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No, it entirely changed the rule. The rule was 100% clear before.

So if I take a HKM on an LRC can rapid fire the Hurricane Bolters with unlimited range the turn I shoot the missile?

That depends on what you mean by "Rapid fire the Hurricane Bolters with unlimited range"?

"Rapid Fire" has not been an adjective/fire mode since 4th edition. You don't "Rapid Fire" a bolter anymore than you "Assault" a meltagun or "Heavy" a Lascannon.

Hurricane Bolters have a range of 24". If they are within 12" of the target, they get to fire twice as many shots. If all you fire from a LR: Crusader in a given turn is the hurricane bolters, then they cannot inflict casualties further than 24: away. If you simultaneously fire a Heavy Bolter on the LR, wounds from all of those shots can be allocated up to 36" away. if you fire a Hunter Killer Missile that same turn, wounds can theoretically be allocated any distance away, although of course the Hurricane Bolters can only fire at all if the enemy unit's closest model is within 24" of them.

 Tarrasq wrote:
I'm starting to think that this was the way it was intended all along, the FAQ just clarified the out of range rule.

As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.

If you interpret this from the point of view of the models in the unit being shot at... the FAQ doesn't change anything.

With a slight rewording

As long as an enemy model was in range of the shooting unit when To Hit rolls were made....

...lies out of range of a model that fired.

I agree with this. It's a clarification of the original rule, not a re-write. It's how I've always played it anyway.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So if I take a HKM on an LRC can rapid fire the Hurricane Bolters with unlimited range the turn I shoot the missile?

As stated by Mannahnin The Hurricane Bolters still need to be within 24 inches of at least one model in the target unit to be able to roll to hit with the Hurricane Bolters, but since you are firing the HKM as well, the wounds from that shooting can be allocated to models that are not within 24 inches of the Hurricane Bolters.

Here are my Mad MS Paint skillz to show you how the new Wound allocation works with your example.

The Hurricane bolters are in range so they get to fire 6 shots, but not within 12 inches so they do not Double Tap. The Assault cannon is within range so it can fire.

If only the Hurricane bolters and Assault cannon fire, the only casualties that can be caused by the 10 shots are from models 1 and 2.

If the HKM fires then any model from 1-20 can be removed as a casualty. (Tough there are only potentially 11 models that can be killed because you only have 11 shots).

(Please excuse the crudity of this model. I didn't have time to build it to scale or paint it.).

 BryllCream wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I'm starting to think that this was the way it was intended all along, the FAQ just clarified the out of range rule.

As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.

If you interpret this from the point of view of the models in the unit being shot at... the FAQ doesn't change anything.

With a slight rewording

As long as an enemy model was in range of the shooting unit when To Hit rolls were made....

...lies out of range of a model that fired.

I agree with this. It's a clarification of the original rule, not a re-write. It's how I've always played it anyway.

It is NOT a clarification of the original rule. Read the original rule one more time:

"As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range."

If that rule was somehow referring to a model in the unit being SHOT AT, then this rule literally makes no sense, since casualty removal would never normally cause a model in the unit being shot at to suddenly end up out of range...i.e. if a model being shot at starts the shooting attack within range then no matter how many of his chums get removed as casualties during that attack he's still going to be within range.

This rule ONLY ever made sense if it was referring to a model in the firing unit, as casualty removal can end up making firing models out of range, as the more models you pull from the front of the unit, the more firing models suddenly end up 'out of range'.

So this is most certainly a change to the printed rules. It may be how they always meant for it to be played, but it is NOT what they actually wrote.

 yakface wrote:

It is NOT a clarification of the original rule. Read the original rule one more time:

"As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range."

If that rule was somehow referring to a model in the unit being SHOT AT, then this rule literally makes no sense, since casualty removal would never normally cause a model in the unit being shot at to suddenly end up out of range...i.e. if a model being shot at starts the shooting attack within range then no matter how many of his chums get removed as casualties during that attack he's still going to be within range.

This rule ONLY ever made sense if it was referring to a model in the firing unit, as casualty removal can end up making firing models out of range, as the more models you pull from the front of the unit, the more firing models suddenly end up 'out of range'.

