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Hey Dakka,
I have my Dark Angels on the go, and on the side of that some pre-Heresy stuff. I have always liked the Black Templars however to such an extent that I really will just put aside my Dark Angels when they are painted and get some Templars. Now, I know their codex isn't the best and is certainly showing it's age but I was wondering what are the pros of the army, what performs best and what are the better things to take in one?

crimson

Pros:
*Tank hunter cyclone missile terminators at two per five-man squad.
*Can take five-man tactical squads with heavy and special weapon.

Cons:
*Shooting army that has to run out of cover and run right at the enemy if they take casualties.
*Never going to get a codex update (GW has even removed the army from the main rulebook in 6th).

 Peregrine wrote:
Pros:
*Tank hunter cyclone missile terminators at two per five-man squad.
*Can take five-man tactical squads with heavy and special weapon.

Cons:
*Shooting army that has to run out of cover and run right at the enemy if they take casualties.
*Never going to get a codex update (GW has even removed the army from the main rulebook in 6th).

Oh alright. They removed it from the 6th ed rulebook? Hmm, that puts things into a perspective. I heard rumours though that they aren't actually getting rolled into Codex: Space Marines and that they are still going to have a new codex. Black Templars have so much more to give than say, the Blood Angels, in terms of being unique and definitely warrant their own codex. Hmmm, anybody know of any units that are worthwhile then?

They are not removed but They are quite outdated codex Being just as old tau's but thanks to the shooty rules of sixth eddition They are holding a fight up pretty well.

Good to know. Anybody got any tips on what units to field over others then? I was originally going to be bold and use the Dark Angels 'dex to make a Sword Brethren (Terminator) army with Belial, but I just keep thinking it's not very good of me to diss the BT 'dex, however old it may be.

Also I have a querry. If I took a Marshal and gave him Terminator armour and a pair of Lightning Claws, could I master-craft the claws seeing as they are a pair and if so would I purchase 2 master-crafted weapons or one? Also, they come to what 55 points together? It says any master-crafted weapon bought only uses the 15 pts for the master-crafted when removing from the 100pts total to pick from, when getting the overall total for my Marshal would I then add on the other 30 points for the pair of Lightning Claws? Any help would be REALLY appreciated.

IIRC a pair of master-crafter lighting claws would be 40 points as you pay to master-craft twice I think (they count as two weapons) but counts only as 30 from your gear allowance.

Also, chappys rock

 Peregrine wrote:

*Never going to get a codex update (GW has even removed the army from the main rulebook in 6th).

they aren't removed from the rulebook, they still have a place on the allies matrix

they were just skipped over on the model showcase

 macc92 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

*Never going to get a codex update (GW has even removed the army from the main rulebook in 6th).

they aren't removed from the rulebook, they still have a place on the allies matrix

they were just skipped over on the model showcase

Which is a pretty nice "you can still play this army if you insist on it, but we're never going to do anything with it".

Though the leaked miniatures release schedule did have places for "Sword Bretheren" and "Neophytes" on it, so I doubt they're dead entirely.

Ok. Would anybody suggest fielding Neophytes in my Crusader Squads? I have never been fond of Scouts (which is what they obviously are) and the Scout models are hideous in my opinion so that's a reason I would avoid them, but does anybody suggest fielding them? What about using Crusaders as transports? Yay or nay? Any decent battle tactics, units to field and such is appreciated as I am thinking of buying a 10-man tac squad, a 5-man combat squad and the BT and DA upgrade frames, and the BA DC (going to remove the blood droplets, or may mix into the fluff of my Crusade) to mix and match and make some nice models.

If you're running neophytes in the squad, they should be used as ablative wounds to activate your righteous zeal, this works really well with a chappy and 3 cenobyte servitors. Loads of guys in a LRC does work as well because not many people expect you to fill a tank with non-terminator bodies, however it is a big point sink for a not that spectacular unit and will draw lots of fire

 macc92 wrote:
If you're running neophytes in the squad, they should be used as ablative wounds to activate your righteous zeal, this works really well with a chappy and 3 cenobyte servitors. Loads of guys in a LRC does work as well because not many people expect you to fill a tank with non-terminator bodies, however it is a big point sink for a not that spectacular unit and will draw lots of fire

I am not sure whether to run Neophytes or not though. I don't know whether they are worth it because I never ran scouts with my SM or DA and as I said I find the models butt-ugly too. Are they worth it?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Though the leaked miniatures release schedule did have places for "Sword Bretheren" and "Neophytes" on it, so I doubt they're dead entirely.

Which one? The last "leak" was a fake.

