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I think of LOS as an extra 2+ for my character most of the time.

 pretre wrote:
I think of LOS as an extra 2+ for my character most of the time.

I learned from that point on. And it's a good thing too. In my game #3, I rolled double 1's for 2 LOS. If they had been armor saves, my character would have taken 2 wounds and probably have died in that game.

Yeah, I think it is more of a decision if you actually care about the unit they are in, but you definitely don't.

It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.

Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...

Game #1 completed on p.2.

Good report. Pretty sure I've been expecting you works out of a transport. it is just a trigger for shooting and shooting works out of the FP.

I've Been Expecting You does not work from inside a transport precisely because it requires LOS. And no rule grants permission to draw LOS outside of a transport except for shooting a weapon (or PSA/Witchfire) out of a fire point. Coteaz can't use IBEY from inside a transport, just as Trazyn can't use Mind in the Machine from inside a transport, because they're both special rules which require LOS.

You can and indeed must (with Chaos) have multiple challenges in successive rounds of the same combat, as long as the first has finished. You can't have more than one going on at once. To quote from a recent YMDC thread:

 Mannahnin wrote:
While the second paragraph of page 64 states that only one challenge can be issued per combat, the following paragraph says "Once one challenge has been made, no further challenges can be issued in that combat whilst the previous challenge is ongoing. (Emphasis mine).

Further, page 65 goes on to say that "Even though further challenges cannot be issued in combat until the existing challenge has been resolved, there is the possibility that another character in the fight might intercede in a Glorious Intervention." (Emphasis mine).

This leads me to conclude that you can only have one challenge taking place in a given combat at one time, but challenges may be issued in subsequent rounds as long as there's not one CURRENTLY ongoing.

So, answering the original questions:
When the Chaos terminator champion challenges, if the SM Sgt. refuses, "he cannot strike blows at all this turn", nor can his LD be used by the squad this round (page 64). The chaos unit and the rest of the SM unit fight as normal, and wounds can carry over to the cowardly Sgt. He just doesn't strike blows. If he survives the round, the Chaos champ can (and must, per the Champion of Chaos rule) issue another challenge in the next round of close combat.

Great report! Looking forward to the rest!

Ugh, that's what I get for not checking C:GK first, I thought the trigger was just within 12" not within 12" and LOS.

Thanks for the rules clarification, Mannahnin!

Always happy to help!

Thanks for the sweet reports! Not least because I'm working on a Typhus list, and because I keep wanting to field Abby.

 calypso2ts wrote:
It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.

Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...

Good comments. I think he was overly cautious of my characters, especially of Abaddon. Only when Abaddon was tied down in combat did he begin to play his other knights aggressively. Teleporting behind the ruins instead of into them would have definitely been a better idea. It would have probably also saved his DK from the DT wound.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Always happy to help!

Thanks for the sweet reports! Not least because I'm working on a Typhus list, and because I keep wanting to field Abby.

Yeah, even though he unbalances the list, Abaddon is still DA MAN. Just had to find an excuse to fit him into my list. I just love the carnage he creates and how he affects my opponents psychologically.

I think a key to him being worthwhile is his Warlord trait. Preferred Enemy: Space Marines in a 12" radius is huge, allowing him and nearby Oblits (and even stuff like the Heldrake, or of course anything for that matter) to re-roll 1s to hit and wound against SM makes your stuff hit substantially harder.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think a key to him being worthwhile is his Warlord trait. Preferred Enemy: Space Marines in a 12" radius is huge, allowing him and nearby Oblits (and even stuff like the Heldrake, or of course anything for that matter) to re-roll 1s to hit and wound against SM makes your stuff hit substantially harder.

I totally forgot about that in this game. Lol. Not that I really needed it. Whatever my guys touched, it died (due to poor saves).

well played by you Jy2, you captalized perfectly on your opponents mistakes, but he made to much mistakes, the knights need to sweep a flank, they should have chosen the other side of Abbadon and then flame the units of and get into hth with those oblits killing them asap, after that there would be no more threats to the tanks save the turkey...

Not that it would have mattered, but I believe the Dreadknight auto-passes dangerous terrain tests. I think all monstrous creatures have move through cover. Could be wrong though, I'll check later.
Great report and nice win!

Correct

 calypso2ts wrote:
It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.

Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...

I agree, with torrent he should have shunted further away from tyhus and abby, he really should have tried killing those in assault?

Also with 3 heavy incinerators, would one of the 10 man zombie units been a great target for first blood?

He just played to your strengths jy, good bat rep though

Also I thiought flyers can only score objectives when they are hovering? So you helldrake would not be able to claim that one, not that it would have made a difference.

There is no stipulation on flyer speed for claiming objectives in the (rare) times they can score. However objectives must be within 3" of the hull for it to count 1 making many (almost all) objectives simply too far away to be claimed.

A side note - scouring/big guns makes certain vehicle scoring units but not denial units - so no contesting with fast or heavy vehicles in those missions.

Good game 1. Wiping out those three Dreadknights resulted in a quick turn around. It's amazing Abby survived throughout the game after initially taking 3 wounds.

I look forward to reading your 2nd game report. Keep up the good work!

Siphen wrote:
Not that it would have mattered, but I believe the Dreadknight auto-passes dangerous terrain tests. I think all monstrous creatures have move through cover. Could be wrong though, I'll check later.
Great report and nice win!

Nice catch. As someone who plays a semi-nidzilla tyranid list, I should have caught that. I must've been too concerned about how to deal with them and Mordrak's unit to have remembered.

 Valek wrote:
well played by you Jy2, you captalized perfectly on your opponents mistakes, but he made to much mistakes, the knights need to sweep a flank, they should have chosen the other side of Abbadon and then flame the units of and get into hth with those oblits killing them asap, after that there would be no more threats to the tanks save the turkey...

