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nosferatu1001 wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
When there are multiple, now answer yes or no to my question.

And 2 of the same rule is a multiple, meaning you have RuleS in play

The whole of Hammerhand is not a special rule. The second part of hammerhand, whcih alters the rules on page 2, is. +1S isnt.

So, you have now confirmed you can stack the +1S, but only get the "before multipliers" rule once - which is all you need

Thanks for proving our argument, you can stop now!

so now only parts of special rules are special rules? other parts of special rules are not?

who gave you authority to cherry pick what is special and what is not?

by definition, the rules state you are at STR= to your stat line, you can modify that rule with a special one,

+str and applying the modifier before everything else is all the benefit of the same special rule, which by RAW cannot be stacked with itself

LOL,

HH modifies the timing and therefore it is a special rule. You cannot benefits from a special rule more then once. =1 strength is part of that special rule, therefore you cannot gain it more then once.

2 of the same rule is still A rule, not multiple rules. it's multiple applications/instanced/time applied of that singular rule.

Except two of the same rule is a multiple, meaning you have RuleS in play...

It is 1 rule, that is being used twice, doesn't matter for the purpose of this argument since HH is a special rule (no disputes on changing the timing yet) and you cannot gain it's benefits more then once.

No Hammerhand is a psychic power. Or are you going to say that Witchfire powers are special rules as well?

1 rules used by two different psykers is multiple (of the same) rule, AKA Rules.

Therefore they can both effect the unit.

Psychic powers are not "Special rules" because if they were they would be in the special rules section.

Anything that modifies the normal rules is represented by a special rule, as per page 32, HH changes the order in which multiple modifiers are applied, that changes the rules, therefore it is a special rule.

No it is the same rule used twice. Therefore 1 rule applied twice. If you trespass on two properties, are you charged with breaking two laws, or changed on 2 counts of 1 law being broken? You have 1 rule being applied/casted/used twice.

BGB:
"We're talking about special rules so early because many of the
other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for
troop types) are tied into the special rules given here."

The parenthetical from this statement tells us specifically that the rules for troop types are not special rules.

TURBO-BOOST
Bikes and letbikes cannot Run, but
can make a special Turbo-boost move,
instead of firing in their Shooting phase.
Turbo-boosting Bikes move up to 12",
turbo-boosting Jetbikes move up to 24" .
Controlling their Bikes at such speeds
takes all the riders' concentration and
skill, however. Bikes and letbikes
therefore cannot shoot, charge or
execute any other voluntary action for
the rest of the turn after Turbo-boosting.

Here is an example of a unit type rule that changes or breaks the normal game rules but is not a special rule (because we're told it's not).

ARMOURED STEED
Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from the
protection offered by their bike, which
increases their Toughness characteristic
by I . If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the
model's standard wargear, this bonus is
already included on its profile.

And here is an example of a unit type rule that IS a characteristic modifier that increases a characteristic even when wargear bonuses are not applicable (and, again, is not a special rule, as is explicitly stated in the special rules section).

In addition, using the very codex this issue comes from, Psychic Powers are listed as separate entities from Special Rules. Each has their own heading in equivalent typeset.

Finally, where the special rules section talks about bending and breaking the normal rules, the section specifically says that "abilities" are the things that do so. Powers (or more specifically, psychic powers) are not abilities.

That said, I am still not convinced that Hammerhand stacks. I just wanted to point out some flaws in reasoning and advance what has become a somewhat stagnant dicussion.

the quality or state of being able ... especially : physical, mental, or legal power to perform.

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

I put forth that Turbo-boost is a main game rule, and so is armored steed. Another main game rule is "Multiple Modifiers" that gets changed when HH (not in the main rulebook) is applied.

The model gains the ability to apply the modifier before others, therefore changing the main game rules which is represented by a special rule called Hammerhand.

Also notice is says "in this tome" , HH is not in this tome so that sentence is not speaking about HH.

Last powers are a benefit from a special rule as stated before, therefore they are tied to special rules more then most, Powers are covered under the rule started on page 66...

A model with this special rule is a
Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in
full detail in their own section starting
on page 66

Therefore the full rules for this special rule start on page 66, which are the basic rules for all powers.

I put forth another question to prove that psychic powers are indeed special rules... Is Eldritch Storm a special rule?

