Red Box Games - Goblin Horde Kickstarter ($2.5k to Berserkers - Wolf Rider WIPS Page 7)

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**Bolognesus**

if it's just the bellies and not the rest of the horses that look like that WTF is that even a problem? Can't be sure from just those pics but it seems the rest is nice and crisp - I'd still be kicking myself for not getting into this KS for a fethton of horses if that's the final product...

**plastictrees**

I wouldn't be super happy, but at this point I just want my models.
If Ed didn't think his material could handle casting the horse as a single piece he shouldn't have taken the job with those parameters. I wouldn't take a job that I knew could reflect poorly on me just because the client wanted to save money.

**kenshin620**

Well on the bright side....

Instant nurgle horses!

**Cyporiean**

kenshin620 wrote:
Well on the bright side....

Instant nurgle horses!

Isn't that on the Blight side

In all seriousness, they look 'okay', not great, but okay. I'd agree with the previous suggestion of just weeding out any horrible ones, and sending stuff for the sake of sending stuff... and in the future do mounts as multipart models.

**Triple9**

I'm of the mind that these aren't a difficult fix and may not even require a fix when based. Wish Tre would have shown a profile shot to give an idea if the issue is even noticeable under normal conditions. In for one of each sculpt so I'd prefer them shipped at this point.

**finnan**

I think they look pretty horrible. I understand that backers might be frustrated and simply want their models in their hands, but that level of quality is not acceptable. I wouldn't want to have to go in and greenstuff those bellies, and if you're paying for a product that (I'm assuming here) was advertised as being reasonably anatomically correct, customers should not accept that quality either. They need to be redone.
If you saw those models in a GW blister with 'Finecast' on it, everyone would be wailing, moaning and knashing their teeth at how poor it is. What's the difference?

**RiTides**

One word: Kickstarter

Seriously, people pledged for these based on artwork alone. Air bubbles in bellies aren't fantastic, but it was a new material/process and a calculated risk.

If they are to be re-done, someone must pay for it and I don't see that happening. If I were waiting for horses, I'd want these now, rather than others who knows when.

I'd love to see a pic of them upright- I bet the rest looks fantastic.

**greywulf**

RiTides wrote:
I'd love to see a pic of them upright- I bet the rest looks fantastic.

I second that!

**plastictrees**

RiTides wrote:
One word: Kickstarter

Seriously, people pledged for these based on artwork alone. Air bubbles in bellies aren't fantastic, but it was a new material/process and a calculated risk.

If they are to be re-done, someone must pay for it and I don't see that happening. If I were waiting for horses, I'd want these now, rather than others who knows when.

I'd love to see a pic of them upright- I bet the rest looks fantastic.

This is the sort of quality that Ed feels is acceptable to deliver to his customers, approved at one point or not, I'm glad that I resold my Assimilation Alien Host pledge and that Imbrian Arts is switching to metal.

**RiTides**

Well, here's a pic of the horses from a normal angle:

For the price, I think people are really sounding off about this more than is reasonable. I feel the opposite way- the more I see of this material, the more excited I am about Ed doing his own stuff. I pledged big for the alien assimilation host, and assuming he doesn't try to cast something with four legs as a single cast, I think things will turn out great. Just like every part of that horse did, except for the bottom.

You can blame Ed for not being adamant about breaking the horse up into pieces before casting it, but it sounds like he did want to (and probably should have insisted). I really doubt he'll make this same mistake with his own stuff- or anyone's stuff, for that matter... he's clearly revising the terms of doing business after this unfortunate circumstance

Anyway, here's a post from the comments, due to the difference between kickstarter handles and forum names I don't know if it's the same person who posted the above (the above is from our own weeble1000, I believe).

Jason, it looks bad in those photos, but honestly now that I am looking at the horse I received, the underside is pretty consistent with that. This is the same horse I photographed and posted pics of on the RBG forums. As you know Jason, I am pretty anal about mold lines. When I pulled the horse out of the bag these barely registered with me, because from most angles where you view the horse you honestly can't see them.
Now having seen them, I want to remove them, but it is actually very fast work with a hobby knife, much to my surprise. The one bit that is upsetting is that one of the low hanging skulls had a bubble that took out the bottom part of the jaw. Again, not something that jumped out at me, nor something that anyone appeared to notice in the photos I took.
All in all, I would not be upset by this horse mini unless I was looking for something to be mad about. The rest of the cast came out so darn well, spikes, skulls, chains, musculature, fur. Obviously, I love Tre's work and am a bit biased, but I honestly did jot think that my horse cast had any problems.