He did sweep a flank and it was the right flank also (with a 3-pt objectives). He just should have done it with all 3 dreadknights and Mordrak. Then I probably would have been in trouble.

 tuiman wrote:

I agree, with torrent he should have shunted further away from tyhus and abby, he really should have tried killing those in assault?

Also with 3 heavy incinerators, would one of the 10 man zombie units been a great target for first blood?

He just played to your strengths jy, good bat rep though

Also I thiought flyers can only score objectives when they are hovering? So you helldrake would not be able to claim that one, not that it would have made a difference.

No, I don't think he should have gone for the 10-man units. I had them spread out and along my board edge to minimize the impact of those heavy incinerators (he would've been 12-13" away from due to my screening units). You focus all that firepower and what you are doing realistically is spending 780pts just to try to kill a 50pt unit!!! On top of that, you aren't even guaranteed to wipe them out and next turn, you are in my threat range. It would have been a bad play.

One thing that really helped me was that all the high-value objectives were on my side. That forced him to have to come towards me, making my job a lot easier.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
There is no stipulation on flyer speed for claiming objectives in the (rare) times they can score. However objectives must be within 3" of the hull for it to count 1 making many (almost all) objectives simply too far away to be claimed.

A side note - scouring/big guns makes certain vehicle scoring units but not denial units - so no contesting with fast or heavy vehicles in those missions.

Correct. One of the things about the heldrake model is that its wings (which are part of its hull) dip down low enough to actually claim many objectives on the ground level. That is kind of unfair compared to the other flyers in the game...but that's how the model was actually designed. Makes a good unit even that much better. Just like the exorcist when it comes to shooting and cover compared to other tanks..

 SabrX wrote:
Good game 1. Wiping out those three Dreadknights resulted in a quick turn around. It's amazing Abby survived throughout the game after initially taking 3 wounds.

I look forward to reading your 2nd game report. Keep up the good work!

Yeah, thank goodness for LOS. I did take a risk by breaking Abbadon away from his unit to assault Mordrak, but fortunately for me, he survived.

Can't wait for the rest of the games. I absolutely love your list. Did you ever think of cutting those Oblits down to Havocs to save points and maybe grab another Heldrake?

 tetrisphreak wrote:
There is no stipulation on flyer speed for claiming objectives in the (rare) times they can score. However objectives must be within 3" of the hull for it to count 1 making many (almost all) objectives simply too far away to be claimed.

A side note - scouring/big guns makes certain vehicle scoring units but not denial units - so no contesting with fast or heavy vehicles in those missions.

This.

Note that of course wings are hull, though, which makes it very easy for the wingtips of the Helldrake to be within 3" of the table surface in ordinary modeling positions. It's tougher for the Vendetta and Night Scythe, and much tougher for the Dakkajet, but those can easily be in range of objectives placed on hills, or on the second or third floor of a ruin.

 Brymm wrote:
Can't wait for the rest of the games. I absolutely love your list. Did you ever think of cutting those Oblits down to Havocs to save points and maybe grab another Heldrake?

I was actually thinking about dropping 1 oblit from each unit and several zombies to fit in a 2nd heldrake. I'm glad I didn't. Oblits ended up to be much more useful in the tournaments, especially in game #1 versus 3 dreadknights. I like the oblits much more than havocs for both their resiliency and their flexibility, but at lower points games, I'd probably drop 1 unit of oblits (and most likely Abaddon) for other cheaper units.

Very nicely done! I actually thought the game would be closer, seeing as the GK player had the firepower to deal with your Zombies. Otherwise, Abaddon, the Heldrake and Oblits cleaned up quite nicely.

The only thing I personally would have done differently is send the Spawn up to go munch on Razorbacks, since force weapons are a tall order for Spawn. Still, great battle, looking forward to the next one.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:
Very nicely done! I actually thought the game would be closer, seeing as the GK player had the firepower to deal with your Zombies. Otherwise, Abaddon, the Heldrake and Oblits cleaned up quite nicely.

The only thing I personally would have done differently is send the Spawn up to go munch on Razorbacks, since force weapons are a tall order for Spawn. Still, great battle, looking forward to the next one.

His henchmen I felt that I could have dealt with with my dragon. However, what I didn't want was for Mordrak, who was also scoring, to be killing my scoring units and on top of a 3-pt objective! Moreover, he's the Warlord. I just had to tie him up until Abaddon could get there to finish him off.

Abby let those first 3 shots hurt him so he'd be interested in the battle he doesn't need 4 wounds anyhow

Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?

Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?

Eldercaveman wrote:
Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?

Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?

Oooh! Good call:

Fast Recon: Unlike other missions, in The Scouring, your
fast attack units are scoring units, not just your troops units.
In fact,in The Scouring,even your vehicles are scoring units,
if they are also fast attack units and are not Immobilised!

 pretre wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?

Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?

Oooh! Good call:

Fast Recon: Unlike other missions, in The Scouring, your
fast attack units are scoring units, not just your troops units.
In fact,in The Scouring,even your vehicles are scoring units,
if they are also fast attack units and are not Immobilised!

Yeah i was certain that was the case for Big Guns, but couldn't remember the wording for Scouring, but figured it'd only make sense for it to be the same.

Cue debate on whether Locked Velocity is the same as being Immobilized...

That one went pretty much like I expected but with you taking a fair bit less damage due to his piece-meal attack strategy. I also probably would have saved the spawn for transport smashing after the DKs were occupied, Modrak kills spawn as easily as zombies (and he's got a pile of attacks), but your strategy worked out pretty well too haha.

What's the mission for the second game? I feel like he's got a pretty decent answer for most of what's in your list, but his scoring (and denial) units are weak and not very mobile.