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AegisGrimm wrote: And half the people vehemently hated the power-maces, especially.
That was me. Very silly as a Sci Fi weapon in my opinion. Glad they ditched them. Making a decent stun baton out of plastic rod should be pretty easy, and when you are wearing power armor your fist can do for lethally intended close combat.
I really hope these guys turn out as well as the renders look. I like them.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
scarletsquig wrote: I'm personally glad that they're looking into Warpath-focused extra bits (the defender shield and shotgun), rather than having 40k-analogue bits on there just for the sake of it.
I am all for unique stuff from Mantic, in fact ages ago that used to be the argument/ whine oft-repeated on Dakka... "Mantic can't do anything but GW knock-offs".. quite amusing to see the opposite being stated now, that they should carbon copy 40k terminator equipment options rather than sticking with their own stuff.
Umm.. yeah, No.
You're falling into the "Dakka whinges about this, that and the other" thing - like so many others do - as though everyone here is a hive-mind, except for you (or whoever happens to be making that whinge at the time). We're a collection of individuals, with different opinions, and you're better than that kind of pissweak argument. I for one never complained about having 40k-analogue bits in the package, except perhaps that the mauls weren't very good digital sculpts. And let's be blunt - if they want to avoid the "GW-Knock-offs" tag, perhaps Space Orks wasn't the best choice to start with, along with Squats and Space Skaven and Not-Guardsmen who are meant to proxy for IG right down to the 60mm 2-crew heavy weapons and flamer, meltas etc that aren't even used in WarPath.
I'm very much "Let's not pretend that WarPath is anything besides not-40k and just do it well." Decent looking "wolverine claws", "space maces" and "riot shields" are completely acceptable, as is an "auxullary rocket pod" - and let's face it - would help these figures sell more units to more people.
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carlos13th wrote: Yeah I things like maces and swords just seem out of place in Sci Fi. For me at least.
Swords are unlikely, unless they happen to be lightsabers - but truncheons, etc make sense and add multiplication of reach/leverage/force and acceleration to a hit. Much like you can hit something much harder with a cricket bat or a baseball bat than with your fist. Add enhanced strength powered armour to that with shock absorbers to contain the jarring in your own frame, along with a sturdy enough truncheon, and you've got some fething harsh melee, if it comes to that.
- edit - skip to 51s, since the link doesn't want to play ball.
And unlike Tony and Rhodey who seem able to ignore the laws of physics due to being Level 25 Heros, someone with their heads actually inside those helmets would probably have them reduced to gelatin.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/15 02:15:54
I'm glad the mauls are gone, as I didn't care for the design. The claws I'm not against in principle, but while the design wasn't bad, I found it uninspired, so I don't mind them ditching those either. As for the shields, if Peacekeeper armor is as good as it's cracked up to be, why would they need them?
None of that's saying I wouldn't buy a close combat sprue, but I'd want some better looking / more sensible kit on it.
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Vermonter wrote: I'm glad the mauls are gone, as I didn't care for the design. The claws I'm not against in principle, but while the design wasn't bad, I found it uninspired, so I don't mind them ditching those either. As for the shields, if Peacekeeper armor is as good as it's cracked up to be, why would they need them?
Well, an M1 Abrams is supposed to be rather good at taking hits, but adding reactive armour to them does seem to help their survivability. Ditto Tiger Tanks and Zimmereit back during WWII...
Vermonter wrote: I'm glad the mauls are gone, as I didn't care for the design. The claws I'm not against in principle, but while the design wasn't bad, I found it uninspired, so I don't mind them ditching those either. As for the shields, if Peacekeeper armor is as good as it's cracked up to be, why would they need them?
Well, an M1 Abrams is supposed to be rather good at taking hits, but adding reactive armour to them does seem to help their survivability. Ditto Tiger Tanks and Zimmereit back during WWII...
Actually, all Zimmerit did was make it harder for magnetic mines to be stuck to the side of the tank by infantry with no real proof that it increased survivability in the field, better analogy would be Schürzen
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 02:43:30
Actually, hitting something with the hand of a suit of power armor would probably be the dumbest thing you could do in hand to hand. The hand of the suit would be one of the most delicate bits due to the number of small, moving parts. You try punchung something with even reasonably sturdy armor, you're going to shatter your suit's hands.
