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 The Crusader wrote:
One of the advantages of Templars is that people tend to underestimate us.

I run a pair of LRCs with a Character leading a 12/13 strong Crusader squad. With such a Tactic, you can usually win against most other MEQ choices in combat and sometimes TEQ, depending on your luck and level of firepower available.

I have had some luck with our assault squads.Very good at AT and Anti-MC work and they should be able to win against Scout equivalents or worse. If you take AAC, NMTO a squad of 8 Initiates can handle most units, provided they get the charge.

Despite the stigma attached, PA Sword Brethren can lay down the hurt, you just gotta think about they're deployment and target more. Command squads are good, but they get very expensive, very quickly.
That's all I got time to say, I'm afraid.

Happy Crusading!

Thanks for the advice The Crusader!

I was aiming on a couple of 10 Initiate, 5 Neophyte squads in Crusaders, maybe even one less because I may attach a character to a squad or two. Accompanied by Rage from AAC it might make them a hard hitter in combat.

I was definitely considering giving my Assault Marines melta bombs for the added punch to wreck his tanks (which I will need seeing his favour towards fielding them).

I was going to go with TDA Sword Brethren over PA, simply because I have the models to spare for them (the Space Hulk termies and the DV termies.) Accompanied by my TDA Marshal and TDA Command Squad that might make a nice detachment of deep strikers (handy that my Marshal has a teleport homer eh?)

I will get a Crusader Squad first of all, try the scheme and make sure I'm for definite but I can foresee I am and will be definitely sticking to them. After there I will expand. I was thinking of taking a Master of Sanctity because they seem so great! Or would Grimaldus be a better option for that slot?

Nowadays i run an assault Termi squad with TDA Chappy in a LRC. Walk a dual Cyclone Termi squad. 10 man Crusader squad 5 Ini/5 Neos with EC. 5 man ML/plasma squad. Finally two Typhoons. Thats all at 1500. Anything bigger and I would takr another LRC and fill it with the CC Crusaders. And probably another Chappy.

Im not properly equipped but after a few more purchazes Im going to play with a Mech list and run LRC spam and Vindis or Preds.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

 The Crusader wrote:
One of the advantages of Templars is that people tend to underestimate us.

I run a pair of LRCs with a Character leading a 12/13 strong Crusader squad. With such a Tactic, you can usually win against most other MEQ choices in combat and sometimes TEQ, depending on your luck and level of firepower available.

I have had some luck with our assault squads.Very good at AT and Anti-MC work and they should be able to win against Scout equivalents or worse. If you take AAC, NMTO a squad of 8 Initiates can handle most units, provided they get the charge.

Despite the stigma attached, PA Sword Brethren can lay down the hurt, you just gotta think about they're deployment and target more. Command squads are good, but they get very expensive, very quickly.
That's all I got time to say, I'm afraid.

Happy Crusading!

Thanks for the advice The Crusader!

I was aiming on a couple of 10 Initiate, 5 Neophyte squads in Crusaders, maybe even one less because I may attach a character to a squad or two. Accompanied by Rage from AAC it might make them a hard hitter in combat.

I was definitely considering giving my Assault Marines melta bombs for the added punch to wreck his tanks (which I will need seeing his favour towards fielding them).

I was going to go with TDA Sword Brethren over PA, simply because I have the models to spare for them (the Space Hulk termies and the DV termies.) Accompanied by my TDA Marshal and TDA Command Squad that might make a nice detachment of deep strikers (handy that my Marshal has a teleport homer eh?)

I will get a Crusader Squad first of all, try the scheme and make sure I'm for definite but I can foresee I am and will be definitely sticking to them. After there I will expand. I was thinking of taking a Master of Sanctity because they seem so great! Or would Grimaldus be a better option for that slot?

Remember that your army only gets LD-10 whilst your marshal is on the board. Personally, I find that Masters of Sanctity can be very hard hitters, Especially when outfitted correctly. Personally, I'd take a BP to gain the Extra attack with his Crozius and an AP2 CCW like a PF or TH. You don't reallly need to worry about his invul as it is adequate to get him to do his job. You do, however, need to worry about his save. TDA or Artificer Armour is a Must. Marshals seem to have become decidedly meh, for me at least. And if you are going to take a command squad for combat, It's PA all the way. TDA Command squads can be surprisingly underwhelming for their cost. The PA Command squad can take an apothecary and more gear on more guys.