So, imo this is a bit of a mountain out of a molehill, and is indicative of the frayed relationship between the two companies at this point. Best for everybody to resolve this as quickly as possible and move on. I for one intend to continue to heartily support both companies... searching for some RBG bonebacks right now, and very chuffed about the alien host that Ed is making. It also doesn't look like he'll be lacking for outside work with how happy Impact has been with his casts.

Part ways, and lesson learned! Looking forward to future RBG releases in metal, and trollforged ones in plastic but with more stringent casting advice from Ed (i.e. no more horses as single pieces

). But personally the horse above looks absolutely fine to me- if it's got air bubbles under it's belly, I REALLY wouldn't care if I'd been waiting as long as the RBG kickstarter backers have.

**kenshin620**

Ok seriously, after you base these guys who is going to look at the belly

Because those side pics look ace!

**Bolognesus**

Oookay, if anyone with a bunch of horses in his pledge feels as Finnan does, let me know. We can probably work something out

really, those things are pretty damn great.

**RiTides**

Bolognesus wrote:
Oookay, if anyone with a bunch of horses in his pledge feels as Finnan does, let me know. We can probably work something out really, those things are pretty damn great.

Oh, that's a pretty good idea

. I'd probably be up for some, too (although I don't play WoC, otherwise it'd be a no-brainer). Especially as it looks like these may not be available ever again, or if they are, not for a long time!

**Bolognesus**

Yup, I figure it'd make everyone involved happy

**RiTides**

Pic from facebook of how the area between the horse's legs was filled in. This was obviously not a normal mold due to trying to cast a model with 4 legs as one piece. Probably has a lot to do with why the bellies have some issues. The below is just speculation but I think it's probably about right:

czakk wrote:The pictures of the horse molds were very cool, with a sort of insert thing to fill the void between the legs. It would seem possible (to me) for some casts to have the insert perfectly lined up, and others to have it just slightly off leading to some casts turning out just fine, and others not so much.

As czakk said in the KS comments, that's a pretty neat setup

. Should probably just be saved for last resort things in the future, though. Still cool that it made something that would be otherwise impossible to mold become moldable, I think!

**Bossk_Hogg**

as someone in for one of each model, I think they look fine from the profile. It was a poor choice to cast them single piece. But even then they look OK.

**tre manor**

Figured it might be worthwhile to post thsi here as well;

I had honestly hoped to avoid this if possible but that does not seem to be the case.

I want to absolutely clear that I never wanted this to come to this point but I feel I must defend myself now as I have been accused of throwing people under the bus, not paying my bill, sitting on product for no good reason, lying about quantities received, complicating the production process etc. What follows is the best explanation I can organize as to my perspective on why the delays have occurred.

PRODUCTION........

I guess I should begin by clarifying my mode of operation with production partners. I have built a reputation in the industry for being very particular about the quality of production of my figures. Ask any firm I have worked with and they will tell you that. I am sure also that they will one and all affirm that I defer to their expertise in every matter of molding and casting. If a figure needs to be cut to make it work then that is what I do or allow them to do. I have told Ed himself many many times, the production is his job and area of expertise not mine. If there is an issue concerning any part that requires it to be cut, or changed in any way then that is what I do. In fact that is exactly what I have done for the Yrsa, Fenris, Conradt Warp, Ulbrecht, Belegast, and the Horses ( the first molds had the tails as a part of the model ). I have done this at my own expense as well paying for figures to be remolded or even remastered where necessary to make the production process flow as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

If necessary I have the bill to prove that I am being charged for it. to my knowldege Ed has not eaten the expense of any molding through out this process except for shrink molds made at the beginning of the process.

Family Molds........

There are only 6 family molds in this project as per Ed's invoice to me for production costs. Those molds include the Torsos for the hordesmen ( 2 torsos per mold ) the hordesmen legs ( 2 sets of legs per mold ) and the Aenglish Watchmen ( 2 bodies per mold ). These parts are perfectly reasonable to mold in family moulds in my opinion due to the size of the parts and the total lack of complexity. Other than that I have paid for individual molds on every other part to make this project flow as efficiently as possible.