Personally, I'd still rather see pile drivers used for close combat (like they did in VOTOMS).
Vermonter wrote: I'm glad the mauls are gone, as I didn't care for the design. The claws I'm not against in principle, but while the design wasn't bad, I found it uninspired, so I don't mind them ditching those either. As for the shields, if Peacekeeper armor is as good as it's cracked up to be, why would they need them?
Well, an M1 Abrams is supposed to be rather good at taking hits, but adding reactive armour to them does seem to help their survivability. Ditto Tiger Tanks and Zimmereit back during WWII...
Actually, all Zimmerit did was make it harder for magnetic mines to be stuck to the side of the tank by infantry with no real proof that it increased survivability in the field, better analogy would be Schürzen
Well, the lack of proof supporting Zimmerit was compounded by the fact that only the Germans made extensive use of magnetic mines during the war.
As far as Swords and Mauls being silly in sci-fi; they're only silly if you think all alien races would fight with guns at range. To say that there could never be a race of aliens who would be a hive-mind with only a few dissenting voices (you know exactly like Dakka! We'll call them Dakkaites I kid Az...) for whom swarm tactics and hand-to-hand combat is the norm is fairly limiting. Throw in the need to board spaceships which are a claustrophobic's nightmare to begin with or just as weapon of intimidation (one of the goals of the Enforcers in general) and it's really not that far-fetched.
I think it's silly to equip the cannon-fodder with hand-to-hand weapons, as humans are terrible at hand-to-hand with animals from our own planet, let alone intelligent ones. However, Peacekeepers are the creme de la creme of the Corporations forces and no expense would be spared in training nor equipment. Equipping them to only deal with ranged opponents when DeadZone shows there are "in your face" opponents out there would actually be sillier. However, swords and mauls may not be the most effective weapons. Axes would actually rank much higher given the general utility (ask any fireman about how useful an axe can be outside of combat).
However, if they were to add CC weapons for PeaceKeepers, I'd want the bitz to model a gun still on them. While having CC weapons on an elite group like the PeaceKeepers might not be silly, not having any sort of guns at their disposal is absolutely dumb.
Yeah, "not-assault terminators" don't really track that well for how I see warpath. Even the warpath rippers (now probably somewhat outdated, honestly) had heavy pistols and not just ripper talons.
I know the wrist blade usually gets knocked because it's not nearly as cool as a sword, and or would break, and all of that stuff... But having a melee weapon that didn't require both hands or actually drawing it out seems to fit power armored shooting enthusiasts. Pew pew, uh oh something got into range, *snickt* stab/slash, back to pew pew.
scarletsquig wrote: I am all for unique stuff from Mantic, in fact ages ago that used to be the argument/ whine oft-repeated on Dakka... "Mantic can't do anything but GW knock-offs".. quite amusing to see the opposite being stated now, that they should carbon copy 40k terminator equipment options rather than sticking with their own stuff.
I've said it many times, but making mechanical analogues is good. It makes it easier for your customers to find games, and it makes it easier for other people to start playing your game. What is not good is making aesthetic analogues.
A cervitaur and a wood elf horseman both serve the same role in the army and could use the same rules, but one offers something new as a plastic kit while the other is something we've had before. Or my idea of "the Order of the Shield" as a gendarmerie fielding sonic and microwave weapons and riding in riot APCs to give Sisters players most of what they want without the plastic kits becoming redundant if the Sisters ever get theirs.
As for good melee weapons, repeat after me, kids: pry bar. A guy in powered armour should wield a resilient, useful melee weapon. A demolitions tool increases their urban mobility and still works just as well to cave in someone's head.
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carlos13th wrote: Yeah I things like maces and swords just seem out of place in Sci Fi. For me at least.
Swords are unlikely, unless they happen to be lightsabers - but truncheons, etc make sense and add multiplication of reach/leverage/force and acceleration to a hit. Much like you can hit something much harder with a cricket bat or a baseball bat than with your fist. Add enhanced strength powered armour to that with shock absorbers to contain the jarring in your own frame, along with a sturdy enough truncheon, and you've got some fething harsh melee, if it comes to that.
