Red Box Games - Goblin Horde Kickstarter ($2.5k to Berserkers - Wolf Rider WIPS Page 7)

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**Bossk_Hogg**

Maybe Tre could offer some swaps for the special ranks? 1 regular rank +x solos? That way you could pledge without worry if the special ranks fund or not, you at least get something for that portion of your backer reward.

**judgedoug**

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Maybe Tre could offer some swaps for the special ranks? 1 regular rank +x solos? That way you could pledge without worry if the special ranks fund or not, you at least get something for that portion of your backer reward.

a 35 special rank is the same price as a 25 lesser rank + two 5 solo's. so if no specials get funded i would assume Tre would allow that.

**RiTides**

Da Boss wrote:
Aye, at present I have pledged for the top level +110 not counting shipping. But as it stands, I'm likely to be looking at having 9 of the same Bonebacks for quite a chunk of that pledge if I don't reduce my special rank commitment, and perhaps even nothing stated for it.

I'm a supporter and a fan, but we need something now as a special rank option, something to give confidence and get things moving. I'd say we've needed it for about 5 days now. I obviously know nothing about the logisitcs of it, but it would seem to me that offering some stuff that has already been dispatched from KS1 (Like the very popular zombies, or Helsvakt) as a special rank would go a long way towards getting some positive momentum going.

I'm sure Tre has thought of all that at this stage and probably has his reasons for not going down that route, but I'd be really curious as to what they are. We seem stuck between a rock and a hard place right now.

It's a decent thought. Would people be open to the dire wolves counting as a special rank?

Gutsy, my confidence is just that we'll get the bonebacks, which would make this a "success", I think!

Addressing the special rank question would be really good to stop the early backer bleeding and set us up for the last day push, Tre. I am confident because I want bonebacks as specials, and am just buying the dire wolves for my wolf riders. But giving folks a bone on special ranks (either a swap, 1 lesser rank plus 1-2 solos, or another option like dire wolves or a KS1 item) seems like a Reaaaalllyyyy good idea.

I really don't get the angst, it's a goblin KS! I want goblins

. But even just dire wolves as special, or lesser as special, or a KS1 item as special, would help. Time for a bold stroke to send a clear message and stop the bleeding Tre

**Da Boss**

Another update there today, lads. Asking about the campaign again since it's stalled. Get on there and weigh in, for good or ill!

**RiTides**

tre manor wrote:Definitely relaunching. I will post a more thorough update and explanation later tonight once I have finalized the changes.

I think "relaunch" means "cancel" since obviously Kickstarter has an approval process and this campaign took about a week to approve, I believe.

At this point it'd probably be best to wait till KS1 items are all shipped. 750 backers on that (I think) vs 155 on this (although it probably would've cleared 200 on the final day) is the reason this was lower, not the quality of the goblin sculpts.

What a huge bummer... I don't know if I can wait longer than September for goblins (which is what the delivery date for this campaign was) so if the new campaign will be later than that...

I was so psyched about these models

I even went and bought 20 of the metals while I could still find them. Guess I should have bought more...

**Mr Gutsy**

I think Tre made the right choice cancelling the campaign, at this point it was just so uncertain whether or not the campaign would experience a large surge in daily pledgers or a substantial drop from the existing backers lowering their pledges. I respect Tre for deciding not to take the risk of continuing this campaign when it could have potentially backfired on him.

RiTides wrote:

What a huge bummer... I don't know if I can wait longer than September for goblins (which is what the delivery date for this campaign was) so if the new campaign will be later than that...

I was so psyched about these models I even went and bought 20 of the metals while I could still find them. Guess I should have bought more...

Im hoping that Tre might be able keep the current planned goblins casting on schedule. i know Ed doesn't work for free, but if Tre could somehow have the Goblins pre-moulded by the time this Kickstarter is relaunched it would not only cut down dramatically on production time but also give us some finished casts to froth over.