No. It's a Psychic Shooting Attack. Just like Smite, Mind War, Jaws of the World Wolf, Blood Lance, etc.

 Happyjew wrote:
No. It's a Psychic Shooting Attack. Just like Smite, Mind War, Jaws of the World Wolf, Blood Lance, etc.

Eldar Codex page 26:

SPECIAL RULES
Fleet of Foot, Independent Character.
Psychic Powers: A Farseer is a psyker and must
choose between 1 and 4 Farseer psychic powers.
A Farseer can use a single psychic power per turn.

Psychic powers is a subsection of the SPECIAL RULES section in the Farseer Entry.

So yes, it's a special rule, that is a psychic shooting attack, just like everything you listed.

Tied to != the same as.

My point has nothing to do with the fact that the rules come from the rulebook, but that they are rules that are explicitly NOT special rules that bend and break the rules, therefore negating the premise you have been using to say that any ability that bends or breaks the rules is a special rule.

Where in the rules does it say that powers are a benefit of a special rule? Support your argument with citations, please.

The rules for psykers are not the same rules, or even the same types of rules, for psychic powers. The daemon special rule is not the same thing as a daemonic mark or the powers it provides.

Having the psyker special rule unlocks psychic powers (a main game rule, if you will). That doesn't mean that psychic powers are special rules, it merely means that access to them is gained through a special rule.

For example, a Chaos sorcerer that becomes a spawn still has his psychic powers, but cannot use them because he lost the psyker special rule.

To further illustrate my point, note how in the very codex that contains hammerhand lists psychic powers as an entirely separate entity from special rules not only in each unit profile, but also in every unit in the army list that has either the psyker or psychic pilot special rule.

My point is that your current argument does not stand up to scrutiny, so you should find a better one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jegsar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
No. It's a Psychic Shooting Attack. Just like Smite, Mind War, Jaws of the World Wolf, Blood Lance, etc.

Eldar Codex page 26:

SPECIAL RULES
Fleet of Foot, Independent Character.
Psychic Powers: A Farseer is a psyker and must
choose between 1 and 4 Farseer psychic powers.
A Farseer can use a single psychic power per turn.

Psychic powers is a subsection of the SPECIAL RULES section in the Farseer Entry.

So yes, it's a special rule, that is a psychic shooting attack, just like everything you listed.

From the Eldar FAQ, under amendments:

Page 26 – Farseer, Psychic Powers.
Replace this entry with: “A Farseer is a Psyker (Mastery Level 1)
who must purchase between one and four of the Farseer
psychic powers as detailed on page 60 of Codex: Eldar.”

You have spent a lot of time in this thread describing how 4 does not equal 6. Well, I'm here to tell you, 4th edition is different than 6th edition.

Good thing they updated it though, otherwise someone might have misquoted an antiquated rule.

 jegsar wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
No. It's a Psychic Shooting Attack. Just like Smite, Mind War, Jaws of the World Wolf, Blood Lance, etc.

Eldar Codex page 26:

SPECIAL RULES
Fleet of Foot, Independent Character.
Psychic Powers: A Farseer is a psyker and must
choose between 1 and 4 Farseer psychic powers.
A Farseer can use a single psychic power per turn.

Psychic powers is a subsection of the SPECIAL RULES section in the Farseer Entry.

So yes, it's a special rule, that is a psychic shooting attack, just like everything you listed.

Fair enough. Let's look at a more modern (as in 5th or 6th ed) codex.
Let's see
Blood Angels - I don't see Blood Lance under the special rules for Librarian
Chaos Space Marines, Sorcerer, Special Rules "Champion of Chaos, Independent Character, Psyker (Mastery Level 1)" Nope, no mention of psychic powers.
Dark Angels, Librarian, Special Rules "Inner Circle, Independent Character, Psyker (Mastery Level 1)" Nope, no mention of psychic powers there either.
Lets try one more, how about Tyranids?
...
Zoanthropes - Special Rules "Synapse Creature, Psyker, Shadow in the Warp, Warp Field". Nope nothing about Warp Blast/Warp Lance...oh sorry, I see them now. They are listed under Psychic Powers.

Psyker is a special rule (i hope we agree on that statement).

Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66

Does this not mean the rules for the special rule psyker are covered in full detail starting on page 66? labeled "PSYKERS".
Can we agree on these two points so far?