- edit - skip to 51s, since the link doesn't want to play ball.
And unlike Tony and Rhodey who seem able to ignore the laws of physics due to being Level 25 Heros, someone with their heads actually inside those helmets would probably have them reduced to gelatin.
Some kind of batton, stun batton I would be all for. But just not a mace which is just a medevil weapon with wires.
I am ok with the wrist knives too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 04:00:44
Well the Mauler Ripper Suit has an underslung power ram, Assault Peacekeepers could have a more sophisticated version of that? Grab the target in their suited hands, hold on tight, and let the power ram take the brunt of punching big holes in it, whether that be a wall or a 3rd Gen head
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 05:04:58
I especially like the kitchen sink bludgeon into the fireplace for that scene.
Man, they would be pretty terrifying with big power driver things. Or what about a uhh, space-hydraulic spike? Grab on with the enhanced power glove and let the spike hit a key area (brain?).
As to punching people with your exo-suit being a bad thing, isn't that the point of the up-armored likely less articulated energy gauntlet? It's also implied in the name that it may have some kind of energy involved, like tazerfist or something a bit more scifi and dangerous while we're at it.
GrimDork wrote: As to punching people with your exo-suit being a bad thing, isn't that the point of the up-armored likely less articulated energy gauntlet? It's also implied in the name that it may have some kind of energy involved, like tazerfist or something a bit more scifi and dangerous while we're at it.
You don't need to sacrifice any articulation - just have the back of the gauntlet extend forwards past the knuckles. You'd still be taking the impact on the wrist joints, but that's a lot better than the knuckles.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
Vermonter wrote: I'm glad the mauls are gone, as I didn't care for the design. The claws I'm not against in principle, but while the design wasn't bad, I found it uninspired, so I don't mind them ditching those either. As for the shields, if Peacekeeper armor is as good as it's cracked up to be, why would they need them?
Well, an M1 Abrams is supposed to be rather good at taking hits, but adding reactive armour to them does seem to help their survivability. Ditto Tiger Tanks and Zimmereit back during WWII...
Actually, all Zimmerit did was make it harder for magnetic mines to be stuck to the side of the tank by infantry with no real proof that it increased survivability in the field, better analogy would be Schürzen
By the same token, no "proof" that it didn't increase survivability, either. And the point for this discussion remains, regardless of zimmereit, reactive, schurzen or riot shields.
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NTRabbit wrote: Well the Mauler Ripper Suit has an underslung power ram, Assault Peacekeepers could have a more sophisticated version of that? Grab the target in their suited hands, hold on tight, and let the power ram take the brunt of punching big holes in it, whether that be a wall or a 3rd Gen head
Great idea, if you can grab them and they lack their own spikes/genestealer claws, etc. I'd much rather have a metre of harsh metal stick to use.
As for "melee only" issues, I guess the issues is the heroic scaling of these models. Much like real world riot police manage to have a truncheon, shield AND carry a firearm. Something like a magna-clamp to "holster" your sidearm or truncheon as necessary on your "belt"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 06:15:50
As for "melee only" issues, I guess the issues is the heroic scaling of these models. Much like real world riot police manage to have a truncheon, shield AND carry a firearm. Something like a magna-clamp to "holster" your sidearm or truncheon as necessary on your "belt"?
Agree. Perhaps a way to have a hand hold a pistol or the beat-stick, while the other is on the belt. I like the idea of autoshotgun guys with big shields and the baton at their side. Or baton in hand, pistol at side, shield. Or pistol on hand, baton at side, shield. Etc.
edit - without the notorious lego-hands.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 06:36:15
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Bolognesus wrote: Otoh, I'm all for making the kit really good for one thing, rather than 'okay' for two.
So far, it looks 'okay' for one thing, but priced for a premium. They are priced like restics with about the same amount of options that come in a restic kit. It's almost like Mantic are trying to remove all the advantages HIPS bring to the minis.