So this is most certainly a change to the printed rules. It may be how they always meant for it to be played, but it is NOT what they actually wrote.

It is. The section you quoted specified "even if the closest model now lies out of range". The FAQ simply reminds us that you are not allowed to remove models who're out of range.

 BryllCream wrote:

 yakface wrote:

It is NOT a clarification of the original rule. Read the original rule one more time:

"As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range."

It is. The section you quoted specified "even if the closest model now lies out of range". The FAQ simply reminds us that you are not allowed to remove models who're out of range.

No it really is not.

The sentence is clear if you read it like this:

"As long as a [firing] model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range."

He refers to the firing model.

 BryllCream wrote:

It is. The section you quoted specified "even if the closest model now lies out of range". The FAQ simply reminds us that you are not allowed to remove models who're out of range.

No, if you're reading that rule as applying to the models being fired upon, then as soon as the 'closest model' (in the unit being fired upon) is out of range then the rest of the models in the unit would also be out of range...so the rule cannot possibly make sense when read that way.

 yakface wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

It is. The section you quoted specified "even if the closest model now lies out of range". The FAQ simply reminds us that you are not allowed to remove models who're out of range.

No, if you're reading that rule as applying to the models being fired upon, then as soon as the 'closest model' (in the unit being fired upon) is out of range then the rest of the models in the unit would also be out of range...so the rule cannot possibly make sense when read that way.

That is probably what page 16 is referring to.

 yakface wrote:

"As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range."

If that rule was somehow referring to a model in the unit being SHOT AT, then this rule literally makes no sense, since casualty removal would never normally cause a model in the unit being shot at to suddenly end up out of range...i.e. if a model being shot at starts the shooting attack within range then no matter how many of his chums get removed as casualties during that attack he's still going to be within range

Couldn't this possibly cover the case of abilities such as Pavane of Slaanesh?

So...
Imagine a unit of scarabs (or other swarms) that are getting flamered by a strength 6+ template (for instant death reasons) and there isn't a weapon with longer range. Say 6 of the 10 bases are in range of a flamer templates. Normally, the number of wounds would double and wipe the entire unit out. With this new interpretation, the doubled wounds WOULDN"T be allocated to the bases that are out of range?

 Anpu-adom wrote:
So...
Imagine a unit of scarabs (or other swarms) that are getting flamered by a strength 6+ template (for instant death reasons) and there isn't a weapon with longer range. Say 6 of the 10 bases are in range of a flamer templates. Normally, the number of wounds would double and wipe the entire unit out. With this new interpretation, the doubled wounds WOULDN"T be allocated to the bases that are out of range?

Because I know it is coming, the doubling of wounds prior to allocation is under debate in another thread. Assuming wounds do double before allocation, the wounds would not be able to be allocated to models that cannot be hit by a template.

I wasn't even going to bring it up because its irrelevant to the answer.

That's correct - wounds from a shooting attack can't be allocated past the max range of the firing models.

I'm well versed in the "when to double" argument... my group doubles and then applies instant death.

Has anyone thought of how this rule may affect blast templates? To me it's clear that flamers are affected by this change because its clear that they have a range. In the whole Vulnerable to blasts thing, would the range (ie, the area under the template) limit the number of models on which wounds could be allocated?

Either way, I'm sending these to the GW FAQ email.

This exact scenario happened to me last night...

Noise marines with a blastmaster fire on genestealers behind blocking terrain:

....GGG. BBBB.................. ..
....GGG. BBBB.................
....GGGGBBBB................... N
GG.......................................... Bl N N N N

G are genestealers, N is NM w sonic blaster, Bl is NM w blastmaster
B is blocking terrain...making the majority genestealers not seen


I fire the blastmaster, it scatters and wounds 7...the rules technici ally contradict...but we ended up only pulling the models the blastmaster could see.
Additionally my noise marines wounds did not get allocated as well...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I argued the scatter weapon pulls from the front and the noise marines pull what they see.