Psyker is a special rule. On that I agree. All that having the Psyker special rule does it makes the model a Psyker and allows it to make use of the rules presented in the section starting on pg 66.

jesgar, if your interpretation were correct you'd never be able to cast the same psychic power more than once per game per psyker, because you'd then be benefiting from the same special rule (psyker) more than once.

So all of it is a benefit from the psyker special rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree, RAW, you cannot not. A mistake like many others in the writing of GW rules.

Being able to cast psychic powers is a benefit of the Psyker rules (which having the Psyker special rule makes you). The psychic powers themselves are not benefits of the rule nor are they special rules.

However if a melta shots 2 different tanks across 2 turns, does it get 2d6 armor pen on both?

In fact it is possible to have psychic powers without being a Psyker at all. It's also possible to be a Psyker and not have any powers.

And the rules for psykers (a special rule) are covered starting on page 66. The reason it isn't in the special rules section is because the amount of rules do not fit there, it makes more sense to put it after for readability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yes, by having another special rule such as the brotherhood of psykers.

 jegsar wrote:
So all of it is a benefit from the psyker special rule?

Let's assume this were the case. Let's take Null Zone for our example:

Turn 1, our Librarian casts Null Zone. It forces the enemy Daemon models in range to reroll their Invulnerable saves. This is obviously a benefit to us.

Turn 2, our Librarian casts Null Zone. It forces the enemy Daemon models in range to reroll their Invulnerable saves. This is obviously a benefit to us. Oops, we've benefitted from the same Special Rule twice, which according to you isn't allowed, as you're apparently not allowed to benefit from the same special rule more than once.

Challenges by RAW used to use the majority toughness... yes they did faq this but is proves very obvious wording errors are possible. Here is this wording error proved incorrect. A melta gun with the melta special rule shoot a tank on turn two, it rolls 2d6 for armor pen, What does it roll when it scores a gak on turn 3? We play it rolls 2d6 even though that is benefiting a second time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and HH still modifies the main rules on page two and is not even in the main "tome" it is not a main rule however it is a special rule based on the rule that states modifications on a main rule are represented by a special rule. I don't care if you call the special rule psyker or HH, a model cannot benefit from it more then once.

 jegsar wrote:
Challenges by RAW used to use the majority toughness... yes they did faq this but is proves very obvious wording errors are possible. Here is this wording error proved incorrect. A melta gun with the melta special rule shoot a tank on turn two, it rolls 2d6 for armor pen, What does it roll when it scores a gak on turn 3? We play it rolls 2d6 even though that is benefiting a second time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and HH still modifies the main rules on page two and is not even in the main "tome" it is not a main rule however it is a special rule based on the rule that states modifications on a main rule are represented by a special rule. I don't care if you call the special rule psyker or HH, a model cannot benefit from it more then once.

Then something with melta or armourbane only gets it the first time. You can only use FNP on the first unsaved Wound you suffer. Legion of the Damned can only make one saving throw for the entire game. Zoanthropes only get a 3+ Invulnerable save once per game...

RAW i agree. Now just like we play it that the Doom can actually kill models and challenges only used the models toughness, how should that sentence read? I read it as the effects from the same special rule are not cumulative, as to use the same wording from the following sentence.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh where to start.....

jeffersonian000 wrote:
A) it is a rule in a codex, not the BRB, as stated on pg. 32

Not all rules in codexes are special rules. Prove otherwise

Pg. 32, BRB, under “What Special Rules Do I Have?”, 2nd thru 4th paragraphs:
“Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain.
“Where this is the case, the rules that govern the psychic powers, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear.
“Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex.”

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:B) provides a modifier to a standard stat line, which is a change (modifier) to an existing rule (stat line)

A stat line is not a rule. Prove otherwise

Pg. 2, BRB, under “Models & Units, 1st and 2nd paragraphs:
“The Citadel Miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.”
“Warhammer 40,000 uses nine different characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models.”
Pg. 3, BRB, under “Characteristic Profiles”, 1st paragraph:
“Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile the lists the values of its characteristics”

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:C) the BRB tells us that effects from psychic powers are SPECIAL RULES on pg. 32.

And here is the major issue you have. You have been shown repeatedly that that is a lie. As in, you cannot keep on repeating it without knowingly committing a falsehood, because you have been shown the proof of this.
Psychic powers MAY give special rules. MAY. Not "Always". "MIGHT". You cannot cite a rule you have changed.
Perhaps acknowledge your error, or will this be another "vehicles are a member of the unit embarked on them" fallacy again?

