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I ask which is better (chimera spam or aegis line tactics) because I'm finding less and less sucess with my old mec list since 6th. I've tried a mix of both but i find I'm only making my opponant have a huge advantage getting cover thru my screen of chimeras. So i ask as a failed IG player... what am I doing wrong? Should i abandon my vet's in chimeras for huge spams and hunker down or keep trying to the best of my ability to push back the tide of greenskins and bugs (my main two opponents are Nid's and Orks... maybe tahts my problem) bec ause im sick of losing against them over and over and over and over and OVER again... I've won 1 of dozens and dozens of games since 6th came out... i need a senior officers advice desperatly. Thank You.

Aegis Blob lists with Space wolves are the more competitive option now. Psychic defense, massed powerful shooting, and great saves thanks to GBITF behind an Aegis make lists like that shine.

Mech guard just doesn't cut it anymore. HP's make them brittle, and unlike Marine Mech Armies, Guardsmen can't stand up to shooting once they get out of their metal boxes.

 PuddlePirate wrote:
I ask which is better chimera spam or aegis line tactics

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive. I use an ADL with my mech guard.

Mech may not be as good as it was, but it's still the better option in my opinion. My new found love for the medusa has aided in this decision, especially when coupled with chimerae being able to "flat-out" to allow shooting LOS then move back to give a cover save.

I've had great experience with mech though, but I think Orks are probably one of the best match up guard can have. I'd be interested to see what list you're running.

I have been running mech guard pretty successfully now a days. Are you playing friendly lgames against lists that are tailored to beat you. My experience has been that people aren't ready to deal with armor saturation anymore, because they don't expect it. Most lists are tailored to drop terminators instead of tanks now. That only helps if you are playing in tournaments though.

Also, "The Captain" is right. Right now, IG blob armies, combined with Grey Hunter and Long Fang spam are cheesy. I know, because I play Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. At Nove, the winning list was 50 some odd guardsman, excorted by a Primaris Psyker and Njall the Stormcaller (master Psyker of the Space Wolves), in addition to 5 or 6 Grey Hunter squads and a small pack of Long Fangs. This list is devastating in a tournament, because most people simply cannot deal with that many bodies. Over a hundred models, half of which have power armor, is just too much for most amies to deal with.

Regardless, I believe that mech-guard is still viable. Will you post your army list, or let us know what you are facing that's giving you trouble. I believe IG is still one of the top tier stand alone armies in 6th edetion, both mechanized & foot-slogging.

My most recent 2000 point mech guard list is listed below. Although I run it slightly differently every game, it's currently undefeated. (I've played maybe 5 games with mech guard in 6th)

CCS, Astropath, Plasma x4, Chimera (195)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Guardsman Marbo (65)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Manticore, Camo-Netting (190)

Sometimes I drop the camo-netting and switch the 2 squads of melt-vets to plasma That way the army totals 22 f'n plasma guns. Enough to make any Deathwing (Draigowing, Loganwing, etc.) army wet it's pants!!!

P.S. I'd like to think of a better use of my last 30 points than taking camo-netting on that Manticore. If anyone has any ideas I'd be open to suggestion. I'd really like to have an Aegis Defense Line for the Manticore and Leman Russ tanks to chill behind, but where to get that last 20 points from? (after dropping camo-netting...)

Erik the Red wrote:


My most recent 2000 point mech guard list is listed below. Although I run it slightly differently every game, it's currently undefeated. (I've played maybe 5 games with mech guard in 6th)

CCS, Astropath, Plasma x4, Chimera (195)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Guardsman Marbo (65)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Manticore, Camo-Netting (190)

P.S. I'd like to think of a better use of my last 30 points than taking camo-netting on that Manticore. If anyone has any ideas I'd be open to suggestion. I'd really like to have an Aegis Defense Line for the Manticore and Leman Russ tanks to chill behind, but where to get that last 20 points from? (after dropping camo-netting...)

