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Hello fellow Craftworlders,

With the new DA codex, I am faced with more Terminators than I can handle (and of course the trouble with Land Raiders). In response, I've rekitted my WWs with Starcannons instead of the usual SLs. I've stuck with my Pathfinders. I added a Fire Prism. I'm still struggling to find a way to deal with them. My biggest problem is CC. I've tried both Jetseer Council and Harlies w/Shadowseer and Yriel. I'm playing 1500 points (next week I get to play a friend's 2000pt tourny list). I'm not running (or interested in running) allies. I've come close once, but I'm curious what others are doing. Mostly tactically, I guess, since I really don't think I'm missing anything on our list.

Thanks in advance.

Well, a Jetseer Council is just an anvil unit vs. TEQ not a hammer squad. Yriel works great vs. MEQ with his eye of wrath, but not really vs. TEQ. Many shots, the more the better, will help, say Warwalkers with scatterlasers. As said, two Fire Prisms could also work great, but their blasts scatter more often than not.

Honestly 10 fire dragons can sort out terminators quite well. TH/SS ones won't care about them, but tactical terminators will evaporate.

Well, Fire Dragons are an option, but they are usually one-hit wonders. As Labmouse said, they'll work vs tactical Termies but not vs assault Termies w/ th+ss.

The combo of Yriel, Eldrad and a squad of Warlocks can hold their own vs Termies of any kind. Its not only an anvil, but also a hammer unit.

That's what happened last game. 5 FDs nuked one squad, tried to get the Land Raider; then got charged and annihilated by DW Knights. The WWs with Starcannons did really well actually, but couldn't scratch the LR. The Harlies (5 harlies, 2 fusion harlies, shadowseer - all with kisses, and Yriel) did ok as well, but couldn't last.

I'm just trying to figure a counter. If Yriel, Eldrad, and a squad of Harlies, Warlocks, (or even Banshees or Scorps) are my only hammer, I don't have much of a hammer.

Open the land raiders with fire dragons, and then shoot the occupants with scatter laser death. Torrent is the only option vs TH/SS terminators and the Eldar have some of the best torrent.

Martel732 wrote:
Open the land raiders with fire dragons, and then shoot the occupants with scatter laser death. Torrent is the only option vs TH/SS terminators and the Eldar have some of the best torrent.

I deal with TH/SS with splinter cannons. Same theory. Works great

I've only played against the new DA once with my Eldar and it was still pretty similar to dealing with Terminators; weight of fire. My opponent dropped 3 units and Belial on me early. The big key for me was Eldrad to utilize Guide and Doom. He had taken out my War Walker squadron (rightly so), but really didn't appreciate how much shooting/counterassault I had. 20 Guardians (with Scatterlaser) with Guide against a Doomed DW squad completely debilitated it. The other squad was nearly knocked out to 10 Eldar Jetbikes (3 cannons rest was t/l catpapults) and the final squad got with with DA with Bladestorm. What was left was an easy assault with my 8 Harlies with Kisses.

In my opinion he risked nearly 1000 points of his army (out of 1850) to try and kill off 180 points of mine (War Walkers) which put his DW unsupported and made it easy for me to take out with small arms fire.

As far as Land Raiders go, you really should try to hit it with the Fire Dragons. Cast Fortune on their WS and get into position; following turn, dump them out within 6". An Exarch with Tank Hunter may be worth the points in your case.

@Sarigar: Wow, that's interesting. It is a ton of fire, but it's all high AP (so all 2+ saves) I'm never that lucky. Same with the Harlies: that 6 to wound, while rending, is really brutal to pull off. I suppose that at least is the advantage of Warlocks: 2+ to wound, but 2+ to save vs. Harlies: 6 to wound, but 5+ to save.

I'm going to try a guardian squad w/ Conceal-lock and Bright Lance to open up the LR (in case my FDs are busy/dead).

Here is the thing about fire dragons. They are amazing tools for the points.
Normally a melta gun costs a model 10 points, and melta bombs cost 5.
For 16 points you get that, and a better statline than vet guard in carapace armor.

They are an amazingly undercosted unit. I can't see why any Eldar today would not bring 15-30 to every game.

I agree with you about cost labmouse. I'm just reluctant to go FD-wild with their range only being 12". It's an interesting thought though. Hmmm....

I agree whole heartedly with Lab Mouse. Fire Dragons are the way to go in my book. 10 with an exarch and a SL Serpent is 297. A hefty investment, but it can literally deal with anything in the game. And yes, TH/SS Termies do care about Fire Dragons.

I also have been loving Wraithguard of late and run them with a Doom/Fortune Seer or just good ol' Eldrad.

I think just one squad of Dragons would be nice to have as they can easily wipe out a five 5 man DW squad.

since your opposed to Allies, what if you tried something liek this:

Seer, fortune, Doom, Runes, Stones

x10 Firedragons, Exarch w/ flamer, Serpent w/ TL-SL and Cannon- 297

x10 Wraithguard, Conceal
x10 Guardians, SL
x10 Guardians, SL

x3 Walkers, x2 SLs each
x3 Walkers, x2 SLs each
Nightspinner

I think that covers the bases pretty nicely.

