Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
NTRabbit wrote: Through their own webstores they should be able to offer the "basegame contents plus pick your 2 factions" custom kit, which should be easy for Mantic at least in the warehouse given the way they put together the Xmas boxes from crates of baggies, but with enough different armies to choose from it makes it difficult and expensive to make one of every combination ready to ship to retailers.
They don't need to make every combination for retail, but even if they did that would only be four permutations per season. And making a combination would be dirt cheap. Each season would require five boxes, four of which they have to make anyway:
The "Home field" box - that season's rulebook, cards, dice, pitch, counters, etc.
Team #1
Team #2
Team #3
Team #4
Put the Home Field box, Team #1 box and Team #2 box in a pile. Print out a wraparound strip that says something like "Dreadball Xtreme Season 1 starter bundle: Asterians Vs Convicts!" Shrink wrap the whole thing. Done.
Making it is easy.
Convincing retailers to stock 6 different permutations per season (1+2, 1+3, 1+4, 2+3, 2+4, 3+4) is another thing entirely - hence why it's something they could do on their own webstore, where you're sacrificing speed of acquisition, postage costs and the retailer discount for the convenience, which doesn't undercut sales of the normal box through retailers who really aren't interested in carrying more than one SKU for the base game.
The only alternative is to make it so that the base game contains no team at all, and encourage retailers to combine it with the independent team blisters they already offer, but that then undermines the idea of Dreadball being a fully functional boardgame in a box.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 08:56:29
Sining wrote: Couldn't you just buy the game board and the kickoff extra time which contains the cards you need to play? That's about 5 pounds cheaper than the DB kick-off edition on their website but the KO edition doesn't have cards. So it's probably different by a larger margin
It gets you the bare bones, without the counters, physical rulebook, dice, rosters, bases or Kickstarter discounts. It does not provide any incentive to buy via the Kickstarter instead of waiting for retail.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
Considering it's a bit too late to get it via Kickstarter, isn't complaining about getting it without the KS discounts or having incentives to buy via KS a bit of a moot point?
Actually, iirc weren't bases an add-on in the KS?
I suppose you could point out they should sell the rosters via their store but it's not really something I see moving a lot of units. Kinda weird they don't sell s1 rulebooks by themselves though
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/
Sining wrote: Considering it's a bit too late to get it via Kickstarter, isn't complaining about getting it without the KS discounts or having incentives to buy via KS a bit of a moot point?
No, because there is another Dreadball Kickstarter starting this Friday, which would make this a perfect time to stop wallowing in mediocrity.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
wanting Mantic to have more complicated picking and packing of individual bits seems a bit foolish based on how poorly they've coped with doing this on previous KS projects
having as much as possible put in a big box at the factory with all the bits in to cut down on miss-packs seems a smart way to go
They don't need to make every combination for retail, but even if they did that would only be four permutations per season. And making a combination would be dirt cheap. Each season would require five boxes.... Done.
Entirely possible for their website, but for retail, that's a terrible, terrible idea. Multiple SKUs for the same product is bad when it comes to retail. Every SKU that is added to a product is a greater chance for error, more warehouse storage space, more logistical problems for distributors (and resupply). Even companies like Nintendo and Sony know this and keep the number of "starter sets" for their multi-billion-dollar video game systems to around three SKUs at any point in the system's lifecycle.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
Man I really want to like and get behind Mantic, they seem like great people with some really good ideas, but everything i read (yes I know it's the internet everything is negative) makes me really question if the games and company is going to be viable longterm. I bought the KoW rulebook to plan playing that but I have real second thoughts with the overall quality of everything they do :(
Just buy some KoW minis and play if you want to (or use your existing warhammer fantasy army with KoW rules), I can't see why internet complaints about someone not getting a reply to their email or unhappy that a kickstarter isn't structured how they'd like would stop you from doing that. A lot of it is just noise, there's 5 pages of discussion in this thread about a hypothetical RRP of a model kit that hasn't been released yet, with loud complaints based on assumptions that it will be just as expensive as GW kits.
Come over to the Mantic subforum or the Mantic forums, or the various facebook groups if you want someplace that is more focused on discussing playing the games and painting the minis rather than idle internet rants, this thread itself will mostly be made up of that, no matter how many things Mantic get right (and there is a lot of stuff that they do get right).
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/02/18 15:46:15
Yeah this isn't the best place to discuss Mantics news and rumours, this is Mantics complaints thread, though it's got a lot better since using the ignore button!