Tre should also consider using the Kickstarter draft feature next time (like the Mongoose Rogue Trooper KS did. ) so we his fans can give the campaign a thorough read over before it goes live.

**RiTides**

Unfortunately, Ed won't be doing any pre-molding for a job this far down in his queue I don't think... he has his own kickstarter to fulfill still, which got pushed back as he finished Tre's first kickstarter casting.

He is also doing Impact's chibi miniatures kickstarter, the imbrian arts kickstarter, and I believe a cthulhu one. So he's got a Lot on his plate, although he is ramping up his production (I think he already hired a second assistant and might be getting a larger shop).

I'm just really bummed right now but obviously I'll watch/read what Tre has to say in the next update...

**Trodax**

RiTides, I totally understand your disappointment, but I think this was the right call. There was just such a big risk of this ending with a group of backers having pledged for way more than they wanted, which would mean some kind of refund or very unhappy customers. Since you're building an army, you may have still been decently happy with your $300 pledge even if this ended without the bonebacks, but many others would not be. People would have dropped their pledges on the last day (without the bonebacks, I would have had to scale back from $200 to maybe $90 I think; I really don't want that many duplicates if it can be avoided). And if the bonebacks turned out to be a no-go, there would probably have been a few like me who for various reasons didn't have Internet access on the last day, or who just didn't check, and would then be caught with a big pledge and only cheap goblins to spend it on (ie buttloads of duplicates).

I know you were hoping for the last day surge, but I really don't think it would have happened. I don't think existing backers would have increased their pledges much (but the decreases would likely be significant). There would have been new backers, sure, but I don't see new backers coming in on the last day pledging for stuff that isn't unlocked yet. Right now you can get 'one-of-everything' for $60, and it would have taken a *lot* of new backers at that level to get us the bonebacks. Given the lowering of pledges, I think there was a real risk of us ending up below $15K, or even $12,5K. It's just the wrong kind of excitement to have on the last day of a Kickstarter!

This has been tough, but hopefully Tre will come away having learned a lot. I certainly don't harbor any bad feelings, and I'll be back for the next one for sure!

**RiTides**

Which makes it all the more frustrating

because if he'd simply unlocked things, people wouldn't have had to drop their pledges, new backers would've come in, and we would've passed 25K easily.

Dreamforge really listened to this in their kickstarter- adding in weapon arms and adjusting pledge levels to the bone, resulting in a huge surge beyond what was needed.

If Tre had simply unlocked the bonebacks and even the wolf riders, we probably would've passed the goals for both.

I'm just bummed right now and don't want to be sour grapes. I had to pull a lot of strings to get $300 available by the end of this week and it turns out that it wasn't necessary. I just can't see how this was good or how this needed to be the outcome, there were so many ways to make this succeed and it almost seems sabotaged...

More than anything I am wondering what the hell to do about getting 150 goblins and if Tre will be offering these goblins up in his next campaign, when that campaign will be, if the delivery date will be later (I don't see how this isn't possible) and what the heck he could do to get more people interested, as only 150 were in on this campaign and I really don't think diversifying the offerings is going to bring more in. The only way I see a lot more coming in is all the KS1 items being delivered, which means a long delay... which means delayed goblins

**Trodax**

RiTides wrote:
If Tre had simply unlocked the bonebacks and even the wolf riders, we probably would've passed the goals for both.

This is probably true, but I also understand if Tre didn't want to take this risk.

I'm really sorry about your goblin army plans!

**RiTides**

Haha, I actually appreciate that sentiment quite a bit. Thanks for comiserating / feeling my pain!

I'm going to sleep it off and hopefully wake up to a wonderfully clear update from Tre telling us all his plans

**Trodax**

Good night bro; it'll turn out good in the end. And by good I mean you will have before you a vast horde of Tre Manor gobbos.

**Azazelx**

Disappointing, but not really surprising, given the circumstances and choices made. I think Trodax is right, and the last 2 days would have brought this one crashing down as more people pull out - rather than a surge.