Pg. 41, BRB, 1st entry:
“PSYKER
A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66.”
Pg. 66, BRB, 1st entry:
“Psykers are warriors gifted with awesome mental powers that enable them to channel the baleful energy of the Warp. While commonly referred to as psychic powers, such abilities are nothing less than sorcery …”
Pg. 66, BRB, under “Psykers”, 2nd paragraph:
“Each Psyker knows one or more psychic powers, as described in their codex.”
Pg. 22, GK Codex, under “Grey Knight Grand Masters”
“SPECIAL RULES: The Aegis, And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 1).”
“PSYCHIC POWERS: Hammerhand (see page 25), Psychic Communion (see page 23)”

Pg. 23, GK Codex, under “Grey Knight Brother-Captains”
“SPECIAL RULES: The Aegis, And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 1).”
“PSYCHIC POWERS: Hammerhand (see page 25)”
Pg. 24, GK Codex, under “Librarians”
“SPECIAL RULES: The Aegis, And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 2).”
“PSYCHIC POWERS: Hammerhand (see opposite)”

While it pains me to post rules on the site, it seems to be the only way to “prove” to some posters on this forum something they can very well read on their own if they weren’t being so obtuse to challenge every single thing their opposition posts.
To restate:
A) All rules in a Codex are special rules, because they change or bend the rules in the BRB, as stated on pg. 32 of the BRB.
B) Stat Lines, the common term for Characteristic Profiles, are indeed rules, as stated on pg. 3 of the BRB.
C) Every rule in the Psyker section of the BRB is a special rule per the special rule entry “Psyker” on pg 41 of the BRB.
D) As such, we can plainly see in many unit entries of the GK Codex where Psyker is listed under Special Rules, and the powers those units have access to are listed under Psychic Powers, not the mention the characteristic profile listed at the beginning of each unit’s rules.
Calling me a liar doesn’t change the fact that the “Stacker” argument is based on 5th Edition FAQ and not on a single entry in the 6th Edition BRB.

As to fallacies, please prove that a unit embarked on a vehicle does not accompany said vehicle … in a different thread from this one.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh where to start.....

jeffersonian000 wrote:
A) it is a rule in a codex, not the BRB, as stated on pg. 32

Not all rules in codexes are special rules. Prove otherwise

Pg. 32, BRB, under “What Special Rules Do I Have?”, 2nd thru 4th paragraphs:
“Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain.
“Where this is the case, the rules that govern the psychic powers, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear.
“Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in their codex.”

This fails to prove that all codex rules are Special Rules.
In fact it show that Psychic Powers are not Special Rules, but sometimes might grant them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:B) provides a modifier to a standard stat line, which is a change (modifier) to an existing rule (stat line)

A stat line is not a rule. Prove otherwise

Pg. 2, BRB, under “Models & Units, 1st and 2nd paragraphs:
“The Citadel Miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.”
“Warhammer 40,000 uses nine different characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models.”
Pg. 3, BRB, under “Characteristic Profiles”, 1st paragraph:
“Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile the lists the values of its characteristics”

This doesn't prove it.
In any event, modifiers don't bend rules but follow them. We are told a model has stats, we are told the values can be changed and we're shown how to do it. No rules bent or broken.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:C) the BRB tells us that effects from psychic powers are SPECIAL RULES on pg. 32.

And here is the major issue you have. You have been shown repeatedly that that is a lie. As in, you cannot keep on repeating it without knowingly committing a falsehood, because you have been shown the proof of this.
Psychic powers MAY give special rules. MAY. Not "Always". "MIGHT". You cannot cite a rule you have changed.
Perhaps acknowledge your error, or will this be another "vehicles are a member of the unit embarked on them" fallacy again?