WayneTheGame wrote: Man I really want to like and get behind Mantic, they seem like great people with some really good ideas, but everything i read (yes I know it's the internet everything is negative) makes me really question if the games and company is going to be viable longterm. I bought the KoW rulebook to plan playing that but I have real second thoughts with the overall quality of everything they do :(
It's honestly the quality of the rules that keeps me coming back. I use Kings of War with Mantic minis, Gamezone minis, Mierce minis, Games Workshop minis, and the rules are still great no matter what figures I use them with
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
WayneTheGame wrote: Man I really want to like and get behind Mantic, they seem like great people with some really good ideas, but everything i read (yes I know it's the internet everything is negative) makes me really question if the games and company is going to be viable longterm. I bought the KoW rulebook to plan playing that but I have real second thoughts with the overall quality of everything they do :(
Don't let the thread get you down. I know that I am in love with Deadzone (as is my group) and our second survey (including people who are jumping on with us) is up over $1,400 because of it.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
AlexHolker wrote:Mantic's community manager is an idiot.
I posted on their forums about how they should make it possible to get into the game with the teams the customer wants instead of being stuck with the two teams Mantic wants, and his response was that you can already buy all the components separately. There's just one problem: Dreadball with thirty pounds of teams you don't want and Dreadball with no teams costs the same bloody amount.
Well, if you're gonna start calling me names, you could at least quote me properly
What I actually said was: Not sure how realistic that is from a product point of view. A self-contained starter box, which costs less than getting all the bits individually, is the best way to sell the game through retail stockists like FLGSs. With DreadBall, all the component parts are available - it's just not as good a deal as getting the starter box.
Which is entirely true, and (as various people on this thread have already said) is no different to how any sensible company does things. Look at video game consoles or two-player starter sets from other tabletop gaming systems. And yes, also as people have said, adding a heap of different options for the starter box is just extra work for the warehouse, which I think we can all agree is a bad idea.
Zweischneid wrote:Yeah right.
It's Mantic, no?
We're talking about the company that made a 40 quid alternative "elemental" chess game with only 1 Bishop, 1 Knight, etc,, per colour, asking you to buy 15 quid chess-pieces expansions to get a complete set of chess-figures for each colour.
LOKA has four factions in it, though (two good and two evil), so you've still got two of each of the relevant pieces if you want to play regular chess. If you want to play LOKA, you only need one of each of those pieces to start with - and you can then expand them by getting the add-on sets. Putting four 18-piece sets would have ramped the price way up.
Sining wrote:Considering it's a bit too late to get it via Kickstarter, isn't complaining about getting it without the KS discounts or having incentives to buy via KS a bit of a moot point?
Actually, iirc weren't bases an add-on in the KS?
I suppose you could point out they should sell the rosters via their store but it's not really something I see moving a lot of units. Kinda weird they don't sell s1 rulebooks by themselves though
Rosters and S1 rulebooks you mean? Good point, we should totally sell those.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 17:30:20
Summary sheet and other bits are available here, but there are some awesome playthroughs on YouTube that make things nice and clear. DreadBall Academy is one I normally point people to, but be aware that it's pretty long-winded and involves watching me drop loads of dice. There are several others - miniwargaming did one, andy2d6 did a series of bite-sized ones, squidgybidge has got a good one... have a google and see what you can see.
LOKA has four factions in it, though (two good and two evil), so you've still got two of each of the relevant pieces if you want to play regular chess. If you want to play LOKA, you only need one of each of those pieces to start with - and you can then expand them by getting the add-on sets. Putting four 18-piece sets would have ramped the price way up.
Shuuro sells with nearly 3 times as many pieces for 10 quid less. 4-18 piece sets for a 40 quid alternative chess set would still have been pricey (and still had less pieces than Shuuro).
And you basically need expansions for at least two player to play Loka as intended (i.e. build different "armies") or play a standard game of chess with two colours.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/18 18:06:42
It's honestly the quality of the rules that keeps me coming back. I use Kings of War with Mantic minis, Gamezone minis, Mierce minis, Games Workshop minis, and the rules are still great no matter what figures I use them with
This. I really like Deadzone's rules, especially for a 1st edition. Sure there are some mechanics that need to be cleaned-up but it's a great system...especially when compared to 40k; it's not as clean as WarmaHordes yet but it'll get there.
@Wayne. I'm one of the biggest complainers in this thread but it's not because I don't like Mantic, it's because they have the talent and potential to do something great for the community and themselves if they would just stop half-arsing on the delivery side of the equation. Geat concepts, big ideas, sometimes poor execution. Maybe it's growing pains but they keep making the same mistakes over and over (or what I perceive as mistakes).
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
There all great videos to watch. IMO Mantic release some very nice rulesetes (well Jake and Alessio does). You don't have to use there minis, after all the DB, DZ and KoW restic I can honestly say I will try my best not to buy there restic anymore.
Because I just complained about there restic thats allright, right? I didn't complain about complainers, which is not allright, right? Though I did compliment (positive input!) Mantic on there rulesets in the same reply as complaining (not positive input!) about them, is that allright?
Funny. For me, it's almost exactly the other way around.
I really like the Mantic miniatures. They have a playful, throwback tone to them that I can really get behind.
On the other hand, I think Mantic is far too expensive for what they do and the rules are often iffy. DreadBall Judwan were a mighty big mess (though, to their credit, they fixed it quickly) and DreadBall overall is still heavily Striker-biased. I still haven't figured out how to included MvPs in a fair and balanced fashion without basically "manually" balancing each game involving MvPs.
