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Perhaps it was something like.

Original survey: "Meh, noones going for the season 3 complete your team."

Second Survey: "Hmm, people still really aren't going for the season 3 complete your team. It's not actually economic to make them in restic, we could do some metal stuff nearer the time and we'll be fine."

Third Survey: "Where the frik did all these season 3 Complete your teams come from. Oh man. We're utterly screwed. "

 Daedleh wrote:


Hey agnosto,

I wouldn't count you as a troll in the least! These are well reasoned and understandable gripes with Mantic. I'm sorry you feel let down, and I don't think anyone wanted to claim to know what your spending habits are, but it can get frustrating dealing with certain posters. It's certainly hard sometimes sifting through genuine gripes and those who are just moaning for moanings sake. I've passed similar comments on as feedback on the KoW kickstarter so here's hoping the rest of the DZ one goes a lot smoother. It certainly seems to be so far with the only really divisive models so far seem to be the Marauders, which were significantly improved following feedback. We've seen the majority of what's coming in wave 1 already, though we could perhaps do with some specific updates on the status of hard plastic enforcers and the other plastic kits.

Thank you for the well reasoned response as well. As I said, I sincerely hope that they have learned their lesson but from recent posts about Dreadball, it sounds like they're up to some of the same sort of, frankly, dishonest practices. I've recently become disenchanted with GW after about 20 years of supporting them; I'd very much like to see an up and coming company succeed but I can't be arsed to tolerate shady dealings. They could learn something from people like Mark with Dreamforge; if you communicate with your backers, promise an awesome product and actually deliver that product as described, people aren't upset if you run behind schedule.

Well, I've derailed this thread enough. Apologies all.

Back on topic!? Supposedly going to be a deadzone update on the kickstarter page this weekend, the last newsletter mentioned deadzone, and apparently deadzone week is coming up on the mantic blog.

About all I've got, too much fun watching bones run wild atm, and we don't actively discuss the current MA stuff in this thread correct?

 edlowe wrote:
If I remember correctly mantic did state that all the options would be available in the second survey except the third party add ons. It would be odd for them to turn down your money!

Any idea when that second survey is projected to come out?

I do not think we have had definite clarification but I have seen March being bandied about a lot.

On Facebook, 'Ronnie Renton' wrote:
Ronnie Renton Hi everyone, I am really sorry there is confusion here. I thought this message had gone out ages ago. My bad. When we looked at the volumes and the timings for Season 3 and all the extras that were coming though it was clear that the Season 3 alternates would not be possible to make in plastic, so we made them in metal. That material is much more expensive per model, but we were happy to cover that cost to get the models out to everyone. I am really sorry this was not clearly explained in an update. I have seen similar comments on the KS page so will cover it there to and I will put an update out. If anyone really has a problem with metal then please let us know and we can take it back for a refund.

WUT!? UNPOSSIBLE! Double post, y you no happen when I might actually have more to say!?

Ronnie replied to my post on Facebook above so at least it's finally clear.

 Compel wrote:
Perhaps it was something like.

Original survey: "Meh, noones going for the season 3 complete your team."

Second Survey: "Hmm, people still really aren't going for the season 3 complete your team. It's not actually economic to make them in restic, we could do some metal stuff nearer the time and we'll be fine."

Third Survey: "Where the frik did all these season 3 Complete your teams come from. Oh man. We're utterly screwed. "

I'd just like to point out the emphasised statement shouldn't really apply during a Kickstarter. It's marketed on the premise that "if we reach £xxxx then we'll make model(s) Y", so if they ask for £20,000 (or whatever) to unlock a stretch goal, regardless of what is actually ordered in surveys, they still received the £20,000 they asked for in order to create the stretch goal they put up.

 Baragash wrote:
Well TBH I think the did a decent job with Dreadball (says the guy who is going to be asking for 2 replacment starter teams due to casting and 4 replacement booster teams due to metal...lol) so I think the risk of flub up is quite low. The risk for me is they'll zig instead of zagging on something when the extra yard they save by zigging just isn't worth it compared to the inconvenience/disappointment it causes.

Man, I really need to QA check my Wave 2 stuff..

Guys, metal or restic isn't the issue, it's the mix . The Zee and likely Nameless will be different sizes on the different materials. Having a team made up of models in half of each material will absolutely suck.

