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 Kugel wrote:
Guys, think that all this thread is all about: oh, my, Helldrake is so awesome. I think you must not. In one of the articles in White Dwarf was speeach about cost of Striking Scorpions in Tau army. They must be 30 pts per model for Tau, but 20 pts for Khorne Army CSM. My own helldrake DIES every game after first turn. I, myself, killed enemies Vendettas every turn with obliterators, or just push them off board, becose they need to Evade to live.
I LOL to hear from c:sm players that Helldrake is cheese. Guys, take 6*5 marines in your razorbacks with twin-linked lcannon (God, how i WANT RAZORBACKS!!!), take 6 gakking tiphoon speeders!!! Overal firepower from this units will bring ANY flier to ground without great loss.
I play twise per month with my close friends. And this is hard for my CSM gunline army becose they bring IG with 2 vendettas, or GK with tons of firepower and i can tell you, just simple poper use of your own army can help a lot.

You're kidding, right?

TL lascannons will only inflict .15 HP of damage against a heldrake. 6 of them will inflict .88 HP. You just spent 450 points to do less than 1 HP per turn against a single heldrake. It's effectively worthless.

 Exergy wrote:

 StormK wrote:
Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice? I was thinking the BS of 5 and 2 Kheres Assault cannons that's 12 shots with the AA mount special rule if it is stationary. But Kheres is a S6 weapon so it would have to get the Helldrake in the rear armor...

24" range and it has to remain stationary to gain skyfire. Flyers can usually avoid your dread.

The 12 str6 shots are awesome, just not nessisarrily as an AA option.

Yeah... making you avoid that 48" bubble (24" in every direction around the walker) is worth the points. Avoid the dread. He's just rendered you ineffective.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 StormK wrote:
Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice? I was thinking the BS of 5 and 2 Kheres Assault cannons that's 12 shots with the AA mount special rule if it is stationary. But Kheres is a S6 weapon so it would have to get the Helldrake in the rear armor...

24" range and it has to remain stationary to gain skyfire. Flyers can usually avoid your dread.

The 12 str6 shots are awesome, just not nessisarrily as an AA option.

Yeah... making you avoid that 48" bubble (24" in every direction around the walker) is worth the points. Avoid the dread. He's just rendered you ineffective.

perhaps against a heldrake

but what happens when that squadron of vendettas comes in and shoots whatever they like with their 48" guns?

 Exergy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 StormK wrote:
Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice? I was thinking the BS of 5 and 2 Kheres Assault cannons that's 12 shots with the AA mount special rule if it is stationary. But Kheres is a S6 weapon so it would have to get the Helldrake in the rear armor...

24" range and it has to remain stationary to gain skyfire. Flyers can usually avoid your dread.

The 12 str6 shots are awesome, just not nessisarrily as an AA option.

Yeah... making you avoid that 48" bubble (24" in every direction around the walker) is worth the points. Avoid the dread. He's just rendered you ineffective.

perhaps against a heldrake

but what happens when that squadron of vendettas comes in and shoots whatever they like with their 48" guns?

I guess in that case one would probs do a rifleman-mortis dread. 4 tl S7 shots, BS4 and skyfire w/ 48" range seems good enough to fight fire w/ fire; unless you love rending too much.

 Exergy wrote:
perhaps against a heldrake

but what happens when that squadron of vendettas comes in and shoots whatever they like with their 48" guns?

Wow - it's like a response in a thread about the Heldrake was responding to, maybe, a scenario where the opponent is fielding - wait for it - a Heldrake.
But to answer your question, "The rest of the army which likely includes a number of twin linked autocannons that don't perform well versus a Heldrake but do against Vendettas."

rigeld2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 StormK wrote:
Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice? I was thinking the BS of 5 and 2 Kheres Assault cannons that's 12 shots with the AA mount special rule if it is stationary. But Kheres is a S6 weapon so it would have to get the Helldrake in the rear armor...

24" range and it has to remain stationary to gain skyfire. Flyers can usually avoid your dread.

The 12 str6 shots are awesome, just not nessisarrily as an AA option.

Yeah... making you avoid that 48" bubble (24" in every direction around the walker) is worth the points. Avoid the dread. He's just rendered you ineffective.