Seems like a pretty tight list... You could take 1 plasma from each vet squad and make it a melta for the last 20 points. thats the only thing you could do barring doing the same thing but with all of the company's plasma to melta's.

 Yarrick The Necron wrote:

Erik the Red wrote:


My most recent 2000 point mech guard list is listed below. Although I run it slightly differently every game, it's currently undefeated. (I've played maybe 5 games with mech guard in 6th)

CCS, Astropath, Plasma x4, Chimera (195)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Guardsman Marbo (65)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Manticore, Camo-Netting (190)

P.S. I'd like to think of a better use of my last 30 points than taking camo-netting on that Manticore. If anyone has any ideas I'd be open to suggestion. I'd really like to have an Aegis Defense Line for the Manticore and Leman Russ tanks to chill behind, but where to get that last 20 points from? (after dropping camo-netting...)

Seems like a pretty tight list... You could take 1 plasma from each vet squad and make it a melta for the last 20 points. thats the only thing you could do barring doing the same thing but with all of the company's plasma to melta's.

Drop the Astropath. Also, if you change the LRBTs to Basilisks, you can afford the Camo net AND the Aegis. 3+ save on a Manticore will soak a lot of antitank fire.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Erik the Red wrote:


My most recent 2000 point mech guard list is listed below.

...list...

Drop the Astropath. Also, if you change the LRBTs to Basilisks, you can afford the Camo net AND the Aegis. 3+ save on a Manticore will soak a lot of antitank fire.

That's pretty similar to my list. Except I try to avoid LRBTs. The ol' Capt' has good advice, but personally I'd fork out for at least one Medusa. I'm officially a convert to the awesomeness.

Really drop the Astropath? He pretty much ensures that the Vendettas get on board and start dishing out damage. I don't like the thought of only getting a couple rounds of firing with them. I didn't used to run one, but afterhaving him in there, I don't know if I can leave him behind anymore. He's really helped me get those Vendettas in potiotion in a timely fashion the last couple games I played..

I like the basic Russ, because it's hard for certain armies to deal with AV14. They always pull soooo much anti-tank fire away from my Chimeras, which in turn keeps my army alive and scoring. Do you think that the Basilisks behind the Aegis line will perform the same way?

Erik the Red wrote:
I have been running mech guard pretty successfully now a days. Are you playing friendly lgames against lists that are tailored to beat you. My experience has been that people aren't ready to deal with armor saturation anymore, because they don't expect it. Most lists are tailored to drop terminators instead of tanks now. That only helps if you are playing in tournaments though.

Also, "The Captain" is right. Right now, IG blob armies, combined with Grey Hunter and Long Fang spam are cheesy. I know, because I play Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. At Nove, the winning list was 50 some odd guardsman, excorted by a Primaris Psyker and Njall the Stormcaller (master Psyker of the Space Wolves), in addition to 5 or 6 Grey Hunter squads and a small pack of Long Fangs. This list is devastating in a tournament, because most people simply cannot deal with that many bodies. Over a hundred models, half of which have power armor, is just too much for most amies to deal with.

Regardless, I believe that mech-guard is still viable. Will you post your army list, or let us know what you are facing that's giving you trouble. I believe IG is still one of the top tier stand alone armies in 6th edetion, both mechanized & foot-slogging.

My most recent 2000 point mech guard list is listed below. Although I run it slightly differently every game, it's currently undefeated. (I've played maybe 5 games with mech guard in 6th)

CCS, Astropath, Plasma x4, Chimera (195)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Guardsman Marbo (65)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Manticore, Camo-Netting (190)

Sometimes I drop the camo-netting and switch the 2 squads of melt-vets to plasma That way the army totals 22 f'n plasma guns. Enough to make any Deathwing (Draigowing, Loganwing, etc.) army wet it's pants!!!

P.S. I'd like to think of a better use of my last 30 points than taking camo-netting on that Manticore. If anyone has any ideas I'd be open to suggestion. I'd really like to have an Aegis Defense Line for the Manticore and Leman Russ tanks to chill behind, but where to get that last 20 points from? (after dropping camo-netting...)