Reference the Crusader Squads, Personally, I prefer to give the Neophytes Shotguns. Then you don't worry about losing them in combat as much and you get a higher rate of fire in Overwatch

Grimaldus, Like Helbrecht, is very expensive for what he does. It has been said before that our SCs suffer because of the older codex and that is most definitely true.

What were you going to give your Marshal, by the way? And what are you going to take in the way of Anti-Tank? It is the only thing noticeably lacking in my list.

 The Crusader wrote:
Remember that your army only gets LD-10 whilst your marshal is on the board. Personally, I find that Masters of Sanctity can be very hard hitters, Especially when outfitted correctly. Personally, I'd take a BP to gain the Extra attack with his Crozius and an AP2 CCW like a PF or TH. You don't reallly need to worry about his invul as it is adequate to get him to do his job. You do, however, need to worry about his save. TDA or Artificer Armour is a Must. Marshals seem to have become decidedly meh, for me at least. And if you are going to take a command squad for combat, It's PA all the way. TDA Command squads can be surprisingly underwhelming for their cost. The PA Command squad can take an apothecary and more gear on more guys.

Reference the Crusader Squads, Personally, I prefer to give the Neophytes Shotguns. Then you don't worry about losing them in combat as much and you get a higher rate of fire in Overwatch

Grimaldus, Like Helbrecht, is very expensive for what he does. It has been said before that our SCs suffer because of the older codex and that is most definitely true.

What were you going to give your Marshal, by the way? And what are you going to take in the way of Anti-Tank? It is the only thing noticeably lacking in my list.

Hmmm, I forgot Masters of Sanctity can take Artificer. Hmmm. I didn't know you could take a BP and a PF or TH, what happens to his crozius after that then? Wouldn't his crozius count as one of his two weapons? Also, simply out of curiosity, is it possible to master-craft one?

If I was to take a command squad, it would most certainly be PA over TDA. TDA squads are seriously lacking in personality and decent set-ups. whereas PA ones can take Termie Honours and hence any form of equipment they want, plus an Apothecary and Champ.

Alright I see what you mean. Give them shotguns so you won't be all to worried about them being used as cannon fodder. I might do that now actually.

I have noticed that about our BT SC's. It's unfortunate really. I guess I'll just stick to custom ones then, for now at least.

My Marshal was going to have TDA, pair of master-crafted LC, Bionics, Teleport Homer and an Adamantine Mantle I believe. I may swap the TDA for Artificer because of the new FAQ update saying if he has TDA he must take a TDA squad, can't take a PA one. For anti-Tank weaponry I was going to take meltas wherever possible. So Crusader Squads, Bikes, Attack Bikes, Speeders and the likes, all will have melta weapons where possible. I really like melta stuff from how it has participated in past games of mine.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

 The Crusader wrote:
Remember that your army only gets LD-10 whilst your marshal is on the board. Personally, I find that Masters of Sanctity can be very hard hitters, Especially when outfitted correctly. Personally, I'd take a BP to gain the Extra attack with his Crozius and an AP2 CCW like a PF or TH. You don't reallly need to worry about his invul as it is adequate to get him to do his job. You do, however, need to worry about his save. TDA or Artificer Armour is a Must. Marshals seem to have become decidedly meh, for me at least. And if you are going to take a command squad for combat, It's PA all the way. TDA Command squads can be surprisingly underwhelming for their cost. The PA Command squad can take an apothecary and more gear on more guys.

Reference the Crusader Squads, Personally, I prefer to give the Neophytes Shotguns. Then you don't worry about losing them in combat as much and you get a higher rate of fire in Overwatch

Grimaldus, Like Helbrecht, is very expensive for what he does. It has been said before that our SCs suffer because of the older codex and that is most definitely true.

What were you going to give your Marshal, by the way? And what are you going to take in the way of Anti-Tank? It is the only thing noticeably lacking in my list.

Hmmm, I forgot Masters of Sanctity can take Artificer. Hmmm. I didn't know you could take a BP and a PF or TH, what happens to his crozius after that then? Wouldn't his crozius count as one of his two weapons? Also, simply out of curiosity, is it possible to master-craft one?