I also belive the bikes they have are quite cheap? Tank hunters on missiles are quite good.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

 macc92 wrote:
If you're running neophytes in the squad, they should be used as ablative wounds to activate your righteous zeal, this works really well with a chappy and 3 cenobyte servitors. Loads of guys in a LRC does work as well because not many people expect you to fill a tank with non-terminator bodies, however it is a big point sink for a not that spectacular unit and will draw lots of fire

I am not sure whether to run Neophytes or not though. I don't know whether they are worth it because I never ran scouts with my SM or DA and as I said I find the models butt-ugly too. Are they worth it?

they are only worth it if you are going to run headlong at the enemy with a big blob of guys for use as ablative wounds, but overall if you don't like the models, don't use them a BT army can function well enough without them

Pros-
+Terminator squads with tank hunters with the ability to run 5 terminators + 2 heavy weapons. (Assault cannons are great at this)
+Army wide buffs due to the Emperor's Champion.
+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)
+ 20 man troop choices. (10 Initiates 10 Neophytes)
+ LRC as dedicated transport
+ Special skills for sword brethren and command squads which can make some interesting army builds. (Furious charge, Infiltrate, Counter-Charge.)
+ Dreadnoughts just got buffed with Venerable upgrade. (Now WS 5 BS 5)
+ Cheap land speeder typhoons.
+ Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade for all their tanks.
+ Assault marines can have the option to buy melta bombs for everyone in the squad.
+ No sergeants except for command squad. (Good or Bad.)

You have to keep in mind this codex is old. Very old. They are not a forgiving army to use and can be rather frustrating at first.

Cons-
+ Zeal moves and pull scoring units off objectives or out in the open.
+ HQ choices stat lines are not up to par with other SM codex stat lines. (WS5 vs WS6)
+ We still have to buy all the extra equipment such as assault grenades and krak grenades.
+ Age of the codex really shows compared to other SM Codices. (Lack of decent special characters.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

*Never going to get a codex update (GW has even removed the army from the main rulebook in 6th).

That's weird, because when I was reading the rulebook I'm pretty sure I saw them.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Pros-
+Terminator squads with tank hunters with the ability to run 5 terminators + 2 heavy weapons. (Assault cannons are great at this)
+Army wide buffs due to the Emperor's Champion.
+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)
+ 20 man troop choices. (10 Initiates 10 Neophytes)
+ LRC as dedicated transport
+ Special skills for sword brethren and command squads which can make some interesting army builds. (Furious charge, Infiltrate, Counter-Charge.)
+ Dreadnoughts just got buffed with Venerable upgrade. (Now WS 5 BS 5)
+ Cheap land speeder typhoons.
+ Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade for all their tanks.
+ Assault marines can have the option to buy melta bombs for everyone in the squad.
+ No sergeants except for command squad. (Good or Bad.)

You have to keep in mind this codex is old. Very old. They are not a forgiving army to use and can be rather frustrating at first.

Cons-
+ Zeal moves and pull scoring units off objectives or out in the open.
+ HQ choices stat lines are not up to par with other SM codex stat lines. (WS5 vs WS6)
+ We still have to buy all the extra equipment such as assault grenades and krak grenades.
+ Age of the codex really shows compared to other SM Codices. (Lack of decent special characters.)

YES! Thank you EmperorsChampion for that definitive list. Can you point me to the most recent errata FAQ for the BT, I never seem to keep track of these things so things in the 'dex may have changed. I know the codex is old, that doesn't really bother me as much as others, it just gives me more time learning how to use them and building them up before I get the new one sometime next year (as it is rumoured, pinch of salt as always). I was going to have a Marshal with twin Lightning Claws and an Adamantine Mantle, more because I like Lightning Claws as a weapon both in-fluff and in-game.I think I may take my Crusader Squads as 10 Initiates and then 5 Neophytes, so they can fit in a Crusader and the few Neophytes can act as bullet shields. Any tactics perhaps? How to use what? and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are Assault Marines worth it? I heard because C: BA have them as troops and they can have flamer loudouts they are worth it, I also heard C: SM is useless for them. How is C: BT for Assault Marines? I also want to know what weapon loudouts are useful for Crusader squads. I was thinking of running meltas in my list for lots of wounds that negate armour saves, but I don't quite know.

https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2 here is the place of all the faqs

as far as assault marines are concerned, BT will be better tank hunters because everyone can take meltabombs, but they are slightly worse for anti infantry than C:SM due to costing more per guy

Running your Marshal with twin LCs and Adamantine Mantle would leave him without an invuln unless you take Terminator Armour, in which case it'd still only be a 5++.