Doug, again you talk of freebies. I'm in for ONE team, no freebies- the Nameless. I want them to be right, and I want issues like a material change communicated Ahead of time... like every other KS I've been a part of! Please do not gloss over legitimate issues like this, it makes your posts as noisy as those who detract Mantic no matter what.

Most of us are in the middle, and the handling of the issue I laid out above sucks so far by Mantic :-/

That said, I'm okay with all metal... just not a mix for similar sculpts. I understand the big model will be restic no matter what, as is my John Doe. But if I get strikers that are in restic and metal, etc... that to me is unacceptable, and even moreso to send with no prior communication about the discrepancy.

Didn't they say they'd do refunds or replacements for people unhappy with a mix?

If they did, that'd be welcome and appropriate. I didn't see that, though...

 Compel wrote:

On Facebook, 'Ronnie Renton' wrote:
Ronnie Renton Hi everyone, I am really sorry there is confusion here. I thought this message had gone out ages ago. My bad. When we looked at the volumes and the timings for Season 3 and all the extras that were coming though it was clear that the Season 3 alternates would not be possible to make in plastic, so we made them in metal. That material is much more expensive per model, but we were happy to cover that cost to get the models out to everyone. I am really sorry this was not clearly explained in an update. I have seen similar comments on the KS page so will cover it there to and I will put an update out. If anyone really has a problem with metal then please let us know and we can take it back for a refund.

Maybe it's only a refund. Couldn't hurt to email and ask.

I wonder if they'll want backers to cover the shipping back to the UK?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They did when nkeltch wanted a refund for his teams.

Not looking for a refund... if some of my team is metal, I want it all metal (at least the main team, MVP / big model not withstanding). Maybe I'll get lucky like Orlando and get all metal Nameless. The fact that all I can do is "hope" at this point is the problem :(

 Yonan wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Daedle wrote:
And if they'd missed the deadline you'd be complaining that they missed the deadline AND THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER MANTIC ALWAYS SCREW EVERYTHING UP.

Bollocks. Big difference between getting something late and not getting what you paid for. Check the Dreamforge Games thread for a KS that's way over schedule. We're patiently waiting because we hope the minis will be awesome.

Wouldn't that be more accurate?

Wave 1 was awesome, an exact translation of the renders to plastic. Wave 2 was awesome, an exact translation of the renders to plastic. It's not a stretch to expect the final wave to be awesome. So no, it's not more accurate.

Gotta back Yonan on this. Mark's stuff is horribly late at this stage, but there are no complaints on the quality or the customer service. If anything, both are better than I'd expect for a KS. (Which goes a long way to mitigating any anger over the lateness).

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
some people would complain over missed deadlines due to making sure the quality was excellent (fair enough, they value speed and this seems to be the camp Mantic falls into)
some people would complain over shoddy quality because they did hit the deadline (fair enough, they value quality, and this is where I personally sit)
They're not going to be able to please both groups, sadly

"Hi guys! We've run into some production snags, so we're giving you the option of getting all of the figures now in a mix of plastic resin and metals, or waiting X months until we can have all of the models produced in plastic resin. Please contact us/reply to the attached survey by XYZ and we'll get the figures out to you. Once again we apologise for the snag, but blah blah"

Something like that surely would go a long way to pleasing both camps? We know Mantic's mentality is pretty much "done, done, onto the next one..." though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm one for whom Dreadzone will be the tipping point for Mantic. I didn't back KoW because I didn't have the cash back then and looking back I'm glad I didn't. However I did go in decently on Dreadzone. Mostly for terrain and some figures for a buddy with the option to go crazy on the FF's and other models once I saw some sculpts. Seeing the sculpts has sold me on at least a Rebel starter and possibly some other figures. The quality of the first wave will determine if I throw cash at them or not.

I basically pulled my DeadZone pledge and dropped down to $1 since I was short on money and rather dubious about their quality after KoW (and not blown away by DreadBall, either, frankly.) Once Wave 1 ships and people have their stuff in hand I'll be able to make a judgement on their quality for my own purposes. The last thing I really need now is a million more models, anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Yeah people whine about restic, people whine about metal, people whine about delays all it shows is that you cannot please all the people all the time and that your damned if you do and your damned if you don't.

Better communication and asking backers what they wanted would probably have resulted in a fair bit more work, but a lot more goodwill. It also would have pleased - or at least satisfied - most of the above people this time.