If I was to take a command squad, it would most certainly be PA over TDA. TDA squads are seriously lacking in personality and decent set-ups. whereas PA ones can take Termie Honours and hence any form of equipment they want, plus an Apothecary and Champ.

Alright I see what you mean. Give them shotguns so you won't be all to worried about them being used as cannon fodder. I might do that now actually.

I have noticed that about our BT SC's. It's unfortunate really. I guess I'll just stick to custom ones then, for now at least.

My Marshal was going to have TDA, pair of master-crafted LC, Bionics, Teleport Homer and an Adamantine Mantle I believe. I may swap the TDA for Artificer because of the new FAQ update saying if he has TDA he must take a TDA squad, can't take a PA one. For anti-Tank weaponry I was going to take meltas wherever possible. So Crusader Squads, Bikes, Attack Bikes, Speeders and the likes, all will have melta weapons where possible. I really like melta stuff from how it has participated in past games of mine.

To answer your first question: Nothing. He can use his BP and Crozius or his PF. He doesn't lose either. It is possible, but a waste of time in my opinion Take Terminator Honours instead. That way he'll get 7 attacks on the charge with the Crozius, 6 with the PF.

I have had good times with a Command Squad, however, to make them worthwhile they will be very expensive. For a tooled-up Command Squad I think it's somewhere in the region of 300-400 points. You could get 2 Crusader Squads for that! You will want at least 1 Las/Plas Crusader squad for babysitting an objective and sniping tanks

The issues with your Marshal Build are the lack of 2+ killing ability other than the weight of attacks and his Invul. It has been said before and I'll say it again. Marshals are good, Chaplains are better. Bionics is a good upgrade but for the most part it is useless.

 The Crusader wrote:
To answer your first question: Nothing. He can use his BP and Crozius or his PF. He doesn't lose either. It is possible, but a waste of time in my opinion Take Terminator Honours instead. That way he'll get 7 attacks on the charge with the Crozius, 6 with the PF.

I have had good times with a Command Squad, however, to make them worthwhile they will be very expensive. For a tooled-up Command Squad I think it's somewhere in the region of 300-400 points. You could get 2 Crusader Squads for that! You will want at least 1 Las/Plas Crusader squad for babysitting an objective and sniping tanks

The issues with your Marshal Build are the lack of 2+ killing ability other than the weight of attacks and his Invul. It has been said before and I'll say it again. Marshals are good, Chaplains are better. Bionics is a good upgrade but for the most part it is useless.

I would have always gone with Terminator Honours. The +1 Attack is very good. I think I may go for a PA/AA Master of Sanctity and give him a PA command squad. Then I can take my Marshal with his TDA and not have to worry about an underpowered command squad for him.

I have noticed that. For a really good Command Squad set-up they seem to get very steep in terms of prices. It's a good unit to have in the end however, but I may not use one unless I play high point games.

What gives 2+ killing ability then? (I am still roughly new to playing so sorry for the noob question). Yes. I will always go for a Chaplain to begin with and only use my Marshal in larger games just like the PA command squad. Bionics is alright, it can be useless depending on luck but for a measly 5pts I will take it for the hell of it.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:


What gives 2+ killing ability then? (I am still roughly new to playing so sorry for the noob question). Yes. I will always go for a Chaplain to begin with and only use my Marshal in larger games just like the PA command squad. Bionics is alright, it can be useless depending on luck but for a measly 5pts I will take it for the hell of it.

Thunder Hammers or Powerfists. Your Chaplain needs one to survive in a challenge. It's why the EC struggles so much as a character killer; low toughness and no at-Init AP2 on him or army wide for that matter.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Pros-
+Terminator squads with tank hunters with the ability to run 5 terminators + 2 heavy weapons. (Assault cannons are great at this)
+Army wide buffs due to the Emperor's Champion.
+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)
+ 20 man troop choices. (10 Initiates 10 Neophytes)
+ LRC as dedicated transport
+ Special skills for sword brethren and command squads which can make some interesting army builds. (Furious charge, Infiltrate, Counter-Charge.)
+ Dreadnoughts just got buffed with Venerable upgrade. (Now WS 5 BS 5)
+ Cheap land speeder typhoons.
+ Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade for all their tanks.
+ Assault marines can have the option to buy melta bombs for everyone in the squad.
+ No sergeants except for command squad. (Good or Bad.)