The latest FAQ is here.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Pros-
+Terminator squads with tank hunters with the ability to run 5 terminators + 2 heavy weapons. (Assault cannons are great at this)
+Army wide buffs due to the Emperor's Champion.
+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)
+ 20 man troop choices. (10 Initiates 10 Neophytes)
+ LRC as dedicated transport
+ Special skills for sword brethren and command squads which can make some interesting army builds. (Furious charge, Infiltrate, Counter-Charge.)
+ Dreadnoughts just got buffed with Venerable upgrade. (Now WS 5 BS 5)
+ Cheap land speeder typhoons.
+ Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade for all their tanks.
+ Assault marines can have the option to buy melta bombs for everyone in the squad.
+ No sergeants except for command squad. (Good or Bad.)

You have to keep in mind this codex is old. Very old. They are not a forgiving army to use and can be rather frustrating at first.

Cons-
+ Zeal moves and pull scoring units off objectives or out in the open.
+ HQ choices stat lines are not up to par with other SM codex stat lines. (WS5 vs WS6)
+ We still have to buy all the extra equipment such as assault grenades and krak grenades.
+ Age of the codex really shows compared to other SM Codices. (Lack of decent special characters.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

*Never going to get a codex update (GW has even removed the army from the main rulebook in 6th).

That's weird, because when I was reading the rulebook I'm pretty sure I saw them.

IMO potential tier list and it's a good time to be a BT player, but it's a bad time to start a new BT army. It's been so long since a BT codex who knows what GW is going to do with the next codex. By the time it's released fully painted units that are great under the current codex may become obsolete or illegal such as double heavy weapon tank hunting tactical terminators, and other units will probably receive a large reduction in points such as sword brethren and initiates. Who knows, the only certainties are the present is good and the future is uncertain.

macc92 wrote:https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2 here is the place of all the faqs

as far as assault marines are concerned, BT will be better tank hunters because everyone can take meltabombs, but they are slightly worse for anti infantry than C:SM due to costing more per guy

Alright then, thanks.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Running your Marshal with twin LCs and Adamantine Mantle would leave him without an invuln unless you take Terminator Armour, in which case it'd still only be a 5++.


The latest FAQ is here.

I did mean to say Terminator Armour too. I like LC's too much when compared to the TH SS combo. Not only the look, but the fluff, and the potential in-game as I noted. I can understand if the TH SS combo is better but I would like my Marshal to go with the weapon set I prefered that bit more.

schadenfreude wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Pros-
+Terminator squads with tank hunters with the ability to run 5 terminators + 2 heavy weapons. (Assault cannons are great at this)
+Army wide buffs due to the Emperor's Champion.
+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)
+ 20 man troop choices. (10 Initiates 10 Neophytes)
+ LRC as dedicated transport
+ Special skills for sword brethren and command squads which can make some interesting army builds. (Furious charge, Infiltrate, Counter-Charge.)
+ Dreadnoughts just got buffed with Venerable upgrade. (Now WS 5 BS 5)
+ Cheap land speeder typhoons.
+ Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade for all their tanks.
+ Assault marines can have the option to buy melta bombs for everyone in the squad.
+ No sergeants except for command squad. (Good or Bad.)

You have to keep in mind this codex is old. Very old. They are not a forgiving army to use and can be rather frustrating at first.

Cons-
+ Zeal moves and pull scoring units off objectives or out in the open.
+ HQ choices stat lines are not up to par with other SM codex stat lines. (WS5 vs WS6)
+ We still have to buy all the extra equipment such as assault grenades and krak grenades.
+ Age of the codex really shows compared to other SM Codices. (Lack of decent special characters.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

*Never going to get a codex update (GW has even removed the army from the main rulebook in 6th).

That's weird, because when I was reading the rulebook I'm pretty sure I saw them.

IMO potential tier list and it's a good time to be a BT player, but it's a bad time to start a new BT army. It's been so long since a BT codex who knows what GW is going to do with the next codex. By the time it's released fully painted units that are great under the current codex may become obsolete or illegal such as double heavy weapon tank hunting tactical terminators, and other units will probably receive a large reduction in points such as sword brethren and initiates. Who knows, the only certainties are the present is good and the future is uncertain.

Yes I understand. It doesn't appear though that the BT will be here until mid-2014 from rumours, after the Orks release I believe. From the sound of it they are going for a complete overhaul of the codex so it may be a while. Until then I am willing to have what is good now so it gives me an excuse to buy more preety stuff come the actual release of the new 'dex.


Out of curiosity, what is the best Vow to take with your Emperor's Champion? I can't quite decide.

Either AAC or ATW, DTW IMO. I usually run AAC because I run double Chaplains at the moment. People stopped taking meltas, AlmightyWalrus started running double LRC with Rage TH/SS Terminators.

 Niiai wrote:
I also belive the bikes they have are quite cheap?