Hell, the latest expansion, Azure Forest, included a special MvP for 2014 tournaments, who is "legal for official Tournaments in 2014 only", even thought the official tournament-rules printed in the same expansion tells you black-on-white that MvPs aren't used in official tournaments!!
I still think there will not be a single "official" DreadBall tournament (in the UK at least, including Nottingham), where I can legally use the "official 2014 tournament MvP. Any tournament allowing MvPs - including the official tournament MvP - essentially must not use the official tournament rules.
Also, Loka is a failure by most people's account, except for the miniatures (even if there are too few of them in the box to do the "Loka-thing" and build variant line-ups).
Spoiler:
Also, I'd recommend anyone watching BoW-videos to remember that BoW excised any hint of critical opinion towards the companies that sponsor/support them a long, long, long, long time ago.
BoW videos are very well made, no doubt, but their Brave-New-World-like everything-is-great approach to Mantic/Privateer/Corvus Belli, who support them, is almost frightning.
They are outsourced marketing videos, and they are good at it, but not the source I'd go to for an unbiased opinion about these kind of games.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/02/18 18:53:30
"It's like they're trying to make a miniatures game out of chess."
Um, yeah, duh. That's kinda the point. That entire argument was against was against the premise of the game, not it's implementation. You might as well do a review slamming, "The Resistance" with the argument of, "I don't like talking to groups of people."
It's not like the fact the game uses dice would have been a hidden secret.
I mean, if the guy had said something like, 'the board falls apart, the models are floppy, red always wins and you can get hammered if the giant badger terrain piece is put in front of your king' then I'd probably say, 'you know what, fair point, maybe this is a poor game.'
Slamming it because you don't like the concept, well... I don't write horror films, so therefore I should go onto IMDB and give every single one 1 star.
- And I'm not even interested at all in Loka.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 19:16:30
Compel wrote: "It's like they're trying to make a miniatures game out of chess."
Um, yeah, duh. That's kinda the point. That entire argument was against was against the premise of the game, not it's implementation. You might as well do a review slamming, "The Resistance" with the argument of, "I don't like talking to groups of people."
It's not like the fact the game uses dice would have been a hidden secret.
I mean, if the guy had said something like, 'the board falls apart, the models are floppy, red always wins and you can get hammered if the giant badger terrain piece is put in front of your king' then I'd probably say, 'you know what, fair point, maybe this is a poor game.'
Slamming it because you don't like the concept, well... I don't write horror films, so therefore I should go onto IMDB and give every single one 1 star.
- And I'm not even interested at all in Loka.
/shrug
Glad nobody ever criticizes Warhammer 40K for not being balanced and with the argument of "I don't like narrative gaming". when it's explicit premise is being a narrative game.
If a game's premise/concept is inherently flawed (in a reviewer's opinion), one's gotta have the right to say that, no?
I don't even agree with the Dice Tower review, but its one-sided bashing of Loka is no more misguided than BoW's one-sided, nonreflective fawning over Mantic's output.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/18 19:27:16
That would depend on the nature of the videos and articles.
Sure, BoW fawn over things and you do sometimes need to listen a bit carefully into finding out what the guys really think. Most of the time, they don't do a 'Review' though. It's an introduction, how the game works, what the background is. Sure, they may highlight their thoughts, but ultimately, their job isn't normally to answer.
"Should I buy this game or not?" - Which is what a review does, in my mind.
Instead, I tend to see the BoW videos of. "Ok, I've heard about this game, lets see what it's about." - It's answering a related, but very different question.
Yeah, it's fair enough to say they're 'external marketing' I think. - Though I imagine BoW would probably put it along the lines of 'increasing knowledge for people about the various games.'
But yeah, the impression I got was, "Loka is an objectively bad game because reviewers say it is, as illustrated by this Dice Tower guy shows" doesn't sit right with me.
In any case, this discussion, while Mantic related, isn't really sci-fi-ey enough for me.
But yeah, the impression I got was, "Loka is an objectively bad game because reviewers say it is, as illustrated by this Dice Tower guy shows" doesn't sit right with me.
.
Not really. My original point was that Loka (a) is very expensive and (b) doesn't give you the pieces in the box to employ one of its advertised main features... build different "chess armies".
Later, a statement was made that Mantic produces (a) good rules but (b) not-so-good miniatures.
To that, I replied that my personal impression was that Mantic tends to produce (a) fun (if not "good") miniatures but (b) bad rules.
I illustrated this inverse observations with several examples of bad rules from DreadBall (which I played heavily, and which is (!) sci-fi too, if you wanna focus on that) and a Loka-review (which I only played twice) by a highly-regarded board-game reviewer, who praises the miniatures but dislikes the rules (or the premise of the rules). If nothing else, note how Tom Vasel praises the miniatures. They are the least problematic thing in Mantic's offering.
Hope that makes it clearer.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/02/18 19:49:51
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
