not at all what's going on in the new book. Yes, Ravenwing gained four units, bit the book also brought basic stuff up to parity with codex Marines for the necessary stuff, as well as updating the old stuff and building up the existing units.

This is far from a first impression, more of a first look at the GW page and noticing how many Ravenwing models there are now.

@SoloFalcon1138

I will admit that I haven't read every page of the codex yet; however, from looking at the army list, I get the impression that anything other than Deathwing or Ravenwing is simply green Ultramarines.

As you point out, basic stuff is brought up to codex Marines; however, codex Marines get special weapons cheaper. More of their characters are Eternial Warrior. If you play standard space marines, this basically gives you a preview of what the new space marine codex is going to be like.

Another point that this is more of a Ravenwing/Deathwing codex is in the HQ section. Azrael, leader of the Dark Angels, has only Supreme Grand Master and Inner Circle as "Dark Angels" special rules. Rites of Battle can be found on most codex marines Special Characters. However, you get more special rules and generally better character by taking either Sammael or Belial. They are also cheaper.

I'm not above admitting that this impression may change as I pick apart the book. As it stands right now, I feel that if I choose to play a Dark Angel army with standard tactical squads, I will not be playing Dark Angels but rather green Ultramarines.

Have you even read the codex?

Yes, Ravenwing got a bunch of shiny new models. They needed it. For a legendary biker/speeder army, they previously had nothing really to set them apart from others. Now they do.

Deathwing got heavily updated and also got loads of cool new rules and features, along with some great new models.

If that wasn't enough (Most people WERE expecting this to be Codex: Death/Raven Wing), DA got lots of updates across the board and even Greenwing is VERY viable.

Re-read the codex. Your 'first impression' is seriously overlooking pretty much the entire thing.

The thing that seperates the DA from the Codex chapters is the Deathwing and Ravenwing. Other than that DA are very close to the Codex Astares?

What did you want, Giant Wolves for your marines to ride on?

I read this and disagreed so strongly that I thought you were trolling.

Even setting aside the Deathwing and Ravenwing, the Dark Angels have options to play totally differently from Codex Marines. They can spam light mech as efficiently as Wolves or Blood Angels, backed by cheap Predators and Rifleman dreads. They can mach 60 jerks with bolters in the middle of the table and pour out small arms fire that puts Grey Knights to shame thanks to one of the Sacred Banners.

Their Assault Squads can step out of drop pods with 3 template weapons each, while hammering your opponent with fire from cheap Devastators led by Techmarines who're reducing enemy cover saves.

Azrael is a swiss army knife HQ on par with Huron Blackheart for combining face beating close combat power with huge army supporting utility.

Tack on the Ravenwing and Deathwing options and you've got a huge amount of tactical flexibility along with the iconic parts of the army.

Go back and read the book and as you're doing so, compare each entry to the closest one from the Space Marine Codex. Then start playing the army. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

You're complaining that the DA codex is just green Ultramarines, and then you proceed to complain about lots of things that are different than what is in C:SM. Of course the characters are different. Isn't the whole point to be different from C:SM?

I think you are looking at it from the point of view of pure Deathwing and Ravenwing armies. Yeah, before the new codez those were the only viable way to play DA. The non-DW, non-RW portions of the new codex are very versatile. And when you suppliment them with a DW or RW unit here and there, you have something really great. That's the point. DW and RW are what DA are most famous for. That doesn't mean you have to play a pure DW/RW army. A mixed force with the new codex is very viable and very versatile.

Sounds like the Legion with the Primarch most known for his tactical mind finally has a codex to show off their tactical prowess, with literally any type of SM archetype being a possible tactic to build. Love it.

Magister187 wrote:
Sounds like the Legion with the Primarch most known for his tactical mind finally has a codex to show off their tactical prowess, with literally any type of SM archetype being a possible tactic to build. Love it.

Strange, I thought we we were talking about the Dark Angels, not the Ultramarines

Heck, I'm happy about the Tacs, Devs, and Vets! Great options!

