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Z- If you have nothing in wave 3, you really should chill out... you'll be getting your stuff soon.

We're all waiting, you're not alone.no need to hijack the thread with just your own circumstance. I dropped $500 on this, mostly for wave 3. Delays are part of KS. Mark is thinking of offering a discount as compensation.

Frankly, if you're that unhappy, I'm sure someone would buy your stuff.but if you're going to react like this to delays, you should probably not use KS. I have not had any projects be on time, and Mark communicates to us really well on here... quite unlike relic knights. If you prefer their non communication... you're the first to say so anywhere I've seen.

 Krinsath wrote:
Except Zwei doesn't have anything in Wave 3, so he's gotten all of the delay and no even remotely concillatory benefit.

I can certainly see his argument that once say, May or June rolled around they probably could have gone through and looked for the people who only had Wave 1+2 stuff and shipped the Wave 1 things. Would've been nice, but the fulfillment end is entirely WGF (a fact you seem to be overlooking, DFG doesn't touch the boxes), and if they didn't want to do it, or just didn't think of it, then there's not much Mark can do.

The new shots of the KD:M stuff does seem to indicate who one of those "cash customers" was though. Makes me happy for KD, but kind of frustrated with WGF at the same time. I understand wanting to land that contract for both prestige and cash, but it does kind of seem like it came at the expense of existing projects. Hopefully they'll do something to make up for that, and as an additional hope maybe folks like Zwei (because I doubt he's unique, and if he was well, there's the problem ) can take advantage of it.

EDIT: Needed to emphasize the logistics of fulfillment are all on WGF.

Actually the logistics/fulfilment issues are NOT down to WGF

Dreamforge ran the KS,

Dreamforge chose who to partner with for production and delivery

so it's down to Dreamforge to sort stuff out

(now they may choose not to, they may choose to pass responsibility to WGF, they may be in a no-win situation now contracts have been signed but it was their choice in the first place)

It does sound like Mark should perhaps look into other options at least for those with wave 1 & 2 but no wave 3 stuff

Now that wave 2 is done, people with wave 2 stuff need something other than their wave 2 stuff? I'm sorry, I just don't get that. Mark is already looking into a discount for all backers due to the delays, isn't that enough? If the delays were unacceptable, I don't doubt that people could have gotten refunds months ago if they chose to.

Took some time to digest he tirade. We all are suffering from the delays of product, mark realizes that and is looking into the coupon thing for everyone. I also only ordered wave 1 and 2 items, but I paid to have them shipped separately, this is because I saw how other kick starters were running late and didn't want to get caught up in on it. Z, you chose to wait till both were done and saw other kick starters with delays, that's on you. You talk about how many you've dumped money on, you could have ponied up the other shipping charge, but decided not to. I feel for you in seeing it sitting on the shelf, but tak it down a few pegs. This is all the risk of a kick starter, your dealing with an unknown product and an untested company. There are bound to be delays, that's why we got discounts. Not because of preordering, but because they needed capital and to shake out the bugs.

I'm not trying to be offensive, you should have seen my first message before I deleted it.

Speaking of which if anyone is getting a big mortis and doesn't need the right claw let me know

 RiTides wrote:
Z- If you have nothing in wave 3, you really should chill out... you'll be getting your stuff soon.

We're all waiting, you're not alone.no need to hijack the thread with just your own circumstance. I dropped $500 on this, mostly for wave 3. Delays are part of KS. Mark is thinking of offering a discount as compensation.

Frankly, if you're that unhappy, I'm sure someone would buy your stuff.but if you're going to react like this to delays, you should probably not use KS. I have not had any projects be on time, and Mark communicates to us really well on here... quite unlike relic knights. If you prefer their non communication... you're the first to say so anywhere I've seen.

I am not sure why I can't say what I think?

