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easysauce wrote:
you are not quoteing RAW
pg 32
"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

psychic powers fall into the category of ability, and whenever means whenever, not just "whenever you feel like it"

I'm directly quoting RAW. I'm afraid you're misreading it.
The rule on page 32 states a Psychic power might grant Special Rules. Not all do. They are not themselves Special Rules.

easysauce wrote:
also, psyker, is listed under the USR page 41 as a SPECIAL RULE

"psyker: a model with THIS SPECIAL RULE is a psyker."

And?
Psyker is a Special Rule. It allows a model to use Psychic powers. That doesn't mean all Psychic powers are suddenly Special Rules.

Lets see...

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.

I could make an argument since psyker is a special rule anything granted by it cannot stack unless explicitly stated.

Looked up the Warlock power, It is indeed a rule sentence, there are no general rules stated for psychic powers in 4th. I am still leaning towards all of the sentences being very specific and not just reminders.

I also looked up stacking in the 6th ed BRB, In pretty much every situation I can find, if something stacks it directly states that it does stacks. Including and excluding psychic powers.

Which means you could make an argument for Intent. That's fine. Make that argument.

RAW fact psyker is a special rule,its on pg 41 listed as a USR

which is fully explained on pg 66-69

do you get it now? pgs 66-69 on the psyker "special rule" include every power they cast

all those details under pg66-69, are part of the psyker special rule

so you cannot argue powers are not special rules, they are different effects of the same special rule "psyker" the powers are all included in the USR psykers

quote ONE thing in the book to support your argument,

 jegsar wrote:
Lets see...

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.

I could make an argument since psyker is a special rule anything granted by it cannot stack unless explicitly stated.

Psyker is a Special Rule.
It allows the use of Psychic powers.
There is no RAW argument that this would magically make Psychic Powers count as Special Rules.
The Special Rules section even says Psychic Powers might grant Special Rules, but definitely doesn't say the powers themselves are Special Rules.

quoting more of the rule book
RAW
pg 32

"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule [/u. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage, by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost [u]to its strength."

also pg 32 "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more then once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."
also pg 32 "a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers,"

pg 32
"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

psychic powers fall into the category of ability, and whenever means whenever, not just "whenever you feel like it"

also, psyker, is listed under the USR page 41 as a SPECIAL RULE

"psyker: a model with THIS SPECIAL RULE is a psyker."

RAW fact psyker is a special rule,its on pg 41 listed as a USR

which is fully explained on pg 66-69

do you get it now? pgs 66-69 on the psyker "special rule" include every power they cast

all those details under pg66-69, are part of the psyker special rule

easysauce wrote:
RAW fact psyker is a special rule,its on pg 41 listed as a USR

which is fully explained on pg 66-69

do you get it now? pgs 66-69 on the psyker "special rule" include every power they cast

all those details under pg66-69, are part of the psyker special rule

so you cannot argue powers are not special rules, they are different effects of the same special rule "psyker" the powers are all included in the USR psykers

How many Psychic powers are listed in the pages you've just quoted?
None. Not one.
I can very easily argue that Powers are not Special Rules.
The Special Rules section supports this.
No powers are listed in the "Psykers" section, which as you say is a special rule.
There is nothing to support the argument that Powers are Special Rules, but there is support they aren't.

Ah but powers are blessing for examples. The rules for blessing are covered on those pages.

Now that same rule makes sense for everything stated in blessings/maledictions and also specific powers that do state that they do stack.

 grendel083 wrote:

No powers are listed in the "Psykers" section, which as you say is a special rule.
There is nothing to support the argument that Powers are Special Rules, but there is support they aren't.

again, you quote no actual rules,

and in fact every power is covered under the pg 66 psykers section, or you couldn't cast them, it includes the rules for resolving every psychic power,

sorry but you are not quoting RAW,

you are ignoring several actual rules

quoting more of the rule book
RAW
pg 32

"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule [/u. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage, by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost [u]to its strength."

also pg 32 "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more then once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."
also pg 32 "a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers,"

pg 32
"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

psychic powers fall into the category of ability, this rule is a catch all for everything whenever means whenever, not just "whenever you feel like it"

also, psyker, is listed under the USR page 41 as a SPECIAL RULE

"psyker: a model with THIS SPECIAL RULE is a psyker."

RAW fact psyker is a special rule,its on pg 41 listed as a USR

which is fully explained on pg 66-69

do you get it now? pgs 66-69 on the psyker "special rule" include every power they cast

all those details under pg66-69, are part of the psyker special rule

BRB page 32 wrote:...a model might get Special Rules as the result of Psychic Powers...

I don't know how you can look at this rule and misread it as "Psychic Powers are Special Rules"
It's simply not what it says.

aside from powers being in the USR section?

what part of pg 41, TBC on pg 66 dont you get?

powers are in the BRB USR section,

hence why the rules say they are a USR

what part of that dont you get?

easysauce wrote:
sorry but you are not quoting RAW,

I have, several times, I don't need to re-quote every time.

