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Hey guys, just a quick question.

In terms of artillery pieces, Im unsure what to use. The big two choices that im looking at are either a pair of Manticores, or a trio of Basilisks.

Im liking the look of the Manticore duo because it can do anything; kill hordes, strip hull points, eat transport, smack marines, etc. However, im also liking the look of the Basilisks, because although they dont deap with hordes as well, they can pulp marines, and have a fair time dealing with vehicles; there is also three of them, thus greater armour saturation and less damage if I lose one.

With my main opponents running Chaos Marine/Ork, Footslogging Immortals and space wolves/blood angels, should I choose the Basilisks?

Also, I thought Id add that if I choose the Manticores, I have enough points for Marbo, and an astropath.

From personal experience I'd chose Basilisks over Manticores if you have the points available to squeeze them in. The fact that you are guaranteed 3 shots over 1/3 chance of 3 shots add a lot of reliability and AP3 is crucial if you want to kill MEQs.

Basilisks do derp hordes and more consistently so than the manticore...

However, have you considered taking 2 basilisks and maybe a Medusa rather than 3 basilisks?

While you can get good use out of Basilisks, I'd like to put in a little personal suggestion for the Medusa. It's only 10 points more expensive, but is S10 AP2 instead of S9 AP3. This allows you to ID T5 modes (Chaos Spawn, Obliterators, Plague Marines, Chaos Bikers w/ Icon of Excess, Nob Bikers, Deffkoptas, Grotesques, Ogryn, and more) while ignoring their armor save. Just as importantly, it gives you +1 to your damage chart results, which doubles your odds of blowing up a closed-topped vehicle outright.

It doesn't fire barrage, though, so you're not going to be able to ignore LoS cover as easily, nor will you be able to fire without LoS. It's also got a more limited 36" range, so you'll want to deploy it centrally. AV12 vehicles took a bit of a durability nerf with the hull point change, but this comes with being able to fire more reliably (fewer shaken/stunned results). I think if you give it a 4+ cover save, either from natural ruins or a piece of your aegis line, it'll do fine.

I'd actually reccomend the Colossus.

Ignore cover is HUGE and with AP3 in the mix it's excellent for knocking down MEQ.

If you can afford it, take two batteries of 1 Griffon and 1 Colossus, use the Griffon to Rangefind, with rerolled hits, and then plop down your Barrage Str 6 AP 3 Ignoring Cover pie plate.

Most Marines are dying on a 2+.

Using a Griffon to rangefind does not make your subsequent barrage more accurate. A flipped pie plate adds 5" of displacement.

2d6-3 averages 4" of displacement. You are less accurate with an initial Griffon shot than you are with just firing the Colossus outright.

Also, both the Colossus and the Griffon give up any credible anti-tank threat, which is a huge part of the appeal of Manticores, Basilisks, and Medusas. They might be more cost-effective against infantry (in some specific scenarios), but neither is so much more effective that it's worth losing the ability to take out Necron Quantum Shielding or drop a Land Raider two hull points.

Corollax wrote:
Using a Griffon to rangefind does not make your subsequent barrage more accurate. A flipped pie plate adds 5" of displacement.

2d6-3 averages 4" of displacement. You are less accurate with an initial Griffon shot than you are with just firing the Colossus outright.

Also, both the Colossus and the Griffon give up any credible anti-tank threat, which is a huge part of the appeal of Manticores, Basilisks, and Medusas. They might be more cost-effective against infantry (in some specific scenarios), but neither is so much more effective that it's worth losing the ability to take out Necron Quantum Shielding or drop a Land Raider two hull points.

Which is why Im looking at Bassies rather than Colossi. Also, I realised that if I put my CCS in a vendetta rather than a chimera, I can also afford Marbo in a 3 bassie loadout, which means that I break even on armour saturation

tracer wrote:

Basilisks do derp hordes and more consistently so than the manticore...