Pg. 41, BRB, 1st entry:
“PSYKER
A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66.”
Pg. 66, BRB, 1st entry:
“Psykers are warriors gifted with awesome mental powers that enable them to channel the baleful energy of the Warp. While commonly referred to as psychic powers, such abilities are nothing less than sorcery …”
Pg. 66, BRB, under “Psykers”, 2nd paragraph:
“Each Psyker knows one or more psychic powers, as described in their codex.”
Pg. 22, GK Codex, under “Grey Knight Grand Masters”
“SPECIAL RULES: The Aegis, And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 1).”
“PSYCHIC POWERS: Hammerhand (see page 25), Psychic Communion (see page 23)”

Pg. 23, GK Codex, under “Grey Knight Brother-Captains”
“SPECIAL RULES: The Aegis, And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 1).”
“PSYCHIC POWERS: Hammerhand (see page 25)”
Pg. 24, GK Codex, under “Librarians”
“SPECIAL RULES: The Aegis, And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 2).”
“PSYCHIC POWERS: Hammerhand (see opposite)”

Nothing here proves the effects of Psychic Powers are Special Rules. In fact the rule posed earlier proves they are not, but on occasion can grant them.

While it pains me to post rules on the site, it seems to be the only way to “prove” to some posters on this forum something they can very well read on their own if they weren’t being so obtuse to challenge every single thing their opposition posts.
To restate:
A) All rules in a Codex are special rules, because they change or bend the rules in the BRB, as stated on pg. 32 of the BRB.
B) Stat Lines, the common term for Characteristic Profiles, are indeed rules, as stated on pg. 3 of the BRB.
C) Every rule in the Psyker section of the BRB is a special rule per the special rule entry “Psyker” on pg 41 of the BRB.
D) As such, we can plainly see in many unit entries of the GK Codex where Psyker is listed under Special Rules, and the powers those units have access to are listed under Psychic Powers, not the mention the characteristic profile listed at the beginning of each unit’s rules.
Calling me a liar doesn’t change the fact that the “Stacker” argument is based on 5th Edition FAQ and not on a single entry in the 6th Edition BRB.

As to fallacies, please prove that a unit embarked on a vehicle does not accompany said vehicle … in a different thread from this one.

SJ

A) False. The BRB repeated tells us to look to the Codex. That is a rule. Only Special Rules within the Codex bend core rules. Not everything in the Codex does this.
B) The rule governing Characteristics is. The values are not. They can be modified following standard rules without bending or breaking them.
C) Powers are not in the Psyker section, and it has been prove time and time again that they are not Special Rules.
D) No powers were listed as Special Rules in any of the quotes posted. Psyker is a Special Rule, Powers are not. This has been shown many, many times.

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:B) provides a modifier to a standard stat line, which is a change (modifier) to an existing rule (stat line)

A stat line is not a rule. Prove otherwise

Pg. 2, BRB, under “Models & Units, 1st and 2nd paragraphs:
“The Citadel Miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.”
“Warhammer 40,000 uses nine different characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models.”
Pg. 3, BRB, under “Characteristic Profiles”, 1st paragraph:
“Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile the lists the values of its characteristics”

This doesn't prove it.
In any event, modifiers don't bend rules but follow them. We are told a model has stats, we are told the values can be changed and we're shown how to do it. No rules bent or broken.

Hammerhand does bend the rule.

The rules say multiply first, add second.

Hammerhand says add 1 first, then multiply (if able to) then add again (if there is anything else)

I will only quote one part of your wall of text, because others have dissected it well. Thi sis just the most pertinent but from me.

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pg. 32, BRB, under “What Special Rules Do I Have?”, 2nd thru 4th paragraphs:
“Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain.

The entire post is undermined here, where you managfed to NOT read what you just typed in.

It may PAIN you to quote rules, but it pains us more when you type something which entirely undermines your point, and it is the thing I told you about.

You see the word MIGHT there? I underlined, stuck it in bold because apparently despite me stating this is what it said, you still missed it

This means it MIGHT give you a special rule. This does NOT say it DOES give you a special rule

NOTHING you posted proves anything other than *psyker* is the special rule. Literally nothing. Your entire wall of text, agrieved tone and all simply proved you were wrong.

Enough, reread this single quote from you, realise your error and stop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jegsar - seriously, you are still trying to argue that a plural isnt a plural. Stop.

2 of the same rule means you have RULES. Nothing you state will give otherwise

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


Hammerhand does bend the rule.

The rules say multiply first, add second.

Hammerhand says add 1 first, then multiply (if able to) then add again (if there is anything else)

Hammerhand grants one special rule. That does not mean that it is a special rule.
The special rule of changing the order of operations does not stack.
The STR modifier is not a special rule as page 2 spells out how modifiers work - no rules are bent or broken.