**grefven**

I think that one major concern really is that there isn't any real bonus of joining this KS. There were no freebies, not any real discount, etc. I think a lot of people actually held off for this to hit the shelves rather than putting in money for something they may get (most likely with a long delay) or may not get.

Yes, I am all for that RBG is successful, and will support Tre if I can. But the support has to go both ways, I think. Tre gets fundings earlier while the supporters get a better deal. Otherwise, you might just as well drop the KS and work as normally. Maybe the problem is that Tre priced his goblins too low (*gasp*)! For normal trading, this is perfect. The lower you can set the price, the more people might want to pick them up. But for a KS (and how the KS has turned out to become) it isn't working. People are looking at the value. Will they be getting a better deal by backing the project than if they were to pick them up by a "normal" online store? But when Tre priced his goblins so low, maybe it is a problem to offer discounts/better deals then? Which means that people aren't getting a "good deal". What if Tre had set the price 20% higher for each individual figure. What if the solos would cost $6 instead of $5 normally, but during this KS he would "offer a discount" and offer each solo for $5. People would then think they getting a better deal of it, and might back.

So, is the real problem that Tre has set the price too low?!

**Azazelx**

Depends on how you look at it. These goblins are exceedingly tiny, after all - even compared to Tre's other figures.

**Mr Gutsy**

I agree with you Grefven, to me the problem with this Kickstarter (Besides the 'special rank' fiasco.) is that it was just the complete opposite of the Helsvakt campaign. There was no exclusive KS model, no freebies, and very little if any discount over the metal versions. Combine all that with the fact that people hadn't yet received their helsvakt KS orders, along with the amount of rival campaigns also running that may have offered better perceived value. (Darklands, SH gnomes.) And all these things formed together to create the perfect storm for a sub-par KS performance.

Im with Azazel when it comes to the goblins, they're absolutely tiny models and from what i can remember the Trollcast goblins in the KS actually cost the same as the metal ones from the RBG website. (I recall buying my 6 spearmen for $12 and the 12 bonebacks for $32 direct from Tre, granted i think i may have purchased them during a $2 off sale back in 2011.)

Tre mentioned over in the 'Crowd source funding' thread on Frothers that if he could redo the Helsvakt campaign he would've offered less of a discount and included only a fraction of the freebies in the highest pledge level. Im guessing that the Goblin campaign was an experiment by Tre to see if he could pull that off, only for the campaign too fall apart in his hands. Im hoping that Tre will find a middle ground for discounts/freebies with the relaunched campaign, enough so that the campaign still has some appeal but small enough so that Tre doesn't have to break bank.

(Link to the Frothers thread if anyone is interested.)
http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40380&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=930
Pages 88-95 are worth a read if you're interested in Tre's opinion of Kickstarter.

**grefven**

Mr Gutsy wrote:
Tre mentioned over in the 'Crowd source funding' thread on Frothers that if he could redo the Helsvakt campaign he would've offered less of a discount and included only a fraction of the freebies in the highest pledge level. Im guessing that the Goblin campaign was an experiment by Tre to see if he could pull that off, only for the campaign too fall apart in his hands. Im hoping that Tre will find a middle ground for discounts/freebies with the relaunched campaign, enough so that the campaign still has some appeal but small enough so that Tre doesn't have to break bank.

(Link to the Frothers thread if anyone is interested.)
http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40380&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=930
Pages 88-95 are worth a read if you're interested in Tre's opinion of Kickstarter.

Interesting read.

**RiTides**

There Tre again mentions how he thinks he's sold as many zombies as he ever will... yet, the very first reply someone says they'd buy them if they were for sale, and just last night I had a friend at the game store ask about buying zombies (he was thinking Mantic's).

I said "I know of even better zombies...!" but even though I told him about RBG, I realized that I couldn't direct him to go buy them anywhere.