Theres bikes and termies in the book?

Post above me by Magister187 pretty much sums it up amd is the short version. The other posts are just more points. Only question I have is if it will hold up when c:sm comes out. Crossing my fingers as da get screwed every edition when c:sm comes out. Here's to hope.

Magister187 wrote:
Sounds like the Legion with the Primarch most known for his tactical mind finally has a codex to show off their tactical prowess, with literally any type of SM archetype being a possible tactic to build. Love it.

Oh hey bro!

I am still waiting on my book to come in from the internet, but from what I've read so far, I'm pretty happy. It seems like they took the shell of a book that was the previous DA codex and fleshed it out to a point where you can play something other than deathwing. Who knows how this will shake out on the tabletop, but the next couple months will tell.
I'm sure you will see a lot of deathwing armies pop back up though as people will have them laying around. But I think as people have time to assemble other models and try other strategies, you will see a lot of bikes, ravenwing fighters and maybe even some green marines!

@DaddyWarcrimes
I can assure you I am not trolling. Just sharing my opinion and first intial thoughts about the codex. I came from the old Dark Angel codex where they only thing going for it was pure Deathwing or pure Ravenwing. I guess my mind flip back to that time, and maybe my expectations were a little too high.

@dauntless
For your comment about most people were EXPECTING a Death/Ravenwing codex, that it the problem I have that I may not be articulating very well. Having Deathwing and Ravenwing are fine. I even agree that they needed something to set them apart from regular space marine bikes. I just would like to see the Dark Angel personality carried through to all the units. How that could be carried out I don't particular know.

I will freely admit that my opinion will more than likely change as I begin to pick apart the book, but for only having it a day and half, I feel there could have been just a little more (like adding salt and pepper to a meal).


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 Dok wrote:

Magister187 wrote:
Sounds like the Legion with the Primarch most known for his tactical mind finally has a codex to show off their tactical prowess, with literally any type of SM archetype being a possible tactic to build. Love it.

Oh hey bro!

I am still waiting on my book to come in from the internet, but from what I've read so far, I'm pretty happy. It seems like they took the shell of a book that was the previous DA codex and fleshed it out to a point where you can play something other than deathwing. Who knows how this will shake out on the tabletop, but the next couple months will tell.
I'm sure you will see a lot of deathwing armies pop back up though as people will have them laying around. But I think as people have time to assemble other models and try other strategies, you will see a lot of bikes, ravenwing fighters and maybe even some green marines!

I think you have pointed out what I'm thinking and said it better than I have. My gut reaction right now is that a Greenwing is not going to play much different from a standard codex marine army. I just feel that given all the perks, units, and special rules that come with Ravenwing and Deathwing that you will only see one of these two armies.

How do people feel about dreadnaughts with the 4+ invul field in a radius

 bkiker wrote:


I think you have pointed out what I'm thinking and said it better than I have. My gut reaction right now is that a Greenwing is not going to play much different from a standard codex marine army. I just feel that given all the perks, units, and special rules that come with Ravenwing and Deathwing that you will only see one of these two armies.

I think your expectations are unrealistic.

Yes, pure Greenwing will play like a boring version of C:SM. But that is like saying if you take out everything different between Blood Angels and C:SM, the BA would play just like C:SM! Of course they would!

You're not meant to play pure Greenwing. Just like you aren't meant to play Blood Angels with only tactical squads.

Dark Angels ARE Deathwing and Ravenwing, for the most part, and are meant to be supported by Greenwing. The entire flavor of DA is the hunt for the fallen. That is what they are all about. The regular power armor marines don't get to know the deep dark secrets that the DW/RW know about, so there is nothing special about clueless Greenwing troopers. .

The codex is very well rounded. You're not supposed to take only tacticals. Take some tacticals and some devs and back them up with some DW Knights and some speeders. That is a good list and full of DA personality.

 bkiker wrote:
codex Marines get special weapons cheaper.