You drop some plasma for melta

Erik the Red wrote:

I like the basic Russ, because it's hard for certain armies to deal with AV14. They always pull soooo much anti-tank fire away from my Chimeras, which in turn keeps my army alive and scoring. Do you think that the Basilisks behind the Aegis line will perform the same way?

A Basilisk and a Medusa behind the Aegis will outperform two Basic Russes against nearly every list.

That is a LOT of plasmaguns. Trading 2 plasmavet squads for meltavets would cover getting the Astropath you need to make the most of Marbo and your Vendettas.

Taking 2 Chimeras from plasmavet squads to put them in the Vendettas frees up the points for an ADL with Comm Array to let you reroll, along with an Officer of the Fleet to screw with your opponent's reserves.

Honestly hadn't considered either comm array or master of the fleet. Not bad ideas.

I've only got one siege tank, which is a basic basilisk. I'd like to have a medusa. You guys think manticore, meduse, basilisk, instead of manticore and two battle tanks?

Erik the Red wrote:
You guys think manticore, meduse, basilisk, instead of manticore and two battle tanks?

I'm not a fan of the basilisk. It does it's job pretty well, but the ap3 bugs me. It is cheap though, so I can't complain too much. Just don't expect wonders.

I find the real trick to playing mech guard in 6th is to keep a bit of distance between you and your enemy so Plasma Vets are key to this as they can fire off shots from 24" away. Keeping distance will ensure that your Chimeras are out of Charge range & or Melta Range. Melta Vets are still good but in order to get them into melta range you will expose your Chimera and the squad inside so if you take expect them to take heavy losses or be wiped from the board. Also note if your opponent is feilding some heavy Armour these units will be targeted early.

Also remember when wrighting your list that if your going to run a lot of Plasma you will need to run something that is reliable enough to take out AV13-14 so Vendettas, Devil Dogs, Manticores, Medusas, LR Demolishers & Deep Striking Melta Stormies are all good options. Although some are better than others.

In summery with your Vets & CCS keep some range between you and your oponent its not the end of the world if you can't rapid fire every single game turn. Take something that can pop AV13-14, doing so from range is good but melta is very good just expect the melta to die though very quickly after use. Always take a few Pie Plates that can thin out hordes because the plasma will tear apart elite units but will not have shots to annilate large hordes (don't instantly think hey my hull heavy flamers on my chimera will deal with hordes re-read the part about keeping distance. use the heavy flamers to kill deep strikers or clear objectives late game).

I think I have covered most stuff someone else can fill me in if I have missed something.

Well I personally play guard and have never played mech(dont have the money to buy 3-4 more chimeras). But from experience If you play gunline it is really hard to get your opponents objectives so unless you have a troop choice in vendettas then you arent getting it so hopefully you dont need it or hope you get first blood and slay his warlord or it will be a losing game as your army wont be able to run through an opponents army and still manage to get an objective without losing your own. Most nids monstrous beasts are 3+ save so I am usually happy with my LRBT's as hes usually got a bunch of little guys running around so I usually hit something.

Erik the Red wrote:

My most recent 2000 point mech guard list is listed below. Although I run it slightly differently every game, it's currently undefeated. (I've played maybe 5 games with mech guard in 6th)

CCS, Astropath, Plasma x4, Chimera (195)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Plasma x3, Chimera (170)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Vets, Melta x3, Chimera (155)
Guardsman Marbo (65)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Manticore, Camo-Netting (190)

Sometimes I drop the camo-netting and switch the 2 squads of melt-vets to plasma That way the army totals 22 f'n plasma guns. Enough to make any Deathwing (Draigowing, Loganwing, etc.) army wet it's pants!!!

P.S. I'd like to think of a better use of my last 30 points than taking camo-netting on that Manticore. If anyone has any ideas I'd be open to suggestion. I'd really like to have an Aegis Defense Line for the Manticore and Leman Russ tanks to chill behind, but where to get that last 20 points from? (after dropping camo-netting...)