Hey now there's an idea worth merit! Just like chess you want to control the center of board. Placing or moving scoring troops through this "zone" tempts the drake into range of your gundread...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
perhaps against a heldrake

but what happens when that squadron of vendettas comes in and shoots whatever they like with their 48" guns?

Wow - it's like a response in a thread about the Heldrake was responding to, maybe, a scenario where the opponent is fielding - wait for it - a Heldrake.
But to answer your question, "The rest of the army which likely includes a number of twin linked autocannons that don't perform well versus a Heldrake but do against Vendettas."

LOL....

rigeld2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
perhaps against a heldrake

but what happens when that squadron of vendettas comes in and shoots whatever they like with their 48" guns?

Wow - it's like a response in a thread about the Heldrake was responding to, maybe, a scenario where the opponent is fielding - wait for it - a Heldrake.
But to answer your question, "The rest of the army which likely includes a number of twin linked autocannons that don't perform well versus a Heldrake but do against Vendettas."

and I was responding to this

 StormK wrote:
Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice?

AA choice, not purely anti heldrake

Also if you are facing a heldrake, you are going to need to keep your units clustered around the Contemptor. Heldrake comes in, vector strikes the dread and then fires its flamer at something trying to hit rear armor of the dread. Fire anything else at the dread and it is likely dead before it gets to shoot.

Again, the Dreadnought has Interceptor. Either you're not in range to Vector Strike and flame it, in which case you're safe, or you are in range, in which case the Dreadnought gets to shoot first. You're not going to be able to Vector Strike it from outside the range of the Kheres Assault Cannons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Again, the Dreadnought has Interceptor. Either you're not in range to Vector Strike and flame it, in which case you're safe, or you are in range, in which case the Dreadnought gets to shoot first. You're not going to be able to Vector Strike it from outside the range of the Kheres Assault Cannons.

I was thinking

turn 1
shoot long ranged AT at the dread, you might get lucky and blow that 200 point baby up.
turn 2
come in out of 24 " range, vs or flame anything of opportunity, but it might be nothing.
turn 3
turn vector strike the dread and flame a squad and the dread at the same time, finish off the dread
turn 4
turn and vector strike and flame something else

Or you use the first drake to bite the bullet and weather the storm of bullets (hopefully surviving), then use your second one to bite it on the backside.

Out of interest, why does no one run a Hades Drake as a dedicated anti aircraft/tanks vehicle?

I can see a VS on a Vendetta, then 360 fire the Hades up its AV10 arse if it lives, pick a different target if it does

 IHateNids wrote:
Out of interest, why does no one run a Hades Drake as a dedicated anti aircraft/tanks vehicle?

I can see a VS on a Vendetta, then 360 fire the Hades up its AV10 arse if it lives, pick a different target if it does

is the baleflamer the only thing on a turret mount, have to read the FAQ

really the single hades just isnt very good. 4 shots, 2 hits. The vendtta gets 3 shots, 2.25 hits at higher strength and better AP and it costs a lot less.

but a Vendetta cannot be almost guaranteed a Rear Armour shot can it?

also, on max damage output, a drake can put up to:
4 S7AP3 Ignores Cover
4 S8AP4

that should make a mess of a Vendetta

reaper with no name wrote:
Are you saying that as an IG player?

Because (and I don't mean to be rude, so please don't misinterpret) if so, then I cannot take such a statement seriously.

I once pondered whether or not 6th edition was going to be the anti-marine edition. I'm now all but certain of it. Even DAs with their 5 man tactical squads with flakk missiles for 95 points can only expect to inflict a pathetic 0.15 hull points per turn each against heldrakes (and that's before IWND).

Wow, once a lifetime I read a statement such as this and have to ask myself if this a professional troll I'm reading or someone so out of touch with reality. Thank you for showing my cold, black heart that it can still feel someone, that I can still be shocked!

Every edition of 40k including 6th is so ridiculously pro SM that the sheer irony of your statement makes me question how on Earth you can come to this conclusion? Seriously, please tell me!

Remind me again what codex the Heldrake comes from? Oh, right...

Codex Space Marines with Spikey Bits, I believe you'll find.

A Storm Raven hard counters a Hell Drake, so I don't really understand the fuss. And 2 space marine armies have storm ravens. A vendetta will also usually hard counter a Hell Drake as well. Just about 70% of the armies, and all space marine armies out there can ally IG and take a Vendetta.