Sorry how exactly is the basilisk more consistent? They both have a minimum of one blast, yet on average the manticore will have 2. I don't see how that makes the basilisk anything other than as consistent, and at worst less consistent.

I'm voting for a manticore and a medusa. Basilisks suffer from ap3 which personally I can't stand. It is weaker when it pens and if your opponent has any sense they'll be in cover most of the time anyway. The manticore is better at killing everything except MEQ, and when you need to strip hull points, those str10 d3 hits are fantastic. Couple that with a medusa or two and you have your anti-MEQ and TEQ covered as well as some beastly antitank with the ap2.

The basilisk suffers from just not being all that special.

Basilisks are like the biggest Missile Launcher. AP3 is this awkward not quite good enough.
I'm cool with it not toasting terminators, but the lack of bonus on the damage table is a deal breaker. It doesn't multi-task well enough.

If you want to kill AP3 use the Colossus.
If you want to kill Armor, use Manticore or Medusa.
If you want accurate cheap anti-horde use griffon.

The Basilisk is over-priced and under-performs for its cost.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Basilisks are like the biggest Missile Launcher. AP3 is this awkward not quite good enough.
I'm cool with it not toasting terminators, but the lack of bonus on the damage table is a deal breaker. It doesn't multi-task well enough.

At first I was going to immediately disagree with you, but thinking about it for a while, it did lose something in translation to 6th edition...
Instadeath model sniping is nice, and AP3 is more than enough to snipe out a sarge/librarian/special weapon guy.

All of the other heavy support tend to have rather nasty drawbacks too though:

If you want to kill AP3 use the Colossus.

Very limited kill zone. No direct fire.

If you want to kill Armor, use Manticore or Medusa.

Medusa is direct fire only. Manticore is awesome, but not squadronable. (minor complaint)

If you want accurate cheap anti-horde use griffon.

With heavy bolters and multilasers like they're going out of style, is anti-horde really a concern?

The Basilisk is over-priced and under-performs for its cost.

It is less so the effective catch-all weapon that it was before, but I think it's still a decent generalist option, especially if you play on boards that have LOS blocking cover. You don't give it credit when you liken it to a missile launcher. It's far closer to a bigger battlecannon.

 Griddlelol wrote:

tracer wrote:

Basilisks do derp hordes and more consistently so than the manticore...

Sorry how exactly is the basilisk more consistent? They both have a minimum of one blast, yet on average the manticore will have 2. I don't see how that makes the basilisk anything other than as consistent, and at worst less consistent.

I'm voting for a manticore and a medusa. Basilisks suffer from ap3 which personally I can't stand. It is weaker when it pens and if your opponent has any sense they'll be in cover most of the time anyway. The manticore is better at killing everything except MEQ, and when you need to strip hull points, those str10 d3 hits are fantastic. Couple that with a medusa or two and you have your anti-MEQ and TEQ covered as well as some beastly antitank with the ap2.

The basilisk suffers from just not being all that special.

Sorry, but basilisks plural, he was talking about 1 manticore versus 3 basilisks, so a guaranteed 3-barrage versus a possible 3-barrage... Should have been more clear

...and i realize now he said 2 manticore...

Should know better than answering posts jetlagged..

tracer wrote:


Sorry, but basilisks plural, he was talking about 1 manticore versus 3 basilisks, so a guaranteed 3-barrage versus a possible 3-barrage... Should have been more clear

Yeah I shouldn't skim so much, totally didn't notice the plural. Still it's not an entirely fair comparison. 3 basilisks cost more than 2 manticore.

Two Manticores are better than 3 Basilisks.

Two Medusas are better than either.

 Griddlelol wrote:

tracer wrote:


Sorry, but basilisks plural, he was talking about 1 manticore versus 3 basilisks, so a guaranteed 3-barrage versus a possible 3-barrage... Should have been more clear

Yeah I shouldn't skim so much, totally didn't notice the plural. Still it's not an entirely fair comparison. 3 basilisks cost more than 2 manticore.