You have to keep in mind this codex is old. Very old. They are not a forgiving army to use and can be rather frustrating at first.

Cons-
+ Zeal moves and pull scoring units off objectives or out in the open.
+ HQ choices stat lines are not up to par with other SM codex stat lines. (WS5 vs WS6)
+ We still have to buy all the extra equipment such as assault grenades and krak grenades.
+ Age of the codex really shows compared to other SM Codices. (Lack of decent special characters.)

YES! Thank you EmperorsChampion for that definitive list. Can you point me to the most recent errata FAQ for the BT, I never seem to keep track of these things so things in the 'dex may have changed. I know the codex is old, that doesn't really bother me as much as others, it just gives me more time learning how to use them and building them up before I get the new one sometime next year (as it is rumoured, pinch of salt as always). I was going to have a Marshal with twin Lightning Claws and an Adamantine Mantle, more because I like Lightning Claws as a weapon both in-fluff and in-game.I think I may take my Crusader Squads as 10 Initiates and then 5 Neophytes, so they can fit in a Crusader and the few Neophytes can act as bullet shields. Any tactics perhaps? How to use what? and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are Assault Marines worth it? I heard because C: BA have them as troops and they can have flamer loudouts they are worth it, I also heard C: SM is useless for them. How is C: BT for Assault Marines? I also want to know what weapon loudouts are useful for Crusader squads. I was thinking of running meltas in my list for lots of wounds that negate armour saves, but I don't quite know.

No problem man, anyways onto your questions.

BT assault marines and be iffy. They get a bonous with the rage if the AAC vow is used. Not only that but they get Hammer of Wrath added to their assault. So you are looking at 5 attacks per model on the charge. Take a cheap chaplin and have him lead them, they become a very hard hitting unit.

Crusader squads on the other hand, I run three main types of them.
Bolter Crusader squads: Multi-melta, melta and bolters mounted in a drop pod.
Mix Crusader Squads: 7 Initiates with BP/CCW, Melta gun, PF or PW and 3 neophytes numbering 10 models mounted in a rhino. (If there are extra points, I will just fill the squad with Initiates.)
Big Crusader Squads: 10 Initiates with BP/CCW, MG, PF and 4 Neophtyes mounted in a LRC. I will almost always stick the EC in with this unit. If I am running a chaplain I will drop 1 more neophtye to make room.

Darrett wrote:

 crimsonfist832 wrote:


What gives 2+ killing ability then? (I am still roughly new to playing so sorry for the noob question). Yes. I will always go for a Chaplain to begin with and only use my Marshal in larger games just like the PA command squad. Bionics is alright, it can be useless depending on luck but for a measly 5pts I will take it for the hell of it.

Thunder Hammers or Powerfists. Your Chaplain needs one to survive in a challenge. It's why the EC struggles so much as a character killer; low toughness and no at-Init AP2 on him or army wide for that matter.

Ah right, well thank you Darrett.

EmperorsChampion wrote:

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Pros-
+Terminator squads with tank hunters with the ability to run 5 terminators + 2 heavy weapons. (Assault cannons are great at this)
+Army wide buffs due to the Emperor's Champion.
+Resilient HQ war gear options. For 185 points you and run a nasty Marshal and ignores instant death from high strength weapons. (TH/SS, Terminator Armor, Mantle.)
+ 20 man troop choices. (10 Initiates 10 Neophytes)
+ LRC as dedicated transport
+ Special skills for sword brethren and command squads which can make some interesting army builds. (Furious charge, Infiltrate, Counter-Charge.)
+ Dreadnoughts just got buffed with Venerable upgrade. (Now WS 5 BS 5)
+ Cheap land speeder typhoons.
+ Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade for all their tanks.
+ Assault marines can have the option to buy melta bombs for everyone in the squad.
+ No sergeants except for command squad. (Good or Bad.)

You have to keep in mind this codex is old. Very old. They are not a forgiving army to use and can be rather frustrating at first.

Cons-
+ Zeal moves and pull scoring units off objectives or out in the open.
+ HQ choices stat lines are not up to par with other SM codex stat lines. (WS5 vs WS6)
+ We still have to buy all the extra equipment such as assault grenades and krak grenades.
+ Age of the codex really shows compared to other SM Codices. (Lack of decent special characters.)