You could go with 6 Dragons in a couple Falcons as well to get more AP 2 and some more long range AT with some more hulls.

I actually generated this 2000pt list that pretty much fell together (the game next week vs. the DA tourny list is 2000pts):

Eldrad
Yriel

2x 5 FD w/Exarch (Pike, Crack Shot) & WS w/Shuri-Cannon/Catapults
1x 4 Harlies w/Kisses, 2 Harlies w/Kisses & Fusion, 1x Shadowseer

2x 3 GJB, 1 Shuri-GJB
1x 10 Guardians w/Conceal-lock & Starcannon
1x 5 Pathfinders

1x 5 Warp Spiders w/Exarch (Dual-Spinners)

2x 3 WW w/2 SL

(I don't have Wraithguard models)

Generally your best option is volume of fire (warwalkers with scatter lasers) and/or taking pot shots with starcannons and lances.

Wraithguard however, are eldar on easy mode, try them.

Ugh. I thought I was done spending $ for a while.

I managed to buy 10 of them, two Vibro canons and a few stray oneblister aspect warriors (6 I think, 4 Warp Spiders and 2 Scorpions) for 23Euro. I was lucky though, a friend of mine had won a bits box with all theese models and he didn't really know the value

Few ideas (some of which already listed):

Shooting
- Fusion Pistols - love getting the instakill by doubling out the T4 termie
- Spam S6 shots - make em role dice
- StarCannons - more efficient than BL's, and cheaper
- D-cannons - cheap on the heavy weapons support platform; if you have warp hunters than problem solved!

(Add misfortune) - if you're lucky enough to roll misfortune, this is your game changer?

Close Combat
- Wraithlords - AP2 hits (outfit with Wraithsword)
- Fuegen - hits AP2 at initiative and can smash to double tap multiwound models.
- High volume of attacks + precience/misfortune - Harlequins and Striking Scorpions get 4 hits on the charge. Add prescience and misfortune your re-rolling hits and opponent is re-rolling saves!
- Wraithcannons + hit and run - my current favorite. Add Baron (DE) to this unit and your Wraithguard unit never gets tarpitted and unloads AP2 goodness?

Teqs are not much of a problem for Eldar, imo. It's when Eldar start taking non-trivial return fire that problems start. Many of the good imperial heavy weapons outrange the Eldar by 12". Multiply this across an IG list....... and yeah......... teqs are the least of the Eldar's concerns.

Avatar is a good option against termis as well. He negates those with the combi-meltas, can take a lot of fire power. He has ignores their impressive armor and gets a number of attacks. I would use him over yriel myself.

Recently ran star cannon walkers myself and they were great as well. While they seem prohibitively expensive, they are taking out more expensive targets then the scatter walkers tend to. Well worth it in my opinion. If forgeworld is cool in your local area, hornets with pulse lasers is a good option. That str 8 kicks out feel no pain and multi wound terminators pretty quick.

Snipers are still great and eldar have the best with double the chances to ignore that expensive armor.

Because of all the 36" ranged stuff above I just mentioned. I've started running my wave serpents with bright lances as well. Fits in nicely and gives you a good chance of taking out those land raiders. While they are expensive, they end up soaking fire. Hide your fire dragons inside and wait for them to get close enough that they are a threat.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Here is the thing about fire dragons. They are amazing tools for the points.
Normally a melta gun costs a model 10 points, and melta bombs cost 5.
For 16 points you get that, and a better statline than vet guard in carapace armor.

They are an amazingly undercosted unit. I can't see why any Eldar today would not bring 15-30 to every game.

The major problem is one of delivery, you can't walk Dragons at people because T3 4+ save just gets torrented off the board and vehicles will have the mobility to avoid you for half the game if they want to. That means you have to put them in a Serpent, and Serpents are now seriously sub par units which no longer guarantee delivery to the extent they did in 5th. I would probably call the Serpent a good 40pts overpriced, which effectively counteracts the underpriced Dragons.

More importantly though, Meltaguns - particularly suicide melta units are nowhere near as vital in 6th as they were in 5th, particularly for a torrent of fire army like Eldar. Since you can now reliably glance vehicles to death with S6 shooting Dragons don't have to be thrown away to remove Rhinos or other light vehicles. That leaves you with the occasional Land Raider being the only time you need them. You can bring larger units with the intent of using them to burn away TEQ, but the problem is then they become a massive target. With mech Eldar falling off the radar more infantry heavy builds are naturally filling the gap, and when you are running the Avatar and 3 Wraithlords you really don't need Dragons.

To answer the OPs question, Eldar deal with TEQ the same way they deal with basically everything - torrent of fire. Doom them and just keep dumping wounds on them until they drop. A Guided squad of Scatter Laser Walkers will comfortably drop 2 per turn without Doom, your other S6 weapons can chip away and even S4 shooting from really basic stuff like Guardians will drop 1-2.