"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule [/u. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage, by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost [u]to its strength."

Does not apply. Explained earlier.

also pg 32 "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more then once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."
also pg 32 "a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers,"

Thank you for supporting my argument. This states Powers might grant special rules, not that they are special rules.

I'll stop there, you're just repeating points that have been disproven. Read back the last two pages please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
aside from powers being in the USR section?

They're not. Simple as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
what part of that dont you get?

The imaginary part.

you opinion on HYWPI, but you use pg 67 to justify casting a codex power multiple times, but then contend your power is not part of the special rule those rules are a part of.

only special rules can modify the rules (be it stats, or whatever, pg 32 is clear on this)

if its not a special rule, then you dont have permission to modify stats or gain abilities

and again, im all for str 10 grey knights, but the rules dont back up your theory, they DO say
again, you quote no actual rules,

and in fact every power is covered under the pg 66 psykers section, or you couldn't cast them, it includes the rules for resolving every psychic power,

sorry but you are not quoting RAW,

you are ignoring several actual rules

quoting more of the rule book
RAW
pg 32

"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule [/u. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage, by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost [u]to its strength."

also pg 32 "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more then once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."
also pg 32 "a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers,"

pg 32
"whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

psychic powers fall into the category of ability, this rule is a catch all for everything whenever means whenever, not just "whenever you feel like it"

also, psyker, is listed under the USR page 41 as a SPECIAL RULE

"psyker: a model with THIS SPECIAL RULE is a psyker."

RAW fact psyker is a special rule,its on pg 41 listed as a USR

which is fully explained on pg 66-69

do you get it now? pgs 66-69 on the psyker "special rule" include every power they cast

all those details under pg66-69, are part of the psyker special rule

psyker is 100% a special rule, pg 41 says this RAW set in stone

and it is explained on pgs 66-69, that whole section is all special rules.

Psyker is a special rule.
You have failed to demonstrate that the Psyker special rule is adding +1 STR to a unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
Psyker is a special rule.
You have failed to demonstrate that the Psyker special rule is adding +1 STR to a unit.

no i have not, casting powers is covered under the psyker special rule.

casting powers is a special rule, everything that uses those special rules from 66-69 is a special rule,

Psyker is a Special Rule. 100% agree.
Why should everything under a Special Rule also be a Special Rule?

Furious Charge is a Special Rule.
Is the +1 Str granted by Furious Charge also a special rule? Can you prove it if you think it is?

Stealth is a Special Rule.
Does this mean that cover saves are now Special Rules?
By your logic yes.

Outflank is a Special Rule.
Does that mean Deployment is now a Special Rule?
According to you, yes.

Psyker is a Special Rule.
So what makes Powers a Special Rule, when even the Special Rules section disagrees with you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
[everything that uses those special rules from 66-69 is a special rule,

Prove it.
This is what your argument hangs on. Can you prove this?

easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Psyker is a special rule.
You have failed to demonstrate that the Psyker special rule is adding +1 STR to a unit.

no i have not, casting powers is covered under the psyker special rule.

casting powers is a special rule, everything that uses those special rules from 66-69 is a special rule

Casting powers is a special rule. Cite a rule showing that transfers down the line to the powers.
What you're saying is that the Psyker special rule is giving the buff when that's demonstrably untrue.

Quotes....

 grendel083 wrote:

How many Psychic powers are listed in the pages you've just quoted?
None. Not one.
I can very easily argue that Powers are not Special Rules.
The Special Rules section supports this.
No powers are listed in the "Psykers" section, which as you say is a special rule.
There is nothing to support the argument that Powers are Special Rules, but there is support they aren't.

Powers aren't special rules but they are an effect of a special rules.
I can easily argue that everything under special rules stacks unless explicitly stated. (This has been previously quoted and you said you don't want it repeated) Just to point out it says benefit of a
special rule.
Psyker is in that section, blessings is in pages 66-69. psychic powers state that they are blessings/maledictions and therefore follow all of the rules for them.

Now it says no special rules stack.
The sentence in blessings

Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative...

has a purpose allowing different psychic powers to stack that would not to otherwise.
Look that sentence that had no purpose 8 pages ago now has a purpose.

Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66.

means starting on page 66 "psykers" are the full rules for this special rule.

Everything under a rule is covered by all the rules from the high level of inheridence unless specfically overruled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:Psyker is a Special Rule. 100% agree.
Why should everything under a Special Rule also be a Special Rule?

Furious Charge is a Special Rule.
Is the +1 Str granted by Furious Charge also a special rule? Can you prove it if you think it is?

Stealth is a Special Rule.
Does this mean that cover saves are now Special Rules?
By your logic yes.

Outflank is a Special Rule.
Does that mean Deployment is now a Special Rule?
According to you, yes.

Psyker is a Special Rule.
So what makes Powers a Special Rule, when even the Special Rules section disagrees with you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
[everything that uses those special rules from 66-69 is a special rule,

Prove it.
This is what your argument hangs on. Can you prove this?