I don't have Wave 3 stuff. I have absolutely minimal Wave 2 stuff. The reason I backed the Kickstarter, and the model I was hoping to build, is the Leviathan Crusader. It is more or less 90% of my pledge financially and more than that "content-wise". That is the model I pledged for and I get it nearly a year after everyone else, and at higher costs (with import tax) than I could've bought it down at my FLGS for months.

And no, nobody will buy my stuff off me, because they could get the Leviathan cheaper from Wayland Games or whatever (even after x% the e-tailers keeps for themselves) than what I pay to get it .. with months of delays, straight from the producers and original Kickstarter-creator. Not to mention that most people excited about the Kickstarter had their Leviathan bought, build and painted months ago.

That is a rather poor outcome. I am happy not everyone has as poor an outcome as I did. But I think it is strange that people try to gag me for saying what I think about the outcome of this Kickstarter.

And again, I know that Kickstarters have delays. I backed Reaper Bones... delayed. I backed Kingdom Death.. delayed. I backed smaller Indiegogos like Massive Voodoos Figure Art book... delayed. But all (!) of them handled the delay a lot (!) better than DFG.

I know the risk I am taking when backing a Kickstarter and I accept it. At the same time, I think I do have a right to voice my opinion if a Kickstarter goes bad. And from all the Crowdfunding-campaigns I backed, this has been one of the worst, netting my a year-old model for a premium price despite a 1-year down-payment.

I am not hijacking any threads by saying just that, unless people claim that my criticism is somehow not valid, only because they've not gotten quite as rough a treatment (how's that supposed to improve my case?).

 Theophony wrote:
I also only ordered wave 1 and 2 items, but I paid to have them shipped separately, this is because I saw how other kick starters were running late and didn't want to get caught up in on it. Z, you chose to wait till both were done and saw other kick starters with delays, that's on you.

Sure. Again, I choose to wait until March 2013. Partly because I was abroad December 2012/January 2013 and wasn't able to build stuff any way and partly because Wave 2 arms without the Leviathan don't help me much model wise anyhow.

But I find it preposterous to say 7 months of delay are "my fault" because I locked in a certain type of shipment option back in September 2012. The delay is DFG's fault, and they choose to pass it on 100% to their Kickstarter backers, unlike all other delayed Kickstarter campaigns I ever saw, even though they could've easily a) allowed people to change shipping options... or b) arrange separate wave 1 shipments piggy-backed on their shipments to stockists in the uk, or c) switch the odd wave 2 arm to a wave 1 arm, or d) allowed people to change their pledges to get more "new" wave 2 stuff for their wait, or e) a million other things.

Does DFG have to do this? Of course not. It's their right to have backers suck it up. But most other Kickstarters don't, which makes this one stand out in a rather bad way.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Actually the logistics/fulfilment issues are NOT down to WGF

Dreamforge ran the KS,

Dreamforge chose who to partner with for production and delivery

so it's down to Dreamforge to sort stuff out

(now they may choose not to, they may choose to pass responsibility to WGF, they may be in a no-win situation now contracts have been signed but it was their choice in the first place)

It does sound like Mark should perhaps look into other options at least for those with wave 1 & 2 but no wave 3 stuff

So, a decision made before the KS even began when Mark had no way of foreseeing issues of this severity and likely has no way out of now is somehow his fault? The fulfillment is WGF's bailiwick; when my Wave 1 had a mix-up, I did not email Mark. I emailed WGF. The boxes did not say Dreamforge on the mailing labels, they said Wargames Factory. Once the designs are submitted, everything from that point is WGF. These delays aren't Mark twiddling his thumbs and posting things to Tumblr, they're delays at the factory.

Now, can Mark be an advocate for people who have been impacted by WGF's delays? Sure, and it sounds very much like he is trying his level best in this regard. He's gotten them to basically do wave shipping for everyone (of no benefit to some, unfortunately) and negotiating for some sort of coupon (which may also be of no benefit to some). If you have further suggestions for things that might be reasonably done, I'm sure Mark is all ears. However, since it still boils down to "what does WGF want to do?" there's going to be an upper limit on what's going to happen. To say he's doing nothing to try and improve things for his backers is being disingenuous, but it's entirely reasonable to say that some people (like Zwei) aren't getting a whole lot.