YES! Thank you EmperorsChampion for that definitive list. Can you point me to the most recent errata FAQ for the BT, I never seem to keep track of these things so things in the 'dex may have changed. I know the codex is old, that doesn't really bother me as much as others, it just gives me more time learning how to use them and building them up before I get the new one sometime next year (as it is rumoured, pinch of salt as always). I was going to have a Marshal with twin Lightning Claws and an Adamantine Mantle, more because I like Lightning Claws as a weapon both in-fluff and in-game.I think I may take my Crusader Squads as 10 Initiates and then 5 Neophytes, so they can fit in a Crusader and the few Neophytes can act as bullet shields. Any tactics perhaps? How to use what? and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are Assault Marines worth it? I heard because C: BA have them as troops and they can have flamer loudouts they are worth it, I also heard C: SM is useless for them. How is C: BT for Assault Marines? I also want to know what weapon loudouts are useful for Crusader squads. I was thinking of running meltas in my list for lots of wounds that negate armour saves, but I don't quite know.

No problem man, anyways onto your questions.

BT assault marines and be iffy. They get a bonous with the rage if the AAC vow is used. Not only that but they get Hammer of Wrath added to their assault. So you are looking at 5 attacks per model on the charge. Take a cheap chaplin and have him lead them, they become a very hard hitting unit.

Crusader squads on the other hand, I run three main types of them.
Bolter Crusader squads: Multi-melta, melta and bolters mounted in a drop pod.
Mix Crusader Squads: 7 Initiates with BP/CCW, Melta gun, PF or PW and 3 neophytes numbering 10 models mounted in a rhino. (If there are extra points, I will just fill the squad with Initiates.)
Big Crusader Squads: 10 Initiates with BP/CCW, MG, PF and 4 Neophtyes mounted in a LRC. I will almost always stick the EC in with this unit. If I am running a chaplain I will drop 1 more neophtye to make room.

Would it be useful giving my Assault Marines melta bombs should I take them? Skirt them around and use them to harass and destroy my opponent's armour? I will take a Chaplain with them, Chaplains will feature heavily in my army I believe

Hmm. I like the sound of your Bolter Crusader Squad (because of the melta use really hah) but I was thinking of going with the 10 Initites and 5 (or 4 if there is a character attached) Neophytes with CC weapons and melta stuff for excess wounding, and also the CC and BP combo gives +1 Attack doesn't it? So, on the charge and with AAC that is 4 Attacks per marine/scout (I do think it's 4 but I could be wrong). What advantage is there to running them with bolters? Other than the obvious extra power in Overwatch.

More shots at long range.

Also it is 4 on the charge with the Initiates. However, Neophytes are not included in that so they would only receive 2/3 depending on their gear.

 The Crusader wrote:
More shots at long range.

Also it is 4 on the charge with the Initiates. However, Neophytes are not included in that so they would only receive 2/3 depending on their gear.

Oh alright then.

Oh yes, pardon me. I forgot Neophytes don't benefit from the Vows, so AAC would hold no effect.

So if I was to ask, what would people advise to go for. A bolter or a CC Crusader Squad(s)?

I run one of each, with at least two Las/Plas 5 man squads for fire support.

Crusader Squad 1 is 10 Initiates with BPs/CCW (1 PF), 4 Neophytes with shotguns, and the EC in a LRC.
Crusader Squad 2 is 8 Initiates with Bolters, MM and MG in a drop pod.
Two squads of 5 Initiates with PG and LC.
One squad of 5 Initiates with LC and Marshal.

Depending on game size, add in a Terminator Assault squad with the Chaplain in Terminator Armor in a second LRC, Predator, and a couple of Land Speeder Typhoons with Heavy Bolters.

I have a very CQC army. As a general rule, My longest range weapon is usually 24".

Although CQC may be harder to pull off and much less devastating than it was in 5th, it is not obsolete, not yet. If you want to run an army similar to mine, you must believe that any combat is a good combat. You should have a mentality like this:

Certain death. Minuscule chance of success. What are you waiting for?