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Psyker is a special rule.
You have failed to demonstrate that the Psyker special rule is adding +1 STR to a unit.

no i have not, casting powers is covered under the psyker special rule.

casting powers is a special rule, everything that uses those special rules from 66-69 is a special rule

Casting powers is a special rule. Cite a rule showing that transfers down the line to the powers.
What you're saying is that the Psyker special rule is giving the buff when that's demonstrably untrue.

Doesn't matter, it is a benefit of a special rule., what allows seperate powers to stack is that sentence i just gave meaning to

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Psyker is a special rule.
You have failed to demonstrate that the Psyker special rule is adding +1 STR to a unit.

no i have not, casting powers is covered under the psyker special rule.

casting powers is a special rule, everything that uses those special rules from 66-69 is a special rule

Casting powers is a special rule. Cite a rule showing that transfers down the line to the powers.
What you're saying is that the Psyker special rule is giving the buff when that's demonstrably untrue.

ok finally,

you admit psyker is a special rule

where by pg 32 "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benifit of a special rule more then once"

the special rule is psyker, the benefit, weather it is hammer hand, +1str, or whatever, is of that special rule

hence not stacking, that is how it transfers

Casting a power is a benefit of a special rule.
The buff the power causes is not the benefit of the special rule - it's the benefit of the power.

rigeld2 wrote:
Casting a power is a benefit of a special rule.
The buff the power causes is not the benefit of the special rule - it's the benefit of the power.

Seconded.
There is still no evidence that Powers are Special Rules, only evidence that they are not.

rigeld2 wrote:
Casting a power is a benefit of a special rule.
The buff the power causes is not the benefit of the special rule - it's the benefit of the power.

except thats not RAW

thats just HYWPI

RAW put all "resolve psychic power" part, which includes benefits, under the psykers special rule.

now at least you admit casting the power is a result of a special rule "psykers

, resolving the power's benefits, is all a result of the special rule psykers as well, despite you not acknowledging that

which as you have admitted is in fact a special rule (not that you need to admit it, pg 41 says so)

you cannot resolve any psychic power without the special rule "psyker" so any benifits of it are due to the special rule, and cant be stack by RAW

easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Casting a power is a benefit of a special rule.
The buff the power causes is not the benefit of the special rule - it's the benefit of the power.

except thats not RAW

thats just HYWPI

RAW put all "resolve psychic power" part, which includes benefits, under the psykers special rule.

casting the power, resolving the power's benefits, is all part of the special rule psykers,

Untrue.
Page 41 says that the special rule is Psyker. Psyker is defined on page 66. It also is the title for the chapter, so I understand the confusion - so Manifesting a Psychic Power is a benefit of a Psyker, but the actual buff is not.

which as you have admitted is in fact a special rule (not that you need to admit it, pg 41 says so)

Not that I ever denied it... So I'm not sure why you're touting this as a victory...

The power is a benefit from the psyker rule, everything that power does is therefore (even indirectly or directly doesn't matter) a benefit of that special rule.

so if psychic powers are not special rules, then why do they get to bend/break normal rules?

because only special rules can do that,

if they are not special rules, then they cant break/bend the rules like powers do


most special rules have about a paragraph to expain them,

the pysker special rule has a chapter to explain it, because it has so many special rules in it.

the only reason its not in the same pages as the other USR is because it takes 4 pages, and its the only one to do so, so to keep the alphabetical listing of the other USR's they gave it its own chapter,

it is still a USR,

every single power you cast follows the special rules for "psyker"

every benifit is a result of those special rules, as well as the rules for the power, and the benifits dont stack as stated on pg 32

easysauce wrote:
so if psychic powers are not special rules, then why do they get to bend/break normal rules?

because only special rules can do that,

if they are not special rules, then they cant break/bend the rules like powers do

Citation required. I don't think you'll find something that says only special rules can break the rules.

easysauce wrote:
because only special rules can do that

False.
Special Rules can do, where does it say they are the only thing that can? The Special Rules section certainly doesn't.

The power is a benefit from the psyker rule, everything that power does is therefore (even indirectly or directly doesn't matter) a benefit of a special rule (Pskyer).

 jegsar wrote:
The power is a benefit from the psyker rule, everything that power does is therefore (even indirectly or directly doesn't matter) a benefit of that special rule.

So every wound caused in the first round of an assault from Adrenal Gland Nids is a benefit of a special rule?
Assaulting out of a Land Raider means that all wounds are caused as a benefit of a special rule?

Edit: also, posting the same thing over and over doesn't help your argument.

No it doesn't but since it was ignored as were multiple of my last posts it did get your attention.

And yes by the definition of benefit, all those statements you said are true. Example, Benefit of an internet connection is keeping in touch with family, though in fact the only direct benifit of the internet is a few extra connections.

Remember it doesn't actually talk about stacking it actually states

cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once.