Edit: Just got a follow-up email from my friend, he tracked down the zombies through the KS and wants to know how to buy them! You've got a market out there, Tre!

**judgedoug**

Now that we're looking into March and the majority of KS1 backers still have nothing, I'm beginning to wonder if there's something horribly wrong at Ed's shop.

We already had massive delays with Defiance Games, but everyone assumed Tony was being crappy again and Ed said "they didn't follow my advice" and that was that.

But now Ed's been casting RBG KS1 stuff for months and months now and the last KS1 update we've had is Feb 9 indicating the Riders, War Staff, and Conradt still aren't mastered. The last info from Trollforged was Feb 3 saying tons of models "will be in production"...

Ed's own KS are scheduled to ship April/May. He's shown like one completed sculpt. Does anyone thing he'll even be able to make this?

**tre manor**

Everythign is fine at Ed's Shop. It was just a LOT of work. Teh helsvakt are literally probably the most difficult thing he will ever undertake. Those little spikes have been a nightmare fro us both and I will NOT be doing anything like that again!

Ed has just a really big work load on him btu they have apparenyl come trhough ont he HelsVakt. Ed informed me this mornign that they have cast 100's of the horses and that I will have a package en route friday. So it shoudl be that by this time next week I will be shippign orders out again.

**RiTides**

Tre had posted this update earlier:

Update #11: Red Box Games Miniatures wrote:Hey Y'all,

Well after a great deal of very careful consideration I will be cancelling this KS campaign today. The reason being that we will not make the funding neccessary for the bonebacks and wolf riders and based on most of the private messages I have received and the forum posts and comments I have read those two items are the most desired rewards. I choose rather to be sure that you guys have the items that you actually want than to force you to pay for items that you do not. Believe me it is NOT easy doing this.

My plan from here is to finish two of the wolf riders and concept or finish a wolf rider hero. I will then relaunch the campaign with the first goal covering 6 of the footmen, 6 of the bonebacks, and 2 wolf riders. After that the stretch goals will be spaced apart by $5,000.00 to insure that we regularly achieve to finish filling out the goblin horde. I will also be structuring the rewards in such a way that no one is pledging toward options that do not yet exist so as to avoid the problems we have had here.

Do not worry about the delivery time slipping. I have spoken with Ed and have confirmation that we can keep that date. He understands my reasoning and has confidence in the potential. Further the Relaunch will only be about 1 or 2 weeks away from now. In that time I am going to work very hard to get all the bells and whistles in place for the next campaign to be sure that it is as clear as possible.

I am truly VERY sorry for the frustration that this causes but I assure you that I have the best interests of the final results in mind with this. The LAST thing that I want to do is to let anyone down and I feel that this is the best course of action to avoid that.

One other positive note to bear in mind is that by the time the next campaign begins I will have COMPLETED delivery of the previous KS rewards. Ed informed me this mornign that they have cast 100's of the horses and riders and that I will have a package full of goodies come monday or tuesday of next week. So when the next campaign launches we will have some much needed reinforcements to help us put those stretch goals behind us handily.

Thank you all for your support and patience.

Cheers,

tre'

Personally, now that the disappointment has rolled over me, I'm actually pretty excited about the new campaign. I'll definitely be in it. I had planned to convert my own wolf riders but having them get funded would be fantastic.

I also think getting all the KS1 items out the door is a fantastic plan before launching it. All in all, this could turn out to be a very good thing in the end. Live and learn

**Bossk_Hogg**

RiTides wrote:
There Tre again mentions how he thinks he's sold as many zombies as he ever will... yet, the very first reply someone says they'd buy them if they were for sale, and just last night I had a friend at the game store ask about buying zombies (he was thinking Mantic's).

I said "I know of even better zombies...!" but even though I told him about RBG, I realized that I couldn't direct him to go buy them anywhere.