This is similar to fighting against drop pod armies. You bring lots of armor, run into a heavy drop pod army, and you will have problems as well.

Its not like there aren't options to counter a Hell drake out there, but if you refuse to take them, then its not the unit that's the problem here is it?

The meta changed towards favouring troop heavy armies in 6th edition. It was about how many bodies you could field. Armor (short of a heavy armor satuation army) was more rare. The Hell Drake was the first flyer that would out right murder an infantry heavy army. It was a very good counter to the meta.

If Hell Drakes are going to be the norm, then armies will soon turn up with more heavy anti air options like Vendettas, Storm Ravens, quad guns and Night scythes. In any case, how much of a norm can Hell Drakes be when they can only be taken by only one army codex - CSM ??

Actually, I feel that the xenos did get somewhat better in 6th. Regrouping down at 25%, etc. Different thread, though.

Stormravens nor Vendettas are hard-counters to Heldrakes. They certainly help bu the issue remains that one of those won't do much to effectively protect you from Drakes. GK and BA are the two armies that can field more than 1 raven, the issue is that both armies have such pricey marines that any damage the Drakes do will be worth more due to the smaller amount of bodies you will be fielding. Also keep in mind that the common SR loadout runs 60 pts more than a Drake. Vendettas are a better counter imo, but 1 doesn't do much vs 3 av12 flyers. The lascannons average less than 2 hp per turn and with the movement rules it is unlikely you shoot the same flyer two turns consecutively. If the opponent is savvy he can make it tough on you.

Why are you assuming 1 Vendetta vs 3 Heldrakes? That's just a mind boggling comparison.

rigeld2 wrote:
Why are you assuming 1 Vendetta vs 3 Heldrakes? That's just a mind boggling comparison.

Guard allies for a book with nothing better for AA than a quadgun presumably. In my experience, even 1 against two heldrakes can be tough. I suppose it doesnt help that me and my regular opponents are pretty ballsy with our flyers haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why are you assuming 1 Vendetta vs 3 Heldrakes? That's just a mind boggling comparison.

Guard allies for a book with nothing better for AA than a quadgun presumably. In my experience, even 1 against two heldrakes can be tough. I suppose it doesnt help that me and my regular opponents are pretty ballsy with our flyers haha.

Hyperios air defence batteries. They tear through Helldrakes and any other flyers with ease try them. Hyperios pattern Whirlwinds and Landraiders work well to.

reaper with no name wrote:

 Kugel wrote:
Guys, think that all this thread is all about: oh, my, Helldrake is so awesome. I think you must not. In one of the articles in White Dwarf was speeach about cost of Striking Scorpions in Tau army. They must be 30 pts per model for Tau, but 20 pts for Khorne Army CSM. My own helldrake DIES every game after first turn. I, myself, killed enemies Vendettas every turn with obliterators, or just push them off board, becose they need to Evade to live.
I LOL to hear from c:sm players that Helldrake is cheese. Guys, take 6*5 marines in your razorbacks with twin-linked lcannon (God, how i WANT RAZORBACKS!!!), take 6 gakking tiphoon speeders!!! Overal firepower from this units will bring ANY flier to ground without great loss.
I play twise per month with my close friends. And this is hard for my CSM gunline army becose they bring IG with 2 vendettas, or GK with tons of firepower and i can tell you, just simple poper use of your own army can help a lot.

You're kidding, right?

TL lascannons will only inflict .15 HP of damage against a heldrake. 6 of them will inflict .88 HP. You just spent 450 points to do less than 1 HP per turn against a single heldrake. It's effectively worthless.

That's why i call this thread dumb. Not people dumb to participate in it, but the theme of talks is dumb. Do you play karate-by-email? Single lcannon shot have a chance to bring down Fliyer. By building proper army list and by using it properly you nulify the awesomeness of Drake. One lcannon shot is not an answer, but six of them is. Plus any other shots you can do. I did shoot down necron fliers with my plasma chosen, but if i told you they ARE an answer to threat of fliyers, you will call me an idiot, and you will be right.

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Again, the Dreadnought has Interceptor. Either you're not in range to Vector Strike and flame it, in which case you're safe, or you are in range, in which case the Dreadnought gets to shoot first. You're not going to be able to Vector Strike it from outside the range of the Kheres Assault Cannons.