Yeah, shouldn't skim so much either

I actually like the basilisks better than the manticores. On average, you only get one fewer blast (though, as others have mentioned, you have a minimum of three blasts with the basilisks, compared to 2 for the manticores), and aren't that much worse against vehicles (because neither are particularly awesome), but you do have the ability to hurt 3+ much, much better, as you say. It feels like anything you need two manticores to handle, you can handle with three basilisks, with that extra side benefit of Ap.

As for medusas, they're also not bad. In you're case, though, they're not going to be as good. You're saying that your usual opponents are going to be mostly foot stuff, and in that role the basilisks will likely be better what with barrage rules.

 Ailaros wrote:
I actually like the basilisks better than the manticores. On average, you only get one fewer blast (though, as others have mentioned, you have a minimum of three blasts with the basilisks, compared to 2 for the manticores), and aren't that much worse against vehicles (because neither are particularly awesome), but you do have the ability to hurt 3+ much, much better, as you say. It feels like anything you need two manticores to handle, you can handle with three basilisks, with that extra side benefit of Ap.

As for medusas, they're also not bad. In you're case, though, they're not going to be as good. You're saying that your usual opponents are going to be mostly foot stuff, and in that role the basilisks will likely be better what with barrage rules.

This
And don't forget that the basilisks free up an extra HS slot compared to two manticores..

 Ailaros wrote:
I actually like the basilisks better than the manticores. On average, you only get one fewer blast (though, as others have mentioned, you have a minimum of three blasts with the basilisks, compared to 2 for the manticores), and aren't that much worse against vehicles (because neither are particularly awesome), but you do have the ability to hurt 3+ much, much better, as you say. It feels like anything you need two manticores to handle, you can handle with three basilisks, with that extra side benefit of Ap.

As for medusas, they're also not bad. In you're case, though, they're not going to be as good. You're saying that your usual opponents are going to be mostly foot stuff, and in that role the basilisks will likely be better what with barrage rules.

On this note, firing inside my minimum range with a barrage weapon means I get no reduction on the scatter, like the Master of Ordnance, correct?

:EDIT:

Also, can the MoO can fire every turn?

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
I actually like the basilisks better than the manticores. On average, you only get one fewer blast (though, as others have mentioned, you have a minimum of three blasts with the basilisks, compared to 2 for the manticores), and aren't that much worse against vehicles (because neither are particularly awesome), but you do have the ability to hurt 3+ much, much better, as you say. It feels like anything you need two manticores to handle, you can handle with three basilisks, with that extra side benefit of Ap.

As for medusas, they're also not bad. In you're case, though, they're not going to be as good. You're saying that your usual opponents are going to be mostly foot stuff, and in that role the basilisks will likely be better what with barrage rules.

On this note, firing inside my minimum range with a barrage weapon means I get no reduction on the scatter, like the Master of Ordnance, correct?

That's correct, so if you can position them at the back it helps...

 Ailaros wrote:
And aren't that much worse against vehicles

I disagree with that. I even remember you mentioning at one point how people (not exact quote) "Underestimate the +1 strength that Pask brings" and how it makes a "big difference to penetration." That strength 10, and on average 2 hits makes it my land raider killer. My manticore consistently strips hull points, which (not a fair comparison due to the 2d6 of the basilisk, but close enough) my lascannons can't seem to do.

Ailaros wrote:but you do have the ability to hurt 3+ much, much better, as you say. It feels like anything you need two manticores to handle, you can handle with three basilisks, with that extra side benefit of Ap.