You haven't used the extended 2x FoC?
For those last points, why not lose one of the chimeras from the vets, and put that squad in a Vendetta?
Fly over an unsecured objective, and use the vets with rides to provide covering fire.
Would the comms array that comes with an ADL do the job of the Astropath?

I'm not an experienced Guard player by any means, so my list might be laughed at - but I love spamming squads of vets with 3 flamers. Against CC opponents wall of death gets you those extra few kills, so you effectively get two attempts per turn to set them on fire (1 attempt in thier turn) plus they're dirt cheap compared to plasma (which always get 1s when I roll my cursed dice)

I play with a huge wall of flame advancing on a suicide run backed up by Chimera (with heavy stubber for extra shootiness, and they look awesome) once they disembark. Behind which sit my battle tanks and Bastion Breacher armed Medusa (str 10 ap 1 blast) for tanks and heavies with Vendetta Valkyrie flying overhead.

IMO Guard are best when you have 6x the number of dice the foe have, flamers wrack up so many shots you can't fail to wipe out those 2+ save termies. odds are it takes 6 wounds to kill one, thats only 30 dice for a squad of 5...

The general point about flamers and vets (and CCS) is the waste of their BS.
They say to use flamers on BS3 units, and save the BS4s for direct-shot weapons.

It is tempting, though. The units that allow lots of special weapons are:
CCS (BS4),
PCS,
Special Weapons squads in platoons,
Vets. (BS4).

They all allow for chimeras, but the PCS and Spec Weap squad come with 2 infantry squads. What to do with them?
If you have a units in tanks, they should all be in tanks.
Maybe blob them up, and leave them propping up a ADL.

I agree that its /better/ to have BS3 using flamers than BS4, but odds are you're still going to hit more with a flamer than a BS4 Direct Shot las gun (even rapid fire and first rank fire is 3 shots, odds are its 2 hits) so i think they're worth it. Plus their bonus comes in thier "Charge me if you dare" status with Wall of Flame.

And yeah, special wep squads are an option but like you say, 2 squads of meat shields and a platoon command soaking up points (okay, i like platoon command for orders but still) plus 6 bodies gets taken down that little bit quicker in shooting, risking the flamers too much.

Flamers are also perfect for dealing with the tedium of ADL lines. Smoke them out and set them on fire.

 Parkin_TTR wrote:
I agree that its /better/ to have BS3 using flamers than BS4, but odds are you're still going to hit more with a flamer than a BS4 Direct Shot las gun (even rapid fire and first rank fire is 3 shots, odds are its 2 hits) so i think they're worth it.

Why are we comparing a flamer to a BS 4 lasgun? Any model that could carry a flamer is going to be carrying a melta or plasma gun, not a lasgun, so comparing the two just makes no sense.

Plus their bonus comes in thier "Charge me if you dare" status with Wall of Flame.

You mean "charge me, ignore the 1-2 meatshields that just died, and massacre the entire unit anyway." Standard flamers on overwatch are not an assault deterrent, they're just a few extra casualties here and there. And you know what's better at generating extra casualties? Melta and plasma.

In which case, a better comparison is surely 3 flamers vs 1 plasma (5pts v 15pts) and while not quite being an assault deterent, at least it does add to their worth, 2 casualties in over-watch is better than (odds are) non. Quantity not quality when flamers are involved.

And in terms of brining it back to the topic, Plasma (thought not melta, granted) can sit behind an ADL just as happily as 10 man las units, whereas flamers suit the mechanised assault approach better - in my opinion. I think it stems from my hatred of plasma (im too unlucky / cowardly to gamble on overheats) and my thoughts that melta's are too one-shot hopefull for a true Guardsman. Millions of dice from infantry to wipe out enemy infantry while tanks take out tanks.