I run a pair of LRCs with the following in each:

Master of Sanctity and a large Crusader Squad, About 13/14 in total

As above but with the Emperor's Champion instead of the MoS

Darrett wrote:I run one of each, with at least two Las/Plas 5 man squads for fire support.

Crusader Squad 1 is 10 Initiates with BPs/CCW (1 PF), 4 Neophytes with shotguns, and the EC in a LRC.
Crusader Squad 2 is 8 Initiates with Bolters, MM and MG in a drop pod.
Two squads of 5 Initiates with PG and LC.
One squad of 5 Initiates with LC and Marshal.

Depending on game size, add in a Terminator Assault squad with the Chaplain in Terminator Armor in a second LRC, Predator, and a couple of Land Speeder Typhoons with Heavy Bolters.

Hmm alright then, cheers for that snippet of help Darrett.

The Crusader wrote:I have a very CQC army. As a general rule, My longest range weapon is usually 24".

Although CQC may be harder to pull off and much less devastating than it was in 5th, it is not obsolete, not yet. If you want to run an army similar to mine, you must believe that any combat is a good combat. You should have a mentality like this:

Certain death. Minuscule chance of success. What are you waiting for?

I run a pair of LRCs with the following in each:

Master of Sanctity and a large Crusader Squad, About 13/14 in total

As above but with the Emperor's Champion instead of the MoS

Hmm yeh. I only ever played 2 500pt 5th ed games and I am preety sure me and my friend messed up the rules too hah so I wouldn't really notice any change. From the combats I've participated in, in my 6th ed games however, they have been brutal with deaths going left, right and centre. I do like combat and I always run straight into it when presented with the opportunity so I do wonder how the BT haven't took my attention to begin with. With Land Raider Crusader transports my squads may even get across the board quicker and safer which is always best.

I may very well pair my Chaplains/Emperor Champion to my squads. I think my warlord will be a Master of Sanctity for now, and I'll use a Marshal in larger games. My MoS will join a Reclusiam command squad in a Crusader and the other HQ's will be attached to other squads (well, that is only an EC and a chappy until I hit 2000pts).

Hey guys, hope you don't mind a 'newb' cutting into a pro discussion.

Would a LRC loaded with 9 Initiates, 5 Neophytes, EC and MoS do well for a 1K game? Basically just ferry them to the front, dump them and hit stuff.

Also, how does RZ actually work. From what i read it's when you lose a model (once per squad), you roll a D6 and whatever rolls is how far you move. Am I right? Or is it a fixed amount?

Righteous Zeal works just like a normal morale test except you always test for morale if you lose a model, not just if you lose 25%. If you pass the test, you consolidate D6" towards the nearest enemy unit (or any enemy unit if there's a Chaplain in the squad).

I've got a tournament ipcoming in about a month and I intend to demonstrate that LRCs aren't quite dead yet; with everyone switching away from melta over to plasma, Autocannons and other volume of fire weapons an AV14 box of doom might cause a lot of havoc.

Or I'll be tabled. Who knows?

Good Luck, AlmightyWalrus! I hope it fares you well.

HellJumper, The problem with "deathstar" tactics is that ours aren't exceptional. They have the potential, but it is hard to pull off. Ours usually average at good to average, instead of excellent.

 The Crusader wrote:
Good Luck, AlmightyWalrus! I hope it fares you well.

HellJumper, The problem with "deathstar" tactics is that ours aren't exceptional. They have the potential, but it is hard to pull off. Ours usually average at good to average, instead of excellent.

On the other hand we arguably have the best TH/SS Terminators in the game. Those guys kill stuff dead.

The Crusader, 'deathstar' refers to having a squad of units going around hitting stuff right?

AlmightyWalrus, why do we have the best TH/SS Terminators?

Access to Rage while remaining 40 PPM with the ability to take either FC or Tank Hunters, although the last part doesn't really matter too often. TH/SS Terminators with Rage for 40 PPM is pretty scary.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:


Oh alright. They removed it from the 6th ed rulebook? Hmm, that puts things into a perspective. I heard rumours though that they aren't actually getting rolled into Codex: Space Marines and that they are still going to have a new codex. Black Templars have so much more to give than say, the Blood Angels, in terms of being unique and definitely warrant their own codex. Hmmm, anybody know of any units that are worthwhile then?