Sadly, no. They're bikes are more than the space marine bikes (32 pts versus 25 pts). However, they can take 3 special weapons when the other codecies can only take 2 (not sure about DA, though).

The Emperor's Champion's Pro/Con list is very good.

+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)

Substitute a Lightning Claw for the Thunderhammer, and you have my favorite marshal loadout.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Either AAC or ATW, DTW IMO. I usually run AAC because I run double Chaplains at the moment. People stopped taking meltas, AlmightyWalrus started running double LRC with Rage TH/SS Terminators.

Haha sounds preety sweet. AAC is nifty for the use of Rage you get with the vow. Might make for some nice combats during a game.

kronk wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I also belive the bikes they have are quite cheap?

Sadly, no. They're bikes are more than the space marine bikes (32 pts versus 25 pts). However, they can take 3 special weapons when the other codecies can only take 2 (not sure about DA, though).

The Emperor's Champion's Pro/Con list is very good.

+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)

Substitute a Lightning Claw for the Thunderhammer, and you have my favorite marshal loadout.

I was thinking of running some melta bikes aided by melta attack bikes (if you can't see from this, I will be going with melta weaponry ). Might help with taking out some of my regular opponent's men who also happens to run a Predator, Rhino (or two) and Dreadnought ALL the time.

Hmmm, never would have thought of going with an LC and SS together. I intended for twin LC's because of the +1 A you got with it and that coupled with Terminator Honours means 5 A for my Marshal if I recall correctly.

Don't forget, if you purchase terminator armour, you automatically get terminator honours for free

3 Bikes with 3 plasma is less than 3 Vanilla bikes with 2 plasma and a combi-plasma, and you get to keep the extra plasma.

macc92 wrote:Don't forget, if you purchase terminator armour, you automatically get terminator honours for free

Exactly! Get a 2+ Armour Save, 5+ Invulnerable Save and +1 Attack all at once! I do love that about the Black Templars.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:3 Bikes with 3 plasma is less than 3 Vanilla bikes with 2 plasma and a combi-plasma, and you get to keep the extra plasma.

Hmm, didn't know that. I have tried Plasma before but I find it too risky mainly because I kept failing my Gets Hot! saves. I find melta weaponry more appealing both fluff and game wise too.

A good army in the right hands but you will need luck on your side. Dont worry about getting rolled into SM; somebody offered that as an opinion months ago and somehow the gullible masses turned it into straight from GW fact apparently.

Run em the way they are. Ive found that 9 out of 10 decent players will let you ignore GW's incompetance and let you tweak your dex a bit. Take grenades for free, take a Stormtalon, etc.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
A good army in the right hands but you will need luck on your side. Dont worry about getting rolled into SM; somebody offered that as an opinion months ago and somehow the gullible masses turned it into straight from GW fact apparently.

Run em the way they are. Ive found that 9 out of 10 decent players will let you ignore GW's incompetance and let you tweak your dex a bit. Take grenades for free, take a Stormtalon, etc.

Yes I have heard this. It's age and lack of content in comparison with the Space Marine, Blood Angel, Space Wolf, and new Dark Angel codices means it struggles to punch above it's weight as the Black Templars should. Luck.... me and Luck don't seem to get on well haha I have a very poor history of rolling poor numbers with my dice, and the end results often costing me. That wouldn't bother me though. I have gamed using both the 5th ed CSM and DA codices and so I am used to having an army that really struggles (didn't/don't have the money for those new 'dexes). I am not worried about the getting rolled into SM fiasco, I do believe that the BT have too strong a love amongst the GW fanboys for them to make such a daft mistake as rolling them into an existing codex, not to mention it would make the codex absolutely humongous and riciculous, besides, GW are money-whores, if they have a market for it, so shall it be!

Hmmm, I could see my regular and others allowing me to take grenades for free (preety daft that we have to pay for the bloody things) and such. Would you have any advice on how to best use them and tackle them as an all-round force then d3m01iti0n?

One of the advantages of Templars is that people tend to underestimate us.

I run a pair of LRCs with a Character leading a 12/13 strong Crusader squad. With such a Tactic, you can usually win against most other MEQ choices in combat and sometimes TEQ, depending on your luck and level of firepower available.

I have had some luck with our assault squads.Very good at AT and Anti-MC work and they should be able to win against Scout equivalents or worse. If you take AAC, NMTO a squad of 8 Initiates can handle most units, provided they get the charge.

Despite the stigma attached, PA Sword Brethren can lay down the hurt, you just gotta think about they're deployment and target more. Command squads are good, but they get very expensive, very quickly.
That's all I got time to say, I'm afraid.

Happy Crusading!