 Parkin_TTR wrote:
In which case, a better comparison is surely 3 flamers vs 1 plasma (5pts v 15pts) and while not quite being an assault deterent, at least it does add to their worth, 2 casualties in over-watch is better than (odds are) non. Quantity not quality when flamers are involved.

3 Flamers costs 36pts accounting for carrier, and wastes 3 special weapon slots.

1 Plasmagun costs 22pts, and uses 1 special weapon slot.

The comparison doesn't work the way you think.

Quantity not quality doesn't work either. Even if you get 2 casualties in overwatch, Plasma would have gotten 3+ in the turns before spent shooting at the same unit.

 Parkin_TTR wrote:
In which case, a better comparison is surely 3 flamers vs 1 plasma (5pts v 15pts) and while not quite being an assault deterent, at least it does add to their worth, 2 casualties in over-watch is better than (odds are) non. Quantity not quality when flamers are involved.

You need to consider that differently. The efficacy limitation is not the points value, it's special weapon slots. As points spent on a unit increases, it generally increases in power, until diminishing returns kick in and you're not getting anything out of it. However, as special weapon slots increase, the efficacy of the unit increases consistently. They become more specialised, but they become far better at that role. Hence why spending more points on plasma is better than spending fewer points on the more limited flamer.

The lasguns in the unit are not taken into account as they are essentially a carrier cost. You don't pick a unit for the small weapons, they're just a nice little bonus you get. Really, you're paying for the right to have special weapons in your squad. Therefore the better comparison is 3 plasma vs 3 flamer. They are both hitting the maximal efficacy of the unit, by using the special weapons slots.

If the flamers aren't an assault deterrent, then how are they worth it, when you could take plasma or melta and do far more damage?

And in terms of brining it back to the topic, Plasma (thought not melta, granted) can sit behind an ADL just as happily as 10 man las units, whereas flamers suit the mechanised assault approach better - in my opinion. I think it stems from my hatred of plasma (im too unlucky / cowardly to gamble on overheats) and my thoughts that melta's are too one-shot hopefull for a true Guardsman.

I don't see how a guardsman or space marine differ in that respect as long as you're using vets. The mechanisation isn't just for transport, it's for protection. All those anti-infantry weapons don't worry my guard while they're in their chimeras. I get a few turns of shooting plasma, maybe more if I can kite my opponent around, which isn't rare. However a flamer squad will charge in, blow it's (rather lack lustre) load, then be taken out.
Consistent high strength, low ap damage is better against most threats. If there's hordes, I have artillery for that.

Millions of dice from infantry to wipe out enemy infantry while tanks take out tanks.

The idea that tanks should take out tanks and infantry should take out infantry is rather silly. I find that my infantry more often than not deal with tanks, with back up from my fliers. While my tanks deal with infantry, with back up from plasma.

I'll admit I didn't factor in the slots, though still I think that actually 3 flamers on average can do more damage than 3 plasma against infantry in the shooting phase (or at least enough not to be considered lack lustre) Though equally i'm very bias against plasma.

as for infantry vs infantry etc theory, It wastes less weapons - I've lost too many games firing 10% of my weapons at a vehicle while 90% of my bolters do nothing, unable to get through the high AV. But obviously its more of a rule of thumb I have started to employ than a hard and fast rule.

 Parkin_TTR wrote:
I'll admit I didn't factor in the slots, though still I think that actually 3 flamers on average can do more damage than 3 plasma against infantry in the shooting phase (or at least enough not to be considered lack lustre) Though equally i'm very bias against plasma.

The thing is you get more turns of shooting with the plasma, and it's effective against more targets. You wound easier, you negate saves and kill higher value targets more reliably. Don't get me wrong, I like flamers. In fact I recommend using 3x flamer vet squad in low point games, but in things 1k + you get access to better, more consistent anti-horde and anti-infantry that the flamer can't stand up to. However, the triple plasma vet squad is very efficacious at its role of anti-MEQ, anti-TEQ, anti-light vehicles and anti-MC. The versatility of the plasma is its benefit over meltas in my opinion. The flamers just aren't versatile enough.