I agree, they should have asked you guys who would be affected. I got all resin, and I'm happy, but I can totally understand a mix of material (and height!) leading to dissatisfaction. A heads up and options of how to proceed would have been ideal. Hopefully that refund offer Ronnie made on FB allows for replacements too and you guys can get your stuff fixed up in the proper material and you can have happy teams.

 RiTides wrote:
Not looking for a refund... if some of my team is metal, I want it all metal (at least the main team, MVP / big model not withstanding). Maybe I'll get lucky like Orlando and get all metal Nameless. The fact that all I can do is "hope" at this point is the problem :(

having had a more detailed look it looks like they failed to send the nameless team (restic), and instead send multiples of the 'extra poses' pack (metal), so I have fewer poses than I should, but having a full teams worth in metal means I'm not complaining

 Azazelx wrote:
I wonder if they'll want backers to cover the shipping back to the UK?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They did when nkeltch wanted a refund for his teams.

Yeah, a refund for a Kickstarter after Mantic offered to replace his mold-lined models and he refused to get his models replaced for free. They went way above and beyond offering an actual cash refund on an investment; did anyone get a refund for their Enron shares?

Hell, I've had mispacks and bad sculpts, and i just get them replaced, shipped to me for free. Tim @ Mantic even shipped my Mantic Points order bundled with my replacement parts from KoW so that I wouldn't have to pay shipping costs for my Points order.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I wonder if they'll want backers to cover the shipping back to the UK?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They did when nkeltch wanted a refund for his teams.

Yeah, a refund for a Kickstarter after Mantic offered to replace his mold-lined models and he refused to get his models replaced for free. They went way above and beyond offering an actual cash refund on an investment; did anyone get a refund for their Enron shares?

Hell, I've had mispacks and bad sculpts, and i just get them replaced, shipped to me for free. Tim @ Mantic even shipped my Mantic Points order bundled with my replacement parts from KoW so that I wouldn't have to pay shipping costs for my Points order.

Yeah, I've pretty much taken to ignoring everything Nkeltch posts in a Mantic thread. Half stories and indignation are all you'll find. There are plenty of other posters who have offered constructive criticism, but his has been largely confrontational.

Half metal/ half restic teams is a valid concern.

The thing is.. you can't just take the restic green and cast it in metal.

You need to completely resculpt it before casting it in metal.

Why? Well, scale is important.

Restic miniatures are deliberately sculpted at around 110% of the intended final size of the mini to compensate for the shrinkage that occurs when restic cools.

So, if you just run the restic greens in a metal mould you'll end up with half your team noticeably larger than the other half.

And the economics debate doesn't really apply to kickstarter-funded product. If there's a $20k stretch goal to tool some minis in plastic, you tool them in plastic, regardless of what the takeup on them on the survey is.

And if they're late, they're late - that's life and KS backers especially are quite used to things going a month or three overdue at this point with wargaming projects, they're generally OK with it as long as it is accompanied by a reassuring "we either delay this or ship you crap, and we're not shipping you crap". update message.

Also, another valid reason for not wanting metal is more difficult assembly.

The nameless tentacles would have been perfect for hot water reposing in restic too. Oh, and dreadball as a game can be a bit rough on the minis with lots of standing up and laying down minis, not so great for keeping metal minis paint unchipped.

Bit of a swing and a miss from whoever was manning the bean counter at Mantic, really.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I wonder if they'll want backers to cover the shipping back to the UK?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They did when nkeltch wanted a refund for his teams.

Yeah, a refund for a Kickstarter after Mantic offered to replace his mold-lined models and he refused to get his models replaced for free. They went way above and beyond offering an actual cash refund on an investment; did anyone get a refund for their Enron shares?

Hell, I've had mispacks and bad sculpts, and i just get them replaced, shipped to me for free. Tim @ Mantic even shipped my Mantic Points order bundled with my replacement parts from KoW so that I wouldn't have to pay shipping costs for my Points order.

that is not what actually happened.

I was asked to ship back the product for a refund or exchange. And an exchange means I would be out 40 dollars shipping and get another pack of bad models as thy had not solved the casting issues.

So I asked to return season 2 and op out of season 3 because it would have cost me too much shipping to get season to re-re-fixed and now season 3 would have probably needed fixing.

I was never offered replacements with free or reimbursed shipping. So I was trying to limit the number of international shipping packages I would have needed to send.

And for a company who is using kick starter as a pre order, I think it is kind of telling that water carriers act like we should expect losses on our investments and that losing money or not fulfilling as promised should be acceptable.