Family molds do complicate the sorting of figures but in all honesty I can handle the sorting of those parts without disturbing the flow of the production process at all. But again I ask if family molds are OK in every instance and I never assume that my production partner will take unnecessary risks for the sake of saving the cost of a mold. In fact I tell them not to any time the subject of family molding arises. I might be too picky or too optimistic or even naively hopeful but I am not dishonest or negligent.

In the case of the horses, it is entirely likely that I may have noticed some minor degree of molding issues ( easily removable mold lines or very minor bubbling ) but I assure you that the first batch was not miscast to the extent that the second batch was. I did not simply pass things through hoping for the best. I appreciate the extra effort that Brian has gone to to help me to get this project wrapped up ( Honestly I do Brian, I do not besmirch your work ethic. ) but quality issues are what they are and must be addressed. Molds slip and deteriorate. I am not a chemist or a mold maker so I cannot say why it happens but it does. Any mold maker / caster will tell you that. I am going to assume that the second batch was prone to the mold plug slipping or not fitting exactly back in to place every time and thus we have seen the result.

My expectations of quality are not unreasonable. I have had enough experience in this business to know what is and is not possible / plausible. The Horses and wolves are a bit of an exception to that as I have never made four legged sculpts before of that nature so I did not know what to expect. But as I told Ed from the word go on this project we will do whatever we need to to make this work smoothly. When the horses came up he informed me that it might be tough but that he could do it. My response to him was that I preferred the horses in one piece but if they could not be done so then we would figure it out. He said he would work on it and see what he could come up with. The result was the mold plug technique.

Those same expectations may create delays in screening for miscasts and correcting production issues but I have been doing this long enough with enough different firms that I generally know what to expect from the process of mold making.

FULFILLMENT.............

I understand that everyone is just sick to death of waiting and wants their rewards shipped. Believe me when I say that if I could make this any faster I would. I would have done so long ago. The fulfillment awaits the production plain and simple. I cannot ship what I do not have. In the beginning of the process I ordered and paid for 500 of every part in the kickstarter except for the horses and the wolves. I have yet to receive that many of any part with the sole exception of Svetlana ( which I have received 680 copies of to date ) Blutulf ( which I have had to reject a total of 670 castings to date ). And those parts that have come in have straggled in in un-even numbers. Using the Undead as an easy example I have received to date;

( please note that these numbers are the total received not the number after QC. The Undead seem to have come through the production process better than almost everything else in terms of QC. )

Undead a 361

undead b 565

undead c 508

undead d 538

undead e 466

undead f 378

undead g 430

undead h 424

undead i 352

This means I have only had the product ( for the undead at least ) to ship 352 packs of zombies thus far. This also applies to every other " pack item " which includes the hordesmen, the Varp, the Riders, the Gynnade Krigare, the Gynnade War Staff, the Aenglish Watchmen etc. Further the Undead are the item I have received in the highest quantity thus far. Currently orders are awaiting the delivery of the Gynnade Krigare right handed weapons and shields which I put in an order for by phone on ( I think ) either the 4th of March or the 28th of February. It is ( was ) on Ed's voice mail so he can confirm the date. Until I receive the ordered right hand weapons and shields I cannot fulfill any orders with the Gynnade Krigare, or War Staff as they all use the right handed bits sprue.

I delivered the last sculpt- the standard for the standard bearer in November. By January 21st the only figures I had not approved were; Guarthagust, Ulbrecht, Yrsa, Fenris, Conradt Warp, the horsemen, and the horses. I received the first horse models on MARCH 4th, I received the 3rd and 4th horse models on March 5th and the 2nd horse on March 15th. I have not had them since December as has been said previously.

Another hitch in the fulfillment is the doubled cost of international postage and the increased rate of US postage ( not quite doubled but more expensive than it was before the January price increase. ) this means that packages are now just too expensive to ship twice so they must be complete and correct.I have no choice in the matter. The length of time that this has taken to resolve has meant that I have had to support my family off of the money for a longer period of time than was originally planned. I still have the money to complete the fulfillment and pay Ed but I need to get this done sooner rather than later to avoid discomfort or debt.
So to address the issue of me sitting on product for no good reason. This is totally false. I hope that my explanation above has answered any questions anyone might have on the matter but please feel free to ask me to clarify anything that may still seem unclear.

PAYMENT....................