I conceded because it was going to be a fun game, and i didn't want to spoil killing bugs

 Tarrasq wrote:
I'm starting to think that this was the way it was intended all along, the FAQ just clarified the out of range rule.

As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.

If you interpret this from the point of view of the models in the unit being shot at... the FAQ doesn't change anything.

With a slight rewording

As long as an enemy model was in range of the shooting unit when To Hit rolls were made....

...lies out of range of a model that fired.

emmmm, no. The FAQ changed the dynamic not clarify it.

I see even with the new FAQs release today (2/16), this still stands...

What about a unit with 10 twin-linked flamers and one storm bolter shooting at a squad of 30 orks. Each of the flamers hit 5 orks causing 40 wounds. The storm bolter fires but wiffs.

Does the wording of this rule allow the squad to be wiped out? The stormbolters range is 24" after all.

Before anyone asks. The entire ork mob was within 24".

 Idolator wrote:
What about a unit with 10 twin-linked flamers and one storm bolter shooting at a squad of 30 orks. Each of the flamers hit 5 orks causing 40 wounds. The storm bolter fires but wiffs.

Does the wording of this rule allow the squad to be wiped out? The stormbolters range is 24" after all.

Before anyone asks. The entire ork mob was within 24".

Post FaQ: Yes the whole unit can be killed in your situation.

Pre FaQ: The whole unit could be killed as well.

P.S. 10 flamers each hitting 5 times is how many wounds? (Hint not 40).

50 hits, if he failed to wound 10 times is how many wounds? (Hint: not 50)

rigeld2 wrote:
50 hits, if he failed to wound 10 times is how many wounds? (Hint: not 50)

Right he said hits and never said he failed to wound 10 times, I read it as hits meaning they all scored wounds.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
50 hits, if he failed to wound 10 times is how many wounds? (Hint: not 50)

Right he said hits and never said he failed to wound 10 times, I read it as hits meaning they all scored wounds.

He said each hit 5 times and made 40 wounds.

rigeld2 wrote:50 hits, if he failed to wound 10 times is how many wounds? (Hint: not 50)

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
50 hits, if he failed to wound 10 times is how many wounds? (Hint: not 50)

Right he said hits and never said he failed to wound 10 times, I read it as hits meaning they all scored wounds.

Let's all play nice, please.

I like to use this forum to clarify things. That way I can wrap my head around them when I'm playing.

But yes, the 50 hits with flamers caused 40 wounds. They were very unlucky 'ard boys. I didn't mention that becasue it wasn't relevant to the question.

I wasn't trying to spike the debate, it was an honest question. That you answered well.

since its been necroed. this came up in a game today.

a barrage weapon scatters outside of its 36" maximum range. Can you allocate wounds to the unit hit that is outside of the maximum range because its barrage?

Yes as you treat the shot as coming from the centre hole of the marker.

So what about the rules on page 14 "The Wound Pool" and page 15 "Mixed Wounds". These seem to suggest that the wounds are sepperated and allocated according to Strength, AP, and Special Rules. The ability to use a heavy weapons range to boost the range of an assault or rapid fire weapon seems to me to be a moot point as you declare which wound pool you are using first.

I'll quote page 15 here. - "This allows you to place your shots where they'll do the most damage!"

The maximum range of a weapon is the farthest that it can do damage.

Templates(flamers) use special rules and therefore go into a seperate wound pile from bolters. Plasma pistols have different strength and AP from a bolt pistol so must be put into a seperate wound pile.

These are all rolled for in order, chosen by the shooter, to maximise their effectiveness at their given range.

This is just my two cents and how we've been playing it at my gaming group since sixth edition came out. All that this FAQ seems to have done is confirm to me how we've been playing all along.

It's all one wound pool. And range does not mean that it's a separate wound group inside the pool - only STR, AP, or a special rule can split it out. And even then it only matters for when it gets allocated.

So only models under a template such as those hit by a unit of Daemon flamers can be removed(only 11 models out of 20 were actually under the different firing templates). The wounds no longer roll into the rest of the squad, yes? Only up to the 11 can be removed due to wounds depending on saves?