How so? A 5 man DA squad with plasma gun costs 85 points. A vanilla 5 man squad with plas...oh wait can't do that with vanilla. Costs me 180 minimum to have a tactical squad with a plasma gun. Don't even get me started comparing the costs for devestators between the two books.

What you might be comparing is the cost to upgrade the bundled flamer into some other special weapon. But the cost of the flamer is already built into the more costly squad. Basically, vanilla are great if you like 10 man tactical squads, not so great if you prefer 5 man. Also having the fluffy option to run a pain sgt vs vet sgt and save points is great for DA.

More of their characters are Eternial Warrior.

One more? I'd point out that eternal warrior has become a rare thing over the last few years. Most books have lost it in some form or other. BA only has one eternal warrior (and its not Dante). CSM has only one eternal warrior and lost it on their princes. Tyranids lost it entirely. Nothing really new there.

If you play standard space marines, this basically gives you a preview of what the new space marine codex is going to be like.

In some ways sure. But just like BA dex set the stage for the cost changes in DA, there's still things that will remain uniquely DA when vanilla comes along (and so on and so on). And DA has tons of things that set it apart from vanilla that I doubt will carry over, unfortunately they might not appeal to you.

Another point that this is more of a Ravenwing/Deathwing codex is in the HQ section. Azrael, leader of the Dark Angels, has only Supreme Grand Master and Inner Circle as "Dark Angels" special rules. Rites of Battle can be found on most codex marines Special Characters. However, you get more special rules and generally better character by taking either Sammael or Belial. They are also cheaper.

Only one vanilla character has Rites of Battle. Only one BA character has Rites of Battle. This is not unusual.
Azreal is a solid character. His relics are great. Ability to take doublewing frees up an HQ slot for doublewing style armies. His lion's helm has pluses over a power field (doesn't help the enemy). Rites of battle is great when taking greenwing also since they will be ld8. No he's not amazing but he's still solid and I think many more people will field him. EDIT and he can pick a DA warlord trait, which is pretty awesome actually.

I'm not above admitting that this impression may change as I pick apart the book. As it stands right now, I feel that if I choose to play a Dark Angel army with standard tactical squads, I will not be playing Dark Angels but rather green Ultramarines.

Hey I feel ya in some ways. I play Salamanders and the vanilla dex + Vulkan doesn't really capture the background or old rules the Salamanders used to have. But it is what it is and for the most part it's not that far off. irritating at times but not the end of the world.

@dauntless
I understand that if you take out everything unique to Blood Angels and Dark Angels then they would play like C:SM, nor would I plan on playing a pure Greenwing. My disappointment and issue with the codex is that the way I see it that there is a slant to the codex towards Ravenwing and a pure Ravenwing army.

I think the codex is really solid. There are a lot of throwbacks to 2nd edition, which I love. I can't believe someone is complaining about ravenwing becoming viable. I think that all three troop styles are correctly costed and have wargear that caters to many unique and potent plays styles.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I think the codex is really solid. There are a lot of throwbacks to 2nd edition, which I love. I can't believe someone is complaining about ravenwing becoming viable. I think that all three troop styles are correctly costed and have wargear that caters to many unique and potent plays styles.

I would like to clarify that I'm not complaining. I merely feel disappointed. I played a pure Ravenwing army in the last codex. I just think, feel, believe, that this codex is slanted more towards a Ravenwing or Deathwing army. . It is hard to see other viable options and other synergy builds over the blinding light that is the Ravenwing and Deathwing in this particular codex.

That's like complaining that space wolves are wolf themed. Deathwing / ravenwing IS the DA's theme. It always has been. Their green marines are supposed to be vanilla. They are not trusted yet with the chapters secrets, so for all intents and purposes ARE the same as codex marines, except with the ability to take special or heavy weapons at only 5 men. What about the super cheap librarians with choices for invulnerable saves? I think that there are a lot of combinations that's you are overlooking due to being "disappointed". The last DA codex was a shell of a codex, at least this time there is more than 2 ways to play them.