Edit: Just got a follow-up email from my friend, he tracked down the zombies through the KS and wants to know how to buy them! You've got a market out there, Tre!

I think this is an important point. Tre was worried about cannabalizing future sales. If you have the money to get the sculpts done, the molds cast, etc, then I agree, it might be a poor choice to use KS, since people are expecting a discount for their pre-order. UNLESS you expect it to be a solid seller afterwards, in which case it might be OK to mostly break even on the sculpt/tooling because your profit will come from the casts afterwards. Tre just needs to build in the "sculptor" fee into the funding, IE, pay himself a fair rate much like other campaigns pay their sculptors. Then it might be worthwhile to run smaller KS projects (10-20k) while (re)building his mold library.

I'm really surprised theres no cost benefit for the family molds. If that's really the case, if he starts again with goblins, just toss out the idea of units entirely. Start with a pack of 4 footmen, a pack of 4 spearmen, a pack of 3 bone backs and 2 wolf riders. That way people who want a particular option can get it from the beginning, even if there isnt the variety in sculpts from the start.

**RiTides**

He laid out what he expects to start the next campaign with above:

My plan from here is to finish two of the wolf riders and concept or finish a wolf rider hero. I will then relaunch the campaign with the first goal covering 6 of the footmen, 6 of the bonebacks, and 2 wolf riders. After that the stretch goals will be spaced apart by $5,000.00 to insure that we regularly achieve to finish filling out the goblin horde. I will also be structuring the rewards in such a way that no one is pledging toward options that do not yet exist so as to avoid the problems we have had here.

Do not worry about the delivery time slipping. I have spoken with Ed and have confirmation that we can keep that date.

All of that is fantastic news to me. Obviously, I want all 12 sculpts of the footmen and bonebacks, and I think most people do too, but starting with 6 of each is pretty smart imo (as long as they all unlock by the end

) along with a few wolf riders.

It will please the people who wanted a few of everything, and get everything in at least partially at the beginning.

I think the suggestion folks made of setting a higher initial goal, but also having more initial offerings, is a good idea. I'd be thrilled if all of it could be "available" from the start, with just a much higher funding goal (say 25K). It lets people pledge for what they want

But at this point I think Tre knows exactly what to do and I'm just going to sit on my money and wait for this thing to launch

. I think realistically it will be more like a month until it launches, but that's totally fine with me.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

The apparent issue with family moulds and trollcast (or other resins) goes a bit like this

imagine a mould with 3 x A, 3 x B, 3 x C, 2 x D and 1 x E made based on what you expect to sell

If you guess wrong and E is a best seller you'll end up with many extras of the rest (you'll have to keep them, resin can't be tossed back in the pot like metal)

You've also got the same problems if one of your mould cavities fails (and casts duds) either straight away, or if it fails a lot faster than the rest

With metal it can be cost effective to just toss the dud casts (or unwanted ones) back in the pot, a spin is only 5 minutes work in a good shop it's not possible with resin as you can't recycle the cast, you have to pay for them.

Individual moulds just make more sense for resin, you get only the figure you want, if too many cavities fail junk the mould and make a new one.

**Bolognesus**

...and a failed cavity can be closed off with a little work and 24H waiting time (just pour in extra rubber!)

**Azazelx**

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

I think this is an important point. Tre was worried about cannabalizing future sales. If you have the money to get the sculpts done, the molds cast, etc, then I agree, it might be a poor choice to use KS, since people are expecting a discount for their pre-order.

That's the truth. If you want people to pay your costs upfront, and have a 3-6 month wait, you have to give a lot more than if you're selling available product in your store. Look into a loan and see what a bank will charge you.

The RBG fans will pour in a solid $15-20k, but if you want more, you need to give more. I put over $150 into the last kickstarter which included a bunch of figures I didn't need at all for anything and quite a few I'll probably never use or paint - primarily to support Tre' and his business. I justified it to myself by telling myself that I was A) supporting Tre' and B) "what a great deal!" The way things have panned out in the last few months have unfortunately changed my attitude, and the delays are only a small part of what's caused this. I'm not likely to throw $150 into the pot again to support a KS "just because". Not to mention that it's a pretty stupid way to spend my money.