This is a matter of honour for me. I have never balked at paying for anything that I have received that was acceptable or had flaws due to my own oversight. I do not feel I should have to pay for items which are flawed due to mistakes in production. The first thing I did when I got the money in the account was to pay Ed for the expected cost of delivering the initial order. That was $13,000.00. I knew that that was not the last I would have to pay as the initial order would only cover about half of the production necessary to final fulfillment and every time Ed has informed me of any change in cost totals I have told him whatever it is I will pay it.

As far as TF not having the information necessary to fulfill beyond this point; the first order has yet to be delivered upon completely so any quantities beyond that are only relevant after the initial order is filled. Any information ever needed for fulfillment was only a phone call away.

As for the bill as it stands right now; I received Ed's invoice for the original order made in August on March 3rd 2013 indicating by their count of items produced that I was $1447.00 over the original amount paid. We are going through the numbers of every item delivered and currently held and every item rejected to make sure that all quantities are accounted for before paying what might be owed. Once this is resolved Ed will be paid any amount currently owed for work delivered. We expect to have that process completed today. I will then also calculate the amount owed for the remainder of the project and pay half of that as well and pay the final amount upon approved delivery of all ordered product. I cannot think of anything more reasonable than that.

PERSONAL ISSUES...........

Ed and I have been friends for years. I have considered Ed a very good friend and I have always tried to be a good friend to him in turn. Only he can judge whether or not I have been. It has never been my intention to harm Ed's reputation or the reputation of his product or service. Any comments that I have made that may be construed to the contrary are attributable only to what I see as a totally unnecessary and avoidable extent of delay in the delivery of this project. I know that Ed did not intend for this ti develop the way it has and that he wants it to be finished as positively as possible. neither one of us wanted this to descend into a contest of who is right and who is wrong but there is obviously confusion that needs clearing.

I was late with the delivery of a few sculpts ( I delivered the last sculpt- the standard for the standard bearer in November. ) but that does not preclude the other items that were delivered from being fulfilled to the full extent as originally ordered. There have been issues with items needing to be remolded or sculpturally adjusted for easier production but those issues notwithstanding I see no reason why the remaining items could not be delivered upon in full.

I will not speculate as to what the causes for these delays are but RBG has suffered for them as have you the backers. I know that TF have other obligations which must be met and I do not blame them for trying to meet those obligations or their customers for expecting them to, but RBG was the first in line and the first to pay. RBG has not been the first to deliver and the delay has caused direct damage to my reputation, my finances, and my ability to recover from both.

CONCLUSION..............i hope.........

I always deliver on my promises and I will continue to do so come hell to high water. I can longer issue refunds. I am very sorry but the money just does not exist. The only thing I can afford to do now is to deliver the advertised product to you and I will do so. I highly value your support as customers and friends. Your confidence and enthusiasm is what keeps me going through the darkness remember? It breaks my heart to see what was once so promising has now become. I assure you that I have profited nothing from this. It may be hard to believe but it is the truth. By the time all the expenses are deducted and the costs of living in the length of time between pay and delivery are calculated and deducted I have lost money on this project. But please understand my commitment is not beholden to you only in the bloom of spring. Even when the wind is bitter cold and the night grows long and dark and hungry wolves come to bite and rend I will strike stones for fire, take up Spear and Sax and fight with abandon until the wolves are driven away howling and yelping.

Thank you all for your extended patience and understanding with all of us involved.

Cheers Y'all,

Tre'

**Mahrdol**

Honestly I don't see any need for you to explain yourself Tre. Trollforge is a Micky Mouse operation working out of a guys small basement. You took a chance with them and it did not work out. It happens. When Trollforge finally becomes a real company maybe they can provide the support their clients need.

**RiTides**

Edit: Sorry about the tone of this post

AT

RiTides, are you affiliated with TrollForged at all?

**tre manor**

I posted this because I have been taking a LOT of heat over the delays when I have nothing to do with it at all. I am shipping every item as I am able to do so. I cannot ship what is not in hand.

I did not mention the horses quality issue in the update because that was a separate matter for the previous update. Any orders waiting right now are waiting for the delivery of the right handed weapons, and shields. There will of course be other items that will need more restocking before this KS is closed but right now the pressing issue is the right handed weapons and the shields for the gynnade krigare whcih have been on order for quite a while now.

I have made orders I have shipped everything that I have on hand to ship. Any orders that are waiting now are orders that are incomplete due to not having all the parts delivered from Trollsforge. Manpower is not the issue, time is not the issue, personal initiative is not the issue, communication is not the issue.

Supply is the issue and I have no control over supply what so ever.