I would like to take a moment clarify my position. I do not think the Dark Angels codex is bad, broken, or overpowered. I have just stated my initial impression, a gut reaction if you will, about the codex. What in this codex can you get more bang for your buck? That is Ravenwing. Sammael has more and better special rules and wargear (Hit&Run, Scout, Skilled Rider on a jet bike with a sword that is AP 2 that strikes at initiative) than Azerael. With the perks 6th edition gives to bike added on top of what Ravenwing gets they are bar none the best unit to take.

I am simply disappointed. It seems all the love and attention that went into Ravenwing and Deathwing seemed to drop off after that. I just would like to have seen that same love and attention given to the whole army.



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@TheLionOfTheForest
Fair enough, perhaps disappointed is not a correct term. As I just posted, perhaps blinded is better suited.

The codex has only been out for two days. I have not spent those two days reading and re-reading the codex, nor have I played a game with the new codex. I have and continue to admit freely that my thoughts and opinion will probably change as I play games. As it stands now and as I peruse the army list like I would a menu, a player will get more bang for his buck by playing Ravenwing.

We do have one issue in common, sammael getting the only ap2 weapon. If all these swords are cut from the same meteoric material and they all "haven't lost their edges" then why are most ap3. Maybe it is to push sammael sales since he's about $45+ IIRC but to be honest if I want cc I can take it in plenty of forms in this codex. Maybe I am no to upset because I already had my meltdown about Mephiston being ap3 and Dante gettin nerfed to I1. I expect less out of my characters now and I am happy with a 65point librarian who has many wargear and relic options including several invulnerable save choices, I mean doesn't love displacer fields?


I think a menu is a good way to look at the new codex, take a little of this and a little of that and gorge yourself on the awesomeness. Check some of the other threads on dakka, Deathwing are being hailed as top termies in 40k. We have the best bikers and everything else we can take starts off nice and cheap.

 bkiker wrote:
I would like to take a moment clarify my position. I do not think the Dark Angels codex is bad, broken, or overpowered. I have just stated my initial impression, a gut reaction if you will, about the codex. What in this codex can you get more bang for your buck? That is Ravenwing. Sammael has more and better special rules and wargear (Hit&Run, Scout, Skilled Rider on a jet bike with a sword that is AP 2 that strikes at initiative) than Azerael. With the perks 6th edition gives to bike added on top of what Ravenwing gets they are bar none the best unit to take.

I am simply disappointed. It seems all the love and attention that went into Ravenwing and Deathwing seemed to drop off after that. I just would like to have seen that same love and attention given to the whole army.

Sammael is a character. He is not an independent character. Azrael is an independent character and gives you armywide bonuses. Just read the flipping Codex entries.

Sammael by merit of his being a character is effectively a monstrous creature on a mount. He can strike at AP2 at initiative? Cool, so can a Nemesis Dreadknight.

Striking at AP2 at initiative is a whole lot less exciting when you consider that the unit is entirely by himself and therefore can be focus fired long before he reaches combat. He is also denied a transport by merit of his being on a jetbike.

@TheLionOfTheForest

Mentioning the making Sammael have the nice rules in order to bump up his sales is what I feel happened with the whole Ravenwing in this codex. I do not disagree with you about Deathwing being the best terminators. I have always felt they should, and the Ravenwing are the best bikes, again as they should. It's really the small things that get me. For example, the company vets choice. I think there was so much potential there to make that unit something really special. As I see it, they are a step away from being Ravenwing or Deathwing, so should have something for it like a slew of wargear options and special rules. If you upgrade a tactical sergeant to a vet sergeant then you would get some of those wargear and special rules to represent that he is indoctrinating the marines further into the order.
I will have to pick a little bit of this and little bit of that until I find something that fits right for me and that I think has enough of a Dark Angel feel to it.

and the rest of the codex is little more than a copy/paste of Codex Space Marines.