With the benefit of hindsight would he do things differently now? Sure, but it does not seem like the problem with this project has been Mark/DFG. This is cold comfort to the people who have been waiting a year+, and for those of us who seem likely to be waiting even longer for Wave 3, but I do feel it is unfair to blame Mark for WGF's problems. You can say "he should have chosen a better supplier" but then you'd be hard-pressed to find a company that could execute the work as well as WGF has.

As Zwei himself said, this is part of the risk of backing a KS versus buying a retail product, but I do agree it hits certain people a bit harder than most and that's most unfortunate. I do find it doubtful that Mark will leave them twisting in the wind if he can find any means to avoid that.

 Zweischneid wrote:
I am not sure why I can't say what I think?

Please point out where someone has said you can't. Unless you're telling us we can't say what we think about your complaints?

I honestly don't see how your situation is worse than anyone elses. We all suffered the same delays. We knew about these delays a long time ago, if you weren't happy with them I'm sure you could have gotten a refund - though with it about to ship, it would be too late now I imagine.

That is the model I pledged for and I get it nearly a year after everyone else, and at higher costs (with import tax) than I could've bought it down at my FLGS for months,

It would have been on the shelves for 4 months before you got yours anyway since you went for combined wave 1+2, going off the given timeframe so that argument doesn't hold any water. Saying you'll get yours a year after everyone else is complete bollocks... I'm done here. You're making no attempts to be reasonable.

 Yonan wrote:

It would have been on the shelves for 4 months before you got yours anyway since you went for combined wave 1+2, going off the given timeframe so that argument doesn't hold any water. Saying you'll get yours a year after everyone else is complete bollocks... I'm done here. You're making no attempts to be reasonable.

Yes I would.

I am still not sure how accepting a 3-4 month delay originally somehow makes me culpable for having to sit through another 7-month delay on top of that?

And could I have asked Mark for a refund? Perhaps, if that is what I wanted. But other...better (?) Kickstarters came forth on their own and offered it to all their backers after delays of this magnitude (e.g. Relic Knights).

I'm curious where the WGF/Kingdom Death rumors came from- that's a new one to me. I'll have to see if I can get some info on that before I sign my NDA

 Dr Mathias wrote:
I'm curious where the WGF/Kingdom Death rumors came from- that's a new one to me. I'll have to see if I can get some info on that before I sign my NDA

If you look at the latest KD:M update there's pictures of a Pinup sprue that looks very much like WGF's style with the stacking pins/sockets. Adam mentions his supplier expanding, adding very expensive equipment and Cyporean references slide-core tooling, which is also a WGF trait. Additionally, Mark's update references WGF's expansions including new high-end equipment and "cash customers" as part of the delays so the two would fit together, and KD:M certainly had the cash.

I don't think there's been any official word to that effect, but it's slightly better-informed Internet speculation adding 2 and 2 together. Doesn't guarantee that's the case, because it could be coincidence of course.

EDIT: Since it's rude to mention pictures and not include them:

 Yonan wrote:
It would have been on the shelves for 4 months before you got yours anyway since you went for combined wave 1+2, going off the given timeframe so that argument doesn't hold any water. Saying you'll get yours a year after everyone else is complete bollocks... I'm done here. You're making no attempts to be reasonable.

Agreed, don't feed the discussion here. The point is made, continuing to repeat it over and over eventually becomes thread hijacking, as I said.

Krinsath, yeah that sprue looks very much like WGF, as Mark already mentioned their taking on additional work (but with different personnel / equipment involved).