If you want to make $100k selling pre-orders for figures for almost full price but with people fronting you the cash 4-6 months upfront, then you may find you're dreaming. No-one is expecting CMON/Zombiecide/Sedition Wars levels of freebies, giveaways and discounts, but the attitude shown in that Frothers thread and elsewhere does you no favours.

If this is a big problem, perhaps stop using Kickstarter and save up your own cash for the moulds, just like you used to do a year ago.

**RiTides**

Well, there is drama to say the least on the KS page. The issue seems to be, from Trollforged perspective, Red Box Games approved the horse casts in December (after several molds were made). 600 have been cast, but now, in April, Red Box Games is saying that they are miscast and need to be re-done. Personally, I don't know if those are the worst examples, but even if they are given that it is the belly / underside of the horses that is the issue, I would say that they need to be shipped.

The other issue is that of payment. Trollforged has had to put a lot of extra work into these without extra payment. Having cast 600 already, is it reasonable to ask them to cast more without paying? It all depends on what the "verbal approval" was, but if some of these have been in-hand since December, to me it does not seem reasonable to say they are unacceptable now. I have a good friend that does resin casting and in bulk this is going to be something you might see on the underside of models. Again, I wonder if these are worst-case or not.

If we could keep this discussion civil, and avoid a lot of the drama, I think everyone involved would really appreciate it.

If you are/were waiting on horses from this kickstarter, would you want these shipped to you? If not, can you think of an alternative at this point?

Personally, I cannot think of an alternative. People knew there were risks involved here, I would just ship these and folks can greenstuff the bellies of their horses if they think somehow people will see them

The first two in particular just look like normal resin casting to me. Who's going to see the belly of a horse? You could say you were expecting better, but come on, this is kickstarter

. Also, if Ed was only paid $13K for the entire job (that number was mentioned but not sure what it was for) and is now $5K in the hole on this, I don't know what more you can expect. It was an $80K kickstarter. To me, it sounds like it's too late in the process to reject the casts (if some were approved in December) after 600 have been made. You've got to just toss out the really bad ones and ship the rest, in my opinion.

Thoughts on this appreciated...

**Fenriswulf**

I personally would take those casts. Most of it looks like the problems you'd get from having to cast a full horse rather than just separate parts for the legs etc. That's a bad way to cast a miniature in my opinion, it's just asking for problems, which have shown up.

I actually do want to buy some of these, so long as the flaws don't make them impossible to clean up with filing or filling with green stuff. If Tre isn't happy, he needs to agree to have the horses legs removed and cast individually, as well as the rest, and pony (pun intended) the cash up for it. Otherwise he should take them as they are and offer a mea culpa to the buyers.

The longer this kickstarter drags on the more tempers are going to get frayed on both sides. I would like to buy some of the Helsvakt, and would buy some of the horses too if he wanted to get rid of the damaged stock. But above all I would (if I were a backer), want a resolution asap, as well as miniatures in my hands. It's gone on too long imho, and needs to be solved asap.

Not placing blame on any particular party here, I know there are two sides to a story, but I would like to see it resolved so the backers can get their Helsvakt, and people like me can also buy some of these fine miniatures.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

as a backer I've said ship them to me as is,

My green stuff/knife/file skills are up to fixing the problems (if they can be seen when they're based anyway

(They're no worse than many resin bit's I've had over the years)

My guess is the earlier stuff was crisper, and the problems have developed as the moulds have worn and the most recent delivery hit the 'Tre's, oh I notice a problem' level',

nobody's fault really and a shame tempers have frayed on both sides

**judgedoug**

they're pretty garbage but they were noticed only now? whatevs, i just want my figures now.