You keep explicitly trolling and you don't have all the facts and are constantly trying to cover up people's real experiences.

It is the little things that currently niggle me about Mantic. A week last friday they promised an update in a week showing great new things " Keep an eye out for next week's update... oh, we've got some exciting things to show you."

9 days later and still nothing. If you cannot meet the promise do not make it. They have people working as Mars Attacks has had an update/comments today, even a mini update may do something to placate the frustrated but as it is we are not hearing anything. I do not know if this is a good thing given we have supposedly a month to go until wave 1 ships.

You are the only person on here who claims to have had the refund/replacement issue you describe. You have also been quite adversarial on the matter, which is why a number of us see your responses as we do and have a hard time seeing your experience as the norm. Perhaps you got a bad CS member and should have asked to talk to someone higher up. Regardless, your CS experience has been the polar opposite of everyone else posting on this site. Does Mantic do things wrong? Yes. Does every other gaming company make mistakes? Yes. But their customer service is equal to GW's. I've called/emailed both companies enough times to see the equality. I've also had an email response from Mantic within hours every time I send one.

 agnosto wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:


Hey agnosto,

I wouldn't count you as a troll in the least! These are well reasoned and understandable gripes with Mantic. I'm sorry you feel let down, and I don't think anyone wanted to claim to know what your spending habits are, but it can get frustrating dealing with certain posters. It's certainly hard sometimes sifting through genuine gripes and those who are just moaning for moanings sake. I've passed similar comments on as feedback on the KoW kickstarter so here's hoping the rest of the DZ one goes a lot smoother. It certainly seems to be so far with the only really divisive models so far seem to be the Marauders, which were significantly improved following feedback. We've seen the majority of what's coming in wave 1 already, though we could perhaps do with some specific updates on the status of hard plastic enforcers and the other plastic kits.

Thank you for the well reasoned response as well. As I said, I sincerely hope that they have learned their lesson but from recent posts about Dreadball, it sounds like they're up to some of the same sort of, frankly, dishonest practices. I've recently become disenchanted with GW after about 20 years of supporting them; I'd very much like to see an up and coming company succeed but I can't be arsed to tolerate shady dealings. They could learn something from people like Mark with Dreamforge; if you communicate with your backers, promise an awesome product and actually deliver that product as described, people aren't upset if you run behind schedule.

Well, I've derailed this thread enough. Apologies all.

Just wanted to point out that your rank is...me. I think that means you owe me half an oxen and five bushels of corn.

OT. nkelsch has had his experience which formed his opinion of Mantic, and timetowaste85, judgedoug etc. have had theirs. Implying some sort of agenda or untold story is wholly unecessary.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
You are the only person on here who claims to have had the refund/replacement issue you describe. You have also been quite adversarial on the matter, which is why a number of us see your responses as we do and have a hard time seeing your experience as the norm. Perhaps you got a bad CS member and should have asked to talk to someone higher up. Regardless, your CS experience has been the polar opposite of everyone else posting on this site. Does Mantic do things wrong? Yes. Does every other gaming company make mistakes? Yes. But their customer service is equal to GW's. I've called/emailed both companies enough times to see the equality. I've also had an email response from Mantic within hours every time I send one.

But you continue to carry water for things Mantic totally conceded were legitimate issues which were being experienced by multiple people. Mantic admitted there were issues with every gripe I had.

1. MULTIPLE people had significant issues with excessive mold lines in shipment 1.

*Mantic said: We had way more failures than normal, it was a legitimate issue, we need to adjust how machines were running.

2. MULTPLE people had significant issues with twist-n-tear de-spruing in shipment 1.
*Mantic Said: The twist and tear is not acceptable and we should fix it.

3. Some people felt the molds were designed poorly due to mold lines and tear points being through detail of the model which could not be cleaned.
*Mantic said: The newer molds will be done 'better'.

4. MULTIPLE people had issues using the 'contact us' form on their website and were getting 'no response' from Mantic. People were told to pledge the new Kickstarter to contact them or email secret emails direct to specific employees.
*Mantic Said: Our website does not work right and is unreliable, people are having issues contacting us and us not responding.

So great... they admitted their issues, these were legitimate issues and regardless how specific people tried to downplay them, they were widespread and legitimate even to MANTIC.

So shipment 2 arrived. Same mold line issues, same twist and tear, same poorly located mold lines, same communication failures. Lots of people had issues.