Hello there,

I am a marine player and one of my friends plays Eldar.

What I find works for him is volume of fire. He uses Eldrad for guide on the unit/units he is going to be pumping shots out with and doom on the termi's.

Another thing that has worked is fortune + Avatar. Just the Avatar was able to tank 10 termi's 4 TH/SS and beliel for 4 or 5 turns...

Well you could try howling banshees.
...
Too soon?

OT: You already have starcannon WW, but you need to couple them with farseer buffs and debuffs. Of course, that only wipes one unit at a time, and you need to fight spam. Solution? Anouher farseer. 9 star cannon WW, two squads can paste a unit of termies with farseer support, and the third can weaken one so it's easier for your hammer (such as it is) to swallow.

My brother plays eldar, and while i don't bring many 2+ saves, this apparently works for him. Math favors it too. 3 walkers puts out 12 shots, and guided, that's 10 hits, and if the target is doomed, that's ten wounds, and vs. doomed stormshields, 5.555 of those are unsaved. Pastes one unit per volley. Without farseer support, they get 6 hits, 5 wounds, and almost two unsaved wounds. After that, three termies shouldn't be too big of a pill for the harlies to swallow.

EDIT: They aren't too shabby at glancing down light vehicles either. Four shots per walker at strength 6 isn't bad.

Might want to try your Mathhammer again there:
3 Walkers with 2 Starcannons each with Guide and Doom (Doom doesn't change things much since its already 2+ to wound) against TH/SS Terminators:
12 shots, 9 hits, 8.75 wounds, 2.9 failed saves.

without any buffs:
12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1.66 failed saves.

Anyway, I get tired of point out and proving this on Dakka over and over again, but Scatter Lasers are much much better choices than Starcannons. Against vehicles there is no competition, twice the shots at the same strength is literally twice as good. People try and argue that the Starcannon is better against TEQ, but it really isn't. If you repeat the test from above:
3 Walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers each with Guide and Doom against TH/SS Terminators:
24 shots, 18 hits, 17.5 wounds, 2.9 failed saves

without any buffs:
24 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 1.6 failed saves

Oh look, that's the EXACT same number of wounds as Starcannons average, against the toughest infantry in the game which the Starcannons are designed (and priced) to deal with. If these two weapons were priced the same you might have a discussion about it, but the Scatter Laser is always 10pts cheaper so you are just paying more for an inferior weapon (since it is worse against light infantry and vehicles). Its also important to remember that the additional shots of the Scatter Laser give it a slight edge anyway, since its theoretical maximum damage output is higher - 4 shots can hit and wound 4 times which would mean you can theoretically kill 4 or even 3 Terminators, more than the 2 max that a Starcannon can. Obviously you don't rely on this, but in a game where chance plays a part it is an advantage.

In general, scatterlaser >> starcannon.

I agree torrent will be your best bet, I would go with 9 war walkers with dual scatters and 9 vypers with dual SC's and then a farseer with a squad of pathfinders behind an ADL and a couple of small GJB squads in reserve for capturing objectives, I think that all comes out to be about 1500 points give or take.

between the walkers and vypers you'll be dishing out about 53 wounds which will kill approximately 9 termies a turn, plus you might get a couple more from the pathfinders.

Powerguy wrote:
Might want to try your Mathhammer again there:
3 Walkers with 2 Starcannons each with Guide and Doom (Doom doesn't change things much since its already 2+ to wound) against TH/SS Terminators:
12 shots, 9 hits, 8.75 wounds, 2.9 failed saves.

without any buffs:
12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1.66 failed saves.

Anyway, I get tired of point out and proving this on Dakka over and over again, but Scatter Lasers are much much better choices than Starcannons. Against vehicles there is no competition, twice the shots at the same strength is literally twice as good. People try and argue that the Starcannon is better against TEQ, but it really isn't. If you repeat the test from above:
3 Walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers each with Guide and Doom against TH/SS Terminators:
24 shots, 18 hits, 17.5 wounds, 2.9 failed saves

without any buffs:
24 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 1.6 failed saves

Oh look, that's the EXACT same number of wounds as Starcannons average, against the toughest infantry in the game which the Starcannons are designed (and priced) to deal with. If these two weapons were priced the same you might have a discussion about it, but the Scatter Laser is always 10pts cheaper so you are just paying more for an inferior weapon (since it is worse against light infantry and vehicles). Its also important to remember that the additional shots of the Scatter Laser give it a slight edge anyway, since its theoretical maximum damage output is higher - 4 shots can hit and wound 4 times which would mean you can theoretically kill 4 or even 3 Terminators, more than the 2 max that a Starcannon can. Obviously you don't rely on this, but in a game where chance plays a part it is an advantage.

My, mistake. I don't play eldar, and i thought doom allowed for forced re-rolls on successful armor saves as well.