As I said at the very beginning of the update I do not want to make this any uglier than it already is but clarifications MUST be made. These misunderstandings are prompting people to call for refunds or to think that I am for some reason just sitting on their rewards for no good reason. I am not, I am doing everything I can to make this work as efficiently as possible.

**plastictrees**

*quote redacted by request*

Tre is managing his reputation and livelihood, I think any of us can understand his position, particularly if you've been self-employed.

**RiTides**

I apologize for the tone of my post above (edited out now). However, I thought the post on KS was too vague because it makes it seem like lots of things are needed for fulfillment, and it is only a set of arms and shields.

I'll bow out of this conversation now, again sorry for the tone above. All the best to both Tre and Ed, I love them both which is why this has been so frustrating

**kenshin620**

Mahrdol wrote:
Honestly I don't see any need for you to explain yourself Tre. Trollforge is a Micky Mouse operation working out of a guys small basement. You took a chance with them and it did not work out. It happens. When Trollforge finally becomes a real company maybe they can provide the support their clients need.

I honestly agree. I said over on another topic how imo TF thinks their trollcast is a miracle solution, but he overestimated his reach

Now I'm not pointing any fingers here though. I admit, I havent backed any trollforge/trollcast KS so I dont think anyone is a villain here, just that everyone probably got a little over excited. Hopefully after 2-3 years time this will all be water under the bridge (unless your company is called defiance

)

**RiTides**

Personally I disagree- I think that post by Mahrdol is quite out of line (it's what prompted my post). Impact is thrilled with Trollforged's work. But that doesn't get the press... it's the underside of horses that do

In the end, as I've said numerous times, I love both companies and want them to succeed. I just wish I could enter a thread about RBG models and not see Trollforged getting thrown under the bus (not necessarily by Tre) for air pockets on a four-legged model cast as a single piece!

**Mahrdol**

RiTides wrote:
Personally I disagree- I think that post by Mahrdol is quite out of line (it's what prompted my post). Impact is thrilled with Trollforged's work. But that doesn't get the press... it's the underside of horses that do

In the end, as I've said numerous times, I love both companies and want them to succeed. I just wish I could enter a thread about RBG models and not see Trollforged getting thrown under the bus (not necessarily by Tre) for air pockets on a four-legged model cast as a single piece!

Maybe impact is all TF can handle. Don't forget TF fell through with IA KS too. I have 2 KS screwed up from TF already. The fact remains 2 guys working out of a small basement is no way to run a business.

**RiTides**

IA backed out based on this one, it caused delays in others. Please don't spread rumors... I am a pledger for IA, too!

But I definitely agree that less load on TF's near-term queue is a good thing. They are moving shop this month and will have more capacity after that.

**Mahrdol**

RiTides wrote:
IA backed out based on this one, it caused delays in others. Please don't spread rumors... I am a pledger for IA, too!

But I definitely agree that less load on TF's near-term queue is a good thing. They are moving shop this month and will have more capacity after that.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1463917927/imbrian-arts-miniatures/posts

Spoiler:

Edited to cool things down.

**NAVARRO**

I only blame KS's to be honest... they are crushing small companies with this crazy quick increase of volumes... If in theory its a miracle to have so many preorders any small business owner knows that if your company is not prepared for it you will lose money and many other things. Timings planned for a sustained growth are more important than brilliant one shot preorders IMO.

Both companies are small and both do not seem to have experienced before such big increase in production... I hope both learned and be better prepared for these production hiccups in the future.

Sorry to see Tre being targeted to the point that he needs to defend himself for the sake of is professional integrity... sorry to see TF also targeted... It is not something I like to see but it happens quite often in business environments.

Good luck to both.

**RiTides**

NAVARRO wrote:
Sorry to see Tre being targeted to the point that he needs to defend himself for the sake of is professional integrity... sorry to see TF also targeted... It is not something I like to see but it happens quite often in business environments.

Good luck to both.

I am really encouraged to see this sentiment is shared by the vast majority of the commentors on Tre's most recent update (which he pasted above) supporting both companies. That is really great to see! I guess I just took it the wrong way when I first read it and didn't realize that most people would respond in a way supporting both companies involved.

I'm so relieved that that is the case! Both of them are fantastic and I'd hate to see any long-term rift over this. Hopefully, Tre is able to bring his casting in-house in metal for the future, and TF can finish this and concentrate on other projects, including their own alien host.