 Parkin_TTR wrote:
I'll admit I didn't factor in the slots, though still I think that actually 3 flamers on average can do more damage than 3 plasma against infantry in the shooting phase (or at least enough not to be considered lack lustre) Though equally i'm very bias against plasma.

as for infantry vs infantry etc theory, It wastes less weapons - I've lost too many games firing 10% of my weapons at a vehicle while 90% of my bolters do nothing, unable to get through the high AV. But obviously its more of a rule of thumb I have started to employ than a hard and fast rule.

Maybe, but only if the infantry is right in front of you, and has a 5+ save. Are you worried about Gets Hot? On my expensive Space Marines who can deal with most things without plasma I might care, but with Guard I'm willing to slap a weapon with more than 2x their strength on and go to town with Plasma weapons. Plasma Pistol gunslingers? Sign me up.

I'm becoming a fan of Heavy Flamer and 2x Meltagun vet squads for the units riding in the flyers. 2 meltaguns often gets the job done, but in games where you've got a sweep an objective clear, being able to bring in another(*) heavy flamer can really pay off.

*All chimeras should already have 1 heavy flamer.

I've also become a fan of Devil Dogs with hull heavy flamers. Gives you that nice old school multi-melta blast (like all multi-meltas use to have), and gives you the hull heavy flamer, all on a fast moving tank.
It makes for a nice tank to fill a gap.

-Matt

I love plasma guns and at the moment in my 1850 list I'm running 22 of them. Heres some mathhammer of the effects my 22 plasmas do at 24"

22 shots = 14.67 hit
14.67 hits = 12.22 wounds vs MEQ

now if I'm within 12" that number doubles

The big advantage is that plasma can kill flyers and vehicles AV11-13 where as flamers cannot. They can also wound anything upto T10 and only invos and cover can be taken against models. They will also blow up 1/3 of the vehicles they pen.

Sure some guys will die but if you play guard expect some guys to die. Think of it as giving that guardsman the honor of dying for the emperor.

 Parkin_TTR wrote:
I'll admit I didn't factor in the slots, though still I think that actually 3 flamers on average can do more damage than 3 plasma against infantry in the shooting phase (or at least enough not to be considered lack lustre) Though equally i'm very bias against plasma.

The problem with that plan is that usually if you're in range to get good results with flamers you're close enough that they charged you last turn and wiped out the entire unit. And you certainly aren't going to get to do it twice, while plasma can keep firing all game.

Oh, and on overwatch? 3x flamers average one dead MEQ, while 3x plasma average 0.8333 dead MEQ. So even as an assault deterrent flamers are barely better than plasma, and plasma is far better in every other situation.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm becoming a fan of Heavy Flamer and 2x Meltagun vet squads for the units riding in the flyers. 2 meltaguns often gets the job done, but in games where you've got a sweep an objective clear, being able to bring in another(*) heavy flamer can really pay off.

This is a terrible plan. Heavy flamers are way too expensive, a single heavy flamer won't do all that much (especially if you have to grav chute them from the flyer and land out of good flamer range), and 2x meltas is not reliable enough. I would never even consider using this option.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm becoming a fan of Heavy Flamer and 2x Meltagun vet squads for the units riding in the flyers. 2 meltaguns often gets the job done, but in games where you've got a sweep an objective clear, being able to bring in another(*) heavy flamer can really pay off.

*All chimeras should already have 1 heavy flamer.

I've also become a fan of Devil Dogs with hull heavy flamers. Gives you that nice old school multi-melta blast (like all multi-meltas use to have), and gives you the hull heavy flamer, all on a fast moving tank.
It makes for a nice tank to fill a gap.

-Matt

One heavy flamer isn't going to do much, and putting it with Melta splits the squad's purpose to the point that something is always going to be wasted.

The Devil Dog with HHF is a decent loadout choice, but Devil Dogs themself are blah.