Because BT were not an OG Chapter, but an experiment to create a new chapter to see how it takes. It didn't... it isn't bad, but all the FW stuff and stuff to make it to unique broke to far off from what marines were about. The big four OG Chapters that have been big since 1st ed are DA, BA, SW, And Ultramarines. They probably should be added to Vannilla Marines, but having to waste a HQ for a army type kinda sucks and should be changed.

HellJumper wrote:
The Crusader, 'deathstar' refers to having a squad of units going around hitting stuff right?

AlmightyWalrus, why do we have the best TH/SS Terminators?

A "Deathstar" is a single unit in which you place all of your hopes. Very much an 'All or nothing' tactic. An example of such a tactic would be a 10 man Assault Terminator Squad with a Marshal, Master of Sanctity and the EC. It'll hit like a megaton of bricks but is it dies, you're screwed.

 BlkTom wrote:
Because BT were not an OG Chapter, but an experiment to create a new chapter to see how it takes. It didn't... it isn't bad, but all the FW stuff and stuff to make it to unique broke to far off from what marines were about. The big four OG Chapters that have been big since 1st ed are DA, BA, SW, And Ultramarines. They probably should be added to Vannilla Marines, but having to waste a HQ for a army type kinda sucks and should be changed.

Look, I am sorry if I come across as offensive or snippy with this, but here it goes. Why did you just come onto my thread asking for BT tactics only to complain that BT should be rolled into the Vanilla 'dex? What is the point? The thread makes no mention about this (as in I haven't asked about this, I have sought out tactics). Why would you come on here and do that? It's just off. The BT have more flavour and individuality to bring to the table than the BA. To me, all the BA add to the table are Assaults for TROOPS, that and only that. Yes, they have the DC but that is such a small unit that was originally there's if you compare it to the DA's ability to have Deathwing and Ravenwing or the entire cultured unique flair that the SW have going on. And as for that 'waste a HQ' if you are referring to the EC then no, you don't HAVE to waste a HQ slot on him because he is not a part of the standard FOC when it comes to picking him, you just require to have one in your army that is 750pts+. I don't think it sucks, and I am preety sure there are a few people out there who think likewise.

Oh the Zeal. Thats why I fething love this chapter.

This thread has been really helpful and made me get some of my hopes back up..

I've been wanting to start a BT army for a while but was a little bummed when they (to my mind) changed the focus of the army from Assaulty Assaulty to Standy and Shooty (especially with the furious charge change in 6th). Almost looked at other chapters... *heresy*
Next stop BT.

Just have to paint a boatload of fething dudesmen to finish my IG regiment first..

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Access to Rage while remaining 40 PPM with the ability to take either FC or Tank Hunters, although the last part doesn't really matter too often. TH/SS Terminators with Rage for 40 PPM is pretty scary.

Been looking through the Codex and I can't find this 'Rage' you're talking about. (I don't have Warhammer 40K rulebook yet)

Could you elaborate?

HellJumper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Access to Rage while remaining 40 PPM with the ability to take either FC or Tank Hunters, although the last part doesn't really matter too often. TH/SS Terminators with Rage for 40 PPM is pretty scary.

Been looking through the Codex and I can't find this 'Rage' you're talking about. (I don't have Warhammer 40K rulebook yet)

Could you elaborate?

It's the "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds" vow, which states that it grants army-wide preferred enemy in the codex. The FAQ (unfortunately) changed it to rage with the advent of 6th ed. Personally I would rather take preferred enemy, but it works pretty well with a close combat focused army in raiders.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
Because BT were not an OG Chapter, but an experiment to create a new chapter to see how it takes. It didn't... it isn't bad, but all the FW stuff and stuff to make it to unique broke to far off from what marines were about. The big four OG Chapters that have been big since 1st ed are DA, BA, SW, And Ultramarines. They probably should be added to Vannilla Marines, but having to waste a HQ for a army type kinda sucks and should be changed.