I wasn't saying he needs two manticores, I was merely saying they're better. The AP3 just doesn't cut it. I mean, most lists have plenty of MEQ killing power (I'm pretty sure OP is running plasma vets), so the whole "gotta stuff those marines!" doesn't really matter as much as everyone thinks. With my mech vet list (which has far more melta than most lists I see in the army list section) I am not really concerned about MEQ. They die fairly rapidly from the 30" to 12" range from my troops. Something that I'm already taking, and putting to excellent use.
I just feel that the HS section should be spent on doing something my troops section aren't that good at - namely KO'ing Land Raiders from turn 1, wiping out swathes of hordes from turn 1 (again turn 1 is key) or in the case of the Medusa, smashing up 2+ saves and tanks.

Ailaros wrote:As for medusas, they're also not bad. In you're case, though, they're not going to be as good. You're saying that your usual opponents are going to be mostly foot stuff, and in that role the basilisks will likely be better what with barrage rules.

Medusas will do stuff to foot lists that basilisks can't dream of. Nob bikers, paladins, tough ICs, TMCs, TWC, PMs, vehicles. All those horrible threats that I really don't want to get to my line the medusa will remove them in one fell swoop, but the basilisk will only slap around a little.

tracer wrote:

And don't forget that the basilisks free up an extra HS slot compared to two manticores.

I guess, if you want them shooting at the same target, and with less accuracy.

Edit: Good Lord! Don't take the MoO. Maybe once in 10 games he'll do something, but every other time he's a waste of 30pts and means your CCS can't move.

Griddlelol wrote:I even remember you mentioning at one point how people (not exact quote) "Underestimate the +1 strength that Pask brings" and how it makes a "big difference to penetration."

Sure, but we weren't talking about ordnance. Both manticores and basilisks hit side armor, both are high strength, and both are ordnance. That +1S isn't making as big of a difference.

Even against a land raider, a manticore pens on a 5 vs. the basilisks' 6. That's not a very big difference when we're talking about 2D6. Better, sure, but not knock it out of the park better.

Griddlelol wrote:I just feel that the HS section should be spent on doing something my troops section aren't that good at - namely KO'ing Land Raiders

Sure, and I've been liking me my vanquishers as of late as well. That said, look at what the OP is facing against. CSM, orks, footcrons and BA. Not going to be a whole lot of land raiders going on in that, while there's probably going to be more that the 3+ will be good against.

If the OP is facing against people who are bringing a lot of T5 infantry, then yeah, take the medusa rather than either of the other two. If they're not though, I'd still give the edge to the basilisks.

Thanks for all the input guys, always grateful when you to really pick apart a unit for analysis

Ive settled on a trio of Baslisks over the manticores for my list, for two reasons;

1. Greater armour saturation. After playing a few smaller games, Ive realised that I would rather be packing lots of threatening units rather than just a few. I can also squadron these in larger games to make room for more tanks.

2. Great versatility (in my eyes at least). At a slight sacrifice in armour killing (which melta vets and vendettas can cover), my HS becomes better at mauling marines; assuming say..... 4 hits per template and 5+ cover, Id rather have 4.167 dead marines than between 1.389 and 4.167. That lower variable makes me want to shy towards the more reliable looking option of the two units. I still wound most things on 2s, and being able to munch through PA is nice

I don't really like the artillery options other than the manticore but you'll rarely want two of them. More than one and they begin to compete for targets. They do have a decent handful of targets but a well balanced list should be using the manticore to complement it. The manticores main focus in my force is vehicles and large groups of infantry. I'm always happy I brought it but never gone home wishing I had another.

The basilisk is a very multipurpose gun. It's the LRBT of the artillery in my mind. If you don't lack in any other area, it makes a great addition but more focused units generally fair better.

I'd second the Collosus. A very good anti-infantry gun built to take on marines. It can pose a threat to light vehicles too.

As for the medusa, I find it a one shot wonder which has no place in my list. It needs line of sight to fire and with it's weak armor, if it misses then you'll be sorry you took it.

I'd reccomend a single manticore and either a pair of collosus if you face marines a lot, or a pair of basilisk if you feel you have a nicely balanced list already.