I was thinking

turn 1
shoot long ranged AT at the dread, you might get lucky and blow that 200 point baby up.
turn 2
come in out of 24 " range, vs or flame anything of opportunity, but it might be nothing.
turn 3
turn vector strike the dread and flame a squad and the dread at the same time, finish off the dread
turn 4
turn and vector strike and flame something else

If you fail at the first step the rest collapses. Step 2 means you have to limit your own movement and you're not going to reach step 3 without being in range of the Kheres. It just doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Again, the Dreadnought has Interceptor. Either you're not in range to Vector Strike and flame it, in which case you're safe, or you are in range, in which case the Dreadnought gets to shoot first. You're not going to be able to Vector Strike it from outside the range of the Kheres Assault Cannons.

I was thinking

turn 1
shoot long ranged AT at the dread, you might get lucky and blow that 200 point baby up.
turn 2
come in out of 24 " range, vs or flame anything of opportunity, but it might be nothing.
turn 3
turn vector strike the dread and flame a squad and the dread at the same time, finish off the dread
turn 4
turn and vector strike and flame something else

If you fail at the first step the rest collapses. Step 2 means you have to limit your own movement and you're not going to reach step 3 without being in range of the Kheres. It just doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

Helldrake has a 36" move so why would it not be able to go from outside range of vector strike? Easy no, doable yes.

LValx wrote:
Stormravens nor Vendettas are hard-counters to Heldrakes. They certainly help bu the issue remains that one of those won't do much to effectively protect you from Drakes.

You know, both of those can carry troops. Have you thought about putting your foot troops in them when your facing drakes? That will help keep them alive until you shoot down the drakes.

barnowl wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Again, the Dreadnought has Interceptor. Either you're not in range to Vector Strike and flame it, in which case you're safe, or you are in range, in which case the Dreadnought gets to shoot first. You're not going to be able to Vector Strike it from outside the range of the Kheres Assault Cannons.

I was thinking

turn 1
shoot long ranged AT at the dread, you might get lucky and blow that 200 point baby up.
turn 2
come in out of 24 " range, vs or flame anything of opportunity, but it might be nothing.
turn 3
turn vector strike the dread and flame a squad and the dread at the same time, finish off the dread
turn 4
turn and vector strike and flame something else

If you fail at the first step the rest collapses. Step 2 means you have to limit your own movement and you're not going to reach step 3 without being in range of the Kheres. It just doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

Helldrake has a 36" move so why would it not be able to go from outside range of vector strike? Easy no, doable yes.

Hmm, didn't know you could fire when you moved 36", my bad. That said, a 24" radius circle covers more than half of a 72"x48" table. You're going to have to come in at one of the extreme edges and then angle yourself 90 degrees next turn before flying over the Dreadnought, and you'd better hope the enemy hasn't placed any units in the way so you can't land and Vector Strike at the same time. The point is, it's limiting your movement massively, and that's with one Dreadnought. What if there's 2 of them? All of a sudden there's nowhere for your fliers to go.

Not to mention that Contemptor Dreadnought have side-AV 12. That's not exactly easy to crack with S7 Vector Strikes.

In my deathwing army ( pre 6th update) I used to take at least 2 mortis contemptors ( mortis dreads are something totally different) I put twin las and cyclones on them, never had an issue with flyers, helldrakes are a pain in the arse but are easily dealt with if you can be bothered to try.

Hey, crazy thread!
It somewhat relates to something I was working on a bit ago, the mathhammer of a heldrake versus a vendetta.
Draw your own conclusions from it, the charts are at the bottom:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dLT-YW_sV0o0LhNhRSTDDp46LYGdeasucAboSmGlVkI/edit

let me know if the link is broken.

rigeld2 wrote:
Why are you assuming 1 Vendetta vs 3 Heldrakes? That's just a mind boggling comparison.

Because the armies who really fear Drakes can only grab one. I suppose you can squadron them, but I think that is a bad decision.

Putting troops in Vendettas is fine, Stormraven can be quite a bit riskier as a little bad luck could see the squad inside dead pretty easily. Guard don't have too much of an issue with Heldrakes, cheap troops, good and cheap air defense helps quite a bit. The real issue is that SW, BA, GK, SM, BT and DA all have a helluva a time facing lists with 2-3 Drakes, the Drake is just a little too good. Super fast, Str. 6 AP3 torrent flamers that can rotate 360 should not exist.