Look, I am sorry if I come across as offensive or snippy with this, but here it goes. Why did you just come onto my thread asking for BT tactics only to complain that BT should be rolled into the Vanilla 'dex? What is the point? The thread makes no mention about this (as in I haven't asked about this, I have sought out tactics). Why would you come on here and do that? It's just off. The BT have more flavour and individuality to bring to the table than the BA. To me, all the BA add to the table are Assaults for TROOPS, that and only that. Yes, they have the DC but that is such a small unit that was originally there's if you compare it to the DA's ability to have Deathwing and Ravenwing or the entire cultured unique flair that the SW have going on. And as for that 'waste a HQ' if you are referring to the EC then no, you don't HAVE to waste a HQ slot on him because he is not a part of the standard FOC when it comes to picking him, you just require to have one in your army that is 750pts+. I don't think it sucks, and I am preety sure there are a few people out there who think likewise.

Read your own post, as I am simply answering your question. Your the one who mentioned the Vannilla Codex and I am telling you why that thinking is probably correct and I am agreeing it sucks. Because if BT where folded into the Vanilla Codex, you would have to waste a HQ slot to play them (Fists, White Scars, Ravenguard, ect). I am also telling you why BA and the other 3 Chapters will always be more popular. I am sorry you do not like the answer, but they are truthful.

Pretty much, your responce tells me you don't own the Vannilla Marine codex. If you did, you would have understood this responce better.

 BlkTom wrote:

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
Because BT were not an OG Chapter, but an experiment to create a new chapter to see how it takes. It didn't... it isn't bad, but all the FW stuff and stuff to make it to unique broke to far off from what marines were about. The big four OG Chapters that have been big since 1st ed are DA, BA, SW, And Ultramarines. They probably should be added to Vannilla Marines, but having to waste a HQ for a army type kinda sucks and should be changed.

Look, I am sorry if I come across as offensive or snippy with this, but here it goes. Why did you just come onto my thread asking for BT tactics only to complain that BT should be rolled into the Vanilla 'dex? What is the point? The thread makes no mention about this (as in I haven't asked about this, I have sought out tactics). Why would you come on here and do that? It's just off. The BT have more flavour and individuality to bring to the table than the BA. To me, all the BA add to the table are Assaults for TROOPS, that and only that. Yes, they have the DC but that is such a small unit that was originally there's if you compare it to the DA's ability to have Deathwing and Ravenwing or the entire cultured unique flair that the SW have going on. And as for that 'waste a HQ' if you are referring to the EC then no, you don't HAVE to waste a HQ slot on him because he is not a part of the standard FOC when it comes to picking him, you just require to have one in your army that is 750pts+. I don't think it sucks, and I am preety sure there are a few people out there who think likewise.

Read your own post, as I am simply answering your question. Your the one who mentioned the Vannilla Codex and I am telling you why that thinking is probably correct and I am agreeing it sucks. Because if BT where folded into the Vanilla Codex, you would have to waste a HQ slot to play them (Fists, White Scars, Ravenguard, ect). I am also telling you why BA and the other 3 Chapters will always be more popular. I am sorry you do not like the answer, but they are truthful.

Pretty much, your responce tells me you don't own the Vannilla Marine codex. If you did, you would have understood this responce better.

Are you answering my question though? I do actually own the Vanilla 'dex.

BT was wrecking face back in 4th edition days. Editions and armies get updated, armies get left behind. GW sucks, not BT. A good list and a good player behind it does just fine. We have a solid and rabid fanbase and were not going anywhere.

Meanwhile, back to "Black Templar Pros" and helping OP out with positive input......

Taking a mandatory EC isnt a bad thing. However, he needs to be utilized properly to not be waste. Tailor your list around his vows. AAC is great all around and its what I usually use. Taking suffer is great to shave a couple points and make melee units a little more versatile if you dont think youll take the charge. Those are the two most useful vows IMHO. EC is a hopped up Sarge but once again, utilized properly he will chew through MEQ and that should always be his target.

As far as AAC Rage is concerned, I think it's a welcome change. Here is my reasoning: since EC cannot count as a Warlord, it almost makes a Chaplain mandatory (unless youre running gunline then take a properly kitted Marshall). Bringing that Chappy is going to give you miss re-rolls ON TOP OF the +2 charge attacks from Rage. This simply comes out to more attacks that are getting rerolled anyways, whereas Pref Enemy was just a reroll off a standard charge (and also didnt affect the Neos like a Chappy does). Add his ability to RZ at ANY enemy (not just the one who shot you, to set up fake-out charges) and Ceno RZ inches it just makes sense to me. I still run melee and I take a Chappy every time.