 Zweischneid wrote:

No, I didn't pay for each (of the 2 first waves) to be shipped separately on the assumption that it would ship roughly March 2013. As said, I don't have Wave 3 stuff.

The offer to ship separately to people who are locked in Wave 3 is precisely the kind of thing I would've liked to have seen for people locked into Wave 2 as well. Shipping Wave 1 separately, despite a different lock-in, can't be much of a problem, as that stuff ships regularly across the pond, as evidenced by the boxes in my FLGS or in the inventory of etailers like Wayland Games.

At the very least - once it became clear that Wave 2 would be significantly delayed - the option to a) change from combined shipping to separate shipping or b) change from Wave 1 and Wave 2 stuff to only Wave 2 stuff (and by Wave 1 stuff through different channels) would have been welcome, and would have cost DFG nothing at all.

Much ado about typical for kickstarter. You want all of your March 2013 stuff shipped, but it hasn't happened because it doesn't yet exist. I paid for three waves of shipping and I don't have my gak either, because it's not finished. While I am actually a little annoyed that Wave 1&2 stuff is shipping together as a "freebie" seperate to Wave 3, I'd be fething furious and expecting a refund on the shipping I paid if they shipped Wave 1 stuff for free as well.

While it's unfortunate, and I wasn't aware of it at the time, I now know that Kickstarter "expected fulfilment" dates don't really mean gak.

 Azazelx wrote:


Much ado about typical for kickstarter. You want all of your March 2013 stuff shipped, but it hasn't happened because it doesn't yet exist.

Sure it exists. I can walk into my local FLGS and look at the box. Or I can order one here.

If it can be shipped to a retailer 500 yards from my house well before March 2013 - who hasn't even backed the KS - why can't it be shipped to me on March 2013?

Funny thing. I had originally purchased the 15mm dudes to represent dreadknights or soul grinders for my Iron Warrior themed force. That was when we expected everything on time. Then I was like, well maybe they'll be awesome Riptides. Well now that we're probably not looking till after christmas god only knows what they'll be but I still got the kits for a steal and can't wait for them and the new weapons. Though a nice coupon would be good for me to grab the black widows when they are in the pipeline. Or even re-opening the pledge manager for wave 3 stuff would be fine

Long story short the quality and communication has been good enough that I don't really mind the delays even though they played havoc with some of my painting and playing schedule. And this was only the second product I backed and it was before Sedition Wars (my first) began running into issues. Now, like Azazelx, I know that the timelines are generally wishfull thinking

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


Much ado about typical for kickstarter. You want all of your March 2013 stuff shipped, but it hasn't happened because it doesn't yet exist.

Sure it exists. I can walk into my local FLGS and look at the box. Or I can order one here.

If it can be shipped to a retailer 500 yards from my house well before March 2013 - who hasn't even backed the KS - why can't it be shipped to me on March 2013?

You know what, I agree. If someone paid for March 2013 shipping, it should be shipped after that even if they order isn't filled.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

I said it was your fault IF you didn't pay extra for each wave to be posted separately.

I don't want each wave posted separately. I want all of the stuff posted in March 2013 as promised.

Yeah, me too. And I want all my Sedition Wars gak in March 2013 as promised, as well. And my Cthulhu Wars and Robotech stuff in Nov-Dec 2013 as promised so I am able to mess around with them over my Christmas break instead of next year when it will just sit idle for months, as well, and wanted my Red Box stuff last October instead of whenever it actually turned up in the middle of this year. My "Will ship right away" Reaper Paints and metal Sophies turned up almost a year late because I'm not in the US and they decided to change the rules after payment, and the actual Bones were 6 months late, and... well, we're seeing a bit of an unfortunate pattern here, no?

So I am disappointed with it. And I am allowed to say so, no?

Absolutely. Disappointment is one thing, and it's fair enough to share it. But as I said, those of us who paid for shipping got nothing as a sweetener. If your stuff is 6-7 months late then you're essentially in the same boat as I and many others are - or anyone who backed Sedition Wars...