Great idea, if you can grab them and they lack their own spikes/genestealer claws, etc. I'd much rather have a metre of harsh metal stick to use.
As for "melee only" issues, I guess the issues is the heroic scaling of these models. Much like real world riot police manage to have a truncheon, shield AND carry a firearm. Something like a magna-clamp to "holster" your sidearm or truncheon as necessary on your "belt"?
They've got two arms! Power ram on one arm with the hand free, hip holstered pistol, and stun baton in the other hand? Or could always go the not-stormbolter route for the wrist of the baton hand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 06:49:12
BobtheInquisitor wrote: They are priced like restics with about the same amount of options that come in a restic kit.
Options? In a restic kit?
All my KoW restic has 2 body options, 2 arm poses, no command, no spare heads. Hell, the entire ogre army only has 2 bodies.
Even the best restic kit for options, the corp marines, only has three special weapons on a sprue which require cutting/ conversion to fit, and only 9 rifles in the kit instead of 10, so the leader always has to have the "Corporation correctional power fist" equipped.
It's one of the main reasons why I dislike Mantic's implementation of the material, there's never enough stuff in the box to give a unit all of its options, never mind spare heads or sculpt variety.
Peacekeepers are offering a lot more than that, just having 5 different poses and heavy weapons on the sprue is an infinite improvement over what came before.
So is 7 heads per 5 minis on the zombie sprue. Way, way better than restic where you basically get zero spares.
I like where they're going with this. If the kit sells well, then a melee-focused kit later on is likely to happen. They'll have to release something for the Enforcers during the Warpath KS, if they want to split the army off the corporation list and Melee peacekeepers and recon units would do very nicely.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2014/02/15 10:34:01
The focus on it having to all fit on one sprue is disappointing. The best thing would have been a sprue with bodies, heads, arms, basic weapons and some customization bits and bobs (different arms and heads) then ANOTHER sprue with special, heavy and close combat options.
Yes, I know sprues cost money to design and create but why would a company intentionally limit the marketability of a product? Maybe plan for the future a bit is all I'm saying. I get that Deadzone is a board game, not a full-on wargame but with a little forethought this unit in hard plastic can be warpath ready.
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As it is there is probably already two sprues required just to fit it into a Mantic case. These are pretty chunky models and pieces, quite likely that the torso and legs will have to be 2-part.
Remember, as the zombies showed, the renders don't show the final components in their fully-divided up state. If they've had to have a few things wait for a separate sprue in the future to make sure that this one is good quality with no detail loss from render to sculpt then that's fine with me.
For all we know, they've already done one sprue with legs, bodies and heads and the other just with arms and weapons to allow for that expandability in future.
It is much better than them rushing to cram as many components as possible on, but then the legs or whatever have some horrible undercut-caused detail loss on there due to not being sub-divided properly.
Taking things a little more slowly in this case, just doing the shooty stuff now and leaving melee for later (if enough people ask for it) is a good thing.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/02/15 14:05:33
I hope they don't separate the torso and legs (it doesn't look like that's the plan) while it works on some models the waist join looks to obvious and unnatural on others particularly armoured models - it's okay with clothing the older enforcer models don't look as good in 2 pieces as the newer 1 piece ones. There's 5 body types/poses plenty of variation for a unit like this in 1 piece bodies.
I'd assume the sprue will be a similar size to the zombie and that it would be easier to come up with a new type of packaging if they don't fit the current boxes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 14:06:11
Actually, hitting something with the hand of a suit of power armor would probably be the dumbest thing you could do in hand to hand. The hand of the suit would be one of the most delicate bits due to the number of small, moving parts. You try punchung something with even reasonably sturdy armor, you're going to shatter your suit's hands.
I know that in the case of melee weapons, in 40K the power fist is not doing the majority of the damage with it's punching, but the powered field that the large capacitors the the enlarged gauntlet are carrying. You are basically holding on and letting the power field rip the target apart.