My options were to exchange the product by sending it back (which is paying shipping) and they ship me new product, or send it back (which is paying shipping) and get a refund. Are you saying that mantic is giving out products for damaged products without expecting the damaged product in return? That is not being done for everyone... and if it was, then why do you think that everyone should simply get free double product but I should have to ship stuff back to get exchange or refund? Are you implying that customers who do not carry water for mantic on the forums get a ;punishment tax' and they only provide exchanges or refunds if you are one of their buddies?

That is a worse scenario then simply accepting that exchanges and refunds usually require products to be returned which is common. The issue was: So I ship the product back... Do I feel I will get quality replacements for season 2 and Season 3 after the lack of improvement from season 1 to 2? Do I want to risk spending more money for more exchanges because the products may not be reliable?

The answer was No, So I returned my season 2, cancelled Season 3, and that was it. Mantic did the minimal required for business companies, And I don't have an issue with how they handled it (except to hear supposedly they are just sending out double free product as the norm which means international shipping was potentially punitive and unnecessary). They admitted having issues with unacceptable models getting sent out, and having failures in communication and I hope it is better, but people seem to still have issues. And Mantic still admits the issues are real and legitimate, and the same water carriers are falling over themselves to shout down and attack people who question the legitimate issues or are impacted by them.

So people had a legitimate question: Are people who have metal models they don't want just getting free refunds and allowed to keep the product? Or do they need to mail it back to get the refund?

Why is asking that result in attacks on people who have had issues opposed to simply answering the question? It is a valid concern to potentially have to spend more on shipping than the cost of the models to return them.

I am not disagreeing with any of your actual points there. Show me one time where I said, even in paraphrase, "that's not possible" on any of those supply issues. I have issue with your attitude, and say that you're one of the few, if only, people to have been told "pay for shipping to return". I haven't seen that ANYWHERE else. And with that issue, I think you got an inexperienced employee that made a mistake: a manager should have fixed your issue. And we've posted emails here to contact the people who are directly responsible for fixings and replacements: Stewart and Tim. Perhaps your emails that you said weren't being answered somehow were flagged as spam. I don't know who you finally spoke to, but based on the information you gave; a mistake was made. Maybe you just had exceedingly poor luck with CS. I have real life friends who had the same issue with GW, which I know is hard to believe, but it happened. I'm typing on my phone and my thoughts are a tiny bit jumbled, I'll edit when I get home from Vermont sometime tonight to make it all clear, as I even think it's jumbled and I know what I want on the screen.

Anyone know where we can find a list of what's shipping in wave 1 and wave 2, and when those waves ship?

And given all that's gone on with Mantic lately, I'm concerned about how the 'special characters' are going to come out. Among other things....

I think we're still waiting on an update for a final tally. There was a post with a short list of what they thought at the time would be ready, but this monday should start Deadzone week on their blog and hopefully give us some insight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quoting from update #96

Shipping Information - 1st and 2nd Shipment

A lot of you have been asking about what ships when, so you can budget effectively for the surveys. Every item in the Kickstarter will be made available in the survey that will be out on Monday, regardless of when it ships. The second survey will be sent out shortly before we're due to ship the second batch (roughly Q2 next year, or earlier if we can), allowing you to top up your rewards should you wish. This survey will ONLY contain second shipment items - it will not offer anything already shipped.

These are the items we currently have planned for the second shipment:

Forge Father Faction Starters and Boosters
Asterian Faction Starters and Boosters
Plague Zombies
Light Support Vehicles (Pathfinder on Bike, Iron Ancestor, Stuntbot, Striders)
Faction Special Characters
Enforcers in Peacekeeper Armour (if funded!)
Deadzone Compendium
Deadzone Collector's Edition Hardback Book
AI Card Deck

Due to some changes to our tooling schedule made possible by your support, EVERYTHING else will come in the first shipment, so you'll have the vast majority of your order with you by Christmas! As we get closer to the release dates, there may be some items that change. For example, the Plague Zombies are very close to being finished, and we might be able to squeeze them into Shipment 1. If this is the case, we'll add them to the second survey anyway so that you can pick up some more if you need them. The same applies to anything else that we can speed up. We'll keep you posted in the updates as we know more.

They're supposed to get back to us with a better idea as things get closer (which is more or less now ).

Good summary of the metal issue SS. Looking forward to more DZ news! Can see why the delay given they're busy with MA though.