 Krinsath wrote:
Except Zwei doesn't have anything in Wave 3, so he's gotten all of the delay and no even remotely concillatory benefit.

Well, I paid for three waves of shipping. I don't get any conciliatory benefit, either. I'm not the only one in this thread in the same situation. While he has every right to complain and be unhappy, he's no worse off than I am - or most of the rest of us are. People like Theophony who are only getting Wave 1 & 2 items and paid for wave shipping have even more reason to be unhappy. Talk about a lack of conciliatory benefits...

 Zweischneid wrote:

I know the risk I am taking when backing a Kickstarter and I accept it. At the same time, I think I do have a right to voice my opinion if a Kickstarter goes bad. And from all the Crowdfunding-campaigns I backed, this has been one of the worst, netting my a year-old model for a premium price despite a 1-year down-payment.

Six months. The model will be six months old when you receive it. Maybe seven. Not a year.

Would I back a second DFG Kickstarter? Perhaps. But probably not at this stage. I'd have to see, but I'd be a lot more careful and weary. I'm one of those people who are pissed off with WGF right now. As Yonan said though, with the "inevitable" KS delays, you'd have been looking at the Leviathan on the shelf at your local FLGS for several months even if everything had shipped on time.

 Krinsath wrote:

 Dr Mathias wrote:
I'm curious where the WGF/Kingdom Death rumors came from- that's a new one to me. I'll have to see if I can get some info on that before I sign my NDA

If you look at the latest KD:M update there's pictures of a Pinup sprue that looks very much like WGF's style with the stacking pins/sockets. Adam mentions his supplier expanding, adding very expensive equipment and Cyporean references slide-core tooling, which is also a WGF trait. Additionally, Mark's update references WGF's expansions including new high-end equipment and "cash customers" as part of the delays so the two would fit together, and KD:M certainly had the cash.

Thanks, much appreciated.

Back to the coupon discussion- Mark, if you offer that I'm totally going to get more alternate arms from wave 3. Hopefully WGF was paying attention / you can show them the comments from the last page on how many folks would be interested in that

 Azazelx wrote:
you'd have been looking at the Leviathan on the shelf at your local FLGS for several months even if everything had shipped on time.

Again, how does that make me culpable to the delay?

Quite the opposite. That is the reason this delay is so ... unprofessional. It's got nothing to do with WGF. Or container ships. Or anything else.

The boxes have been all over the UK for months when March 2013 came around. It would've cost DFG absolutely nothing to get on the phone with one of their stockists in Europe and have outstanding Wave 1 stuff fulfilled at no additional shipping costs for DFG from the existing shipments to stockists when it became clear that Wave 2 was in a funk.

Or, give people the option to change shipping options, known that wave 2 would be delayed.

Or, give people the option to change the pledge, switching to only-Wave 1 stuff only.

Or, give people the option to change the pledge, switching to only-Wave 2 stuff only, buying Wave-1 stuff from a FLGS.

Or, give people the option to cancel the pledge Relic-Knights-style.

Or, add some "we're sorry-bonus" to people waiting Kingdom-Death-style.

But they did nothing.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

Much ado about typical for kickstarter. You want all of your March 2013 stuff shipped, but it hasn't happened because it doesn't yet exist.

Sure it exists. I can walk into my local FLGS and look at the box. Or I can order one here.
If it can be shipped to a retailer 500 yards from my house well before March 2013 - who hasn't even backed the KS - why can't it be shipped to me on March 2013?

Oh, I misunderstood. I assumed you wanted your Wave 2 stuff included there because March. Instead you want to be a special snowflake who didn't pay for wave shipping but gets it for free instead. I'm actually right on board with you, as soon as I get my refund for paying for it.

@Lobukia. I think the issue is that it really opens a can of worms for people who paid for wave shipping. While it would be a nice gesture, it opens the way for a very many unhappy people and a significant number of refund requests. He also didn't pay separately for Wave 1 shipping. He paid for "send it all at once" shipping.