Punching with the Peacekeeper gauntlet would not hurt the gauntlet, because of the enlarged "brass knuckle" section that protects the fingers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 15:03:47
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Close combat wise, I would love to see energy escrima weapons and I'd love them to keep the claws on the guys. And the shields and shotguns. Basically, only things I would have liked changed were the maces to escrima sticks. That's about all. The poses are great, and I'm pretty sure I'll end up with 30-40 peacekeepers when all is said and done. Already in for 20 so far, I think.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: They are priced like restics with about the same amount of options that come in a restic kit.
Options? In a restic kit?
All my KoW restic has 2 body options, 2 arm poses, no command, no spare heads. Hell, the entire ogre army only has 2 bodies.
Even the best restic kit for options, the corp marines, only has three special weapons on a sprue which require cutting/ conversion to fit, and only 9 rifles in the kit instead of 10, so the leader always has to have the "Corporation correctional power fist" equipped.
That was the kit I was thinking of. In any case, beating their terribly repetitive restics with only awfully repetitive plastics is not that great an improvement for the same price per mini. With hard plastic, pricing should reflect the number of sprues and options rather than the size of the hombres. The Peacekeeper kit just strikes me a very expensive for what it is, let alone what it will probably turn out to be. After the M@A, Mantic should be giving away any decent plastics by the bucket to help repair their reputation, not taking a page from GW's playbook.
That was the kit I was thinking of. In any case, beating their terribly repetitive restics with only awfully repetitive plastics is not that great an improvement for the same price per mini. With hard plastic, pricing should reflect the number of sprues and options rather than the size of the hombres. The Peacekeeper kit just strikes me a very expensive for what it is, let alone what it will probably turn out to be. After the M@A, Mantic should be giving away any decent plastics by the bucket to help repair their reputation, not taking a page from GW's playbook.
To play devil's advocate, were Mantic to release this elite unit for say, $15 retail for 5 models, that would be wonderfully cheap (compared to the alternative at least) and tons of people would buy them in droves. This is great, until you look at the impact it has on the rest of the game's ecosystem. If I can build an Enforcer army with these and a minimal number of Enforcers who are, for the sake of argument, $25 for 10 then I will buy these and the Enforcer sprues and run an Enforcer army. 70 models on the table (2 Enforcers, 10 PeaceKeepers) for $200 is really nice. Any other army would be noticeably more expensive to build, because I'd have to have more expensive restic elites or buy dramatically more troop sprues (see also: Imperial Guard fatigue). While there are many reasons that half of 40k players are Space Marines of which cost is only one, at that point the Enforcers would trodding nearly the exact same path to becoming the most (over)played army in WP.
You'd also have to question how effective PeaceKeepers could be made in-game if they're a thing that everyone and their mother fields 50 of every game. If they're made as powerful as their role in the background suggests, WarPath becomes an incredibly boring affair. If they don't make them good or are so limited by choices you can only take 20, people lose interest because the models aren't that effective in the game and rants about Mantic pulls a bait-and-switch with the rules would ensue from the people who bought them prior to the re-do of WarPath coming out.
GW's "charge for its role in the game" plan isn't a completely stupid idea. GW's failing is the price of basic troops is astronomically high, so everything else gets pushed higher as a result. If you have a sane baseline for troops, potentially even losing a small amount on some of the swarm-style armies to keep overall army $$ costs even, then that model works out pretty well for everyone. Consumers know what the pricing bands look like when they're trying to build up a force and gamers get more variety on the tabletop because there aren't the "poster boys" getting all the cool toys in addition to being less expensive.
Like Squig, I'm more interested in what they're charging for basic Enforcers and, by extension, what one of the better core choices (assuming the Enforcers become their own deal) is going to be priced at.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/15 19:46:15
So, hard plastic would still be a huge improvement over restic.. 50 hard plastic minis in the army set rather than 31 hybrid restics, and 10 of them rather large models.
All just speculation, but I'm fairly sure this is how it might pan out, I can see them being priced a little higher than the current warpath hard plastics (and possibly some of the newer ones), but not by much.
As long as they put the fusion gun and thermal rifle on the sprue I'll be fine with that. If the metal model for that equipment option in the DZ survey indicates that there won't be special weapons included on the enforcer sprue, I'll be less enthusiastic to say the least.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/02/15 20:32:04