I think it's hilarious that you praised the Chaos Space Marine codex when it's the grossest example of a copy/paste codex in a long, long time.

Also you said you haven't read the codex, so stop complaining.

 TedNugent wrote:


Sammael is a character. He is not an independent character. Azrael is an independent character and gives you armywide bonuses. Just read the flipping Codex entries.

Sammael by merit of his being a character is effectively a monstrous creature on a mount. He can strike at AP2 at initiative? Cool, so can a Nemesis Dreadknight.

Striking at AP2 at initiative is a whole lot less exciting when you consider that the unit is entirely by himself and therefore can be focus fired long before he reaches combat. He is also denied a transport by merit of his being on a jetbike.

Except he is an IC in the new codex.

But so what? Azrael doesn't have to be the most badass guy in the codex just because he is the leader. Anyway, Azrael is plenty badass for 215 points. A bit expensive but has several unique and good pieces of wargear, including a 2+ armor save and gives his entire unit a 4+ invul. He has two unique, master crafted weapons, he can pick whatever DA warlord trait you want without rolling, has inner circle (his squad is fearless and prefered enemer: CSM), has rites of battle, AND unlocks both DW and RW troops (allowing you to take a mixed force with everything scoring and STILL abble to take a Libby or Interrogator Chaplain.

What exactly is underwhelming to you (bkiker) about Azrael?

TedNugent wrote:Sammael is a character. He is not an independent character. Azrael is an independent character and gives you armywide bonuses. Just read the flipping Codex entries.

Sammael by merit of his being a character is effectively a monstrous creature on a mount. He can strike at AP2 at initiative? Cool, so can a Nemesis Dreadknight.

Striking at AP2 at initiative is a whole lot less exciting when you consider that the unit is entirely by himself and therefore can be focus fired long before he reaches combat. He is also denied a transport by merit of his being on a jetbike.

Sorry, but you're stuck on 4th edition. Sammael is listed as Jetbike (character) as his unit type, but Sammael's special rules are Hit & Run, Independent character, Inner Circle, Scouts & Skilled Rider.

As you say, "just read the flipping Codex entries."

@Vladsimpaler
I can't speak to previous Chaos Space Marine codices. I may not have read every word of the codex, but I have looked over the army list. My post and position through this thread has simply been my observation. I'm sorry that my thoughts and opinions have come off as complaining. That certainly was my goal. Again, I was merely voicing my observation. I have also freely admitted that my thoughts and opinions will probably change as I spend more time with the codex. As it stands right now, I have spent roughly half a day with the codex. In that time, I just simply think Ravenwing and Deathwing overshadow the rest of the codex. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying they are horrible, broke, overpowered units. I just believe that the codex is set up, whether intentional or not, to push Ravenwing and Deathwing. As of right now, I see a player getting for more benefits for point cost by going with Ravenwing.
Again, that will change as I experiment with other possible synergy combinations.


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@dauntless
I missed the he didn't have to roll for Warlord trait. Will agree that's very nice. Two things that stick out to me that makes me feel a bit let down by Azrael. First, he's not Eternal Warrior. Shoot a melta weapon at him or hit him with a Thunder Hammer/Power Fist and he fails his 4++ he's dead. I think an army wide rule a kin to what the C:SM characters have would make him a much nicer choice.

Bkiker -- you're definitely entitled to your opinion. I think the green wing will be just as popular as the black and bone, but not so much because of a killer unit, more due to excellent costing and squad layout options. Azrael gives you lots of bonuses, and the ability to make virtually the entire army scoring is a big one. Give it some time and I think it will grow on you.

@milo
I agree. I have no doubt that it will grow on me. My mind is already changing some. It's only really small things now that are still bothering me. I think Vet Sergeants and Company Vets should be allowed to pick Special Issue Wargear. I have to see how Azrael is played out over the next few weeks. It's great that he makes Ravenwing AND Deathwing troop choices, but would that still work if I fill my troop slots with tactical squads?