You chose to wait until after Leviathans were delivered to stores to get yours, by electing to wait until Wave 2 shipped. Wave 2 is about to ship.

Your reaction here is the very definition of "tempest in a teacup", and if you want to be taken seriously in any kickstarter-related thread, you might want to tone down the outrage a little bit. Mark has been communicating frequently about the delays, but you're only just now coming in and freaking out about it... right when Wave 2 is about to be delivered

So, yeah... at this point you should probably avoid Kickstarter altogether if this is going to be your reaction to a delay, with communication all along about it. *shrug* Apparently you aren't as experienced with KS's as you make yourself out to be if this really bothers you so much!

OK!

I think we've gone far enough down that particular road.

Zweischneid is upset that his wave 1 stuff is available in stores, and is possibly upset that he chose to go for a combined shipping option instead of individual wave shipping.

This Kickstater is late, and there's no real hard ship date yet.

Understood.

All this arguing in circles is now way off topic, and as such, any more on that in here will be considered just that.

Move along everyone - thanks!

On delays, some not-quite-random musings.

I think an issue here is that we're not privy to the details of the relationship between Mark (DFG) and WGF. If you read the stuff we were discussing on the weekend, well, actually, I'll just quote it here instead. It seems that WGF are doing it all and that (speculatively) Mark's involvement may be somewhat more akin to getting a commission on sales of "his" product. Here I was asking Mark if we could add more Wave 3 items - basically if we could give him more money. It seems that manpower for this sort of thing is on the surprisingly low side - and that it's on the WGF end.

 NoseGoblin wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
To clarify - I'm talking about the Wave 3 items since it's likely too late to add to Wave 2. It'd also give you and WGF a bit of a cash injection and perhaps motivate WGF to add some priority for the gak that's already been paid for,,,

The issue here is that the pledge manager and the WGF POS system do not talk, everything is force fed into the WGF POS system. To make a change to a single order would require blowing away your current order, hand entering your new order along with the changes then arranging payment with a third party processor, verifying payment, authorizing the new order and double checking the new total for the items... all manually, all done by one person.

Unfortunately the above process is not an option at this point. The option I am asking about would be to provide you a very deep discount (better than any retailer offers) so that you could make a purchase at your convenience and have it processed in a manner that is far less likely to cause errors and still net you a very healthy savings beyond what you can find elsewhere. The down side is that you would need to pay shipping for a separate delivery. The question becomes is this even an option worth considering?

The other thing to take into account here is that from the updates we've gotten this year on it all, my reading is that Mark has been strung out a bit by WGF, and that the delays "should" have been far smaller (even the latest one on the weapon arms shows that - and it's adding at least a month to fulfilment) and that it's been one instance of this after another. I imagine that if they were expecting such Wave 2 delays they may have actually gone through with one of the suggestions you offered in your post - I seem to remember some Wave 2 should be much faster/we'll make up some ground."-type posts from Mark after W1 shipped.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
OK!
I think we've gone far enough down that particular road.

Edited my post to be more "general" about delays rather than a direct reply to Zwei.

 RiTides wrote:
You chose to wait until after Leviathans were delivered to stores to get yours, by electing to wait until Wave 2 shipped. Wave 2 is about to ship.

Your reaction here is the very definition of "tempest in a teacup", and if you want to be taken seriously in any kickstarter-related thread, you might want to tone down the outrage a little bit. Mark has been communicating frequently about the delays, but you're only just now coming in and freaking out about it... right when Wave 2 is about to be delivered

So, yeah... at this point you should probably avoid Kickstarter altogether if this is going to be your reaction to a delay, with communication all along about it. *shrug* Apparently you aren't as experienced with KS's as you make yourself out to be if this really bothers you so much!

How should I "tone it down" and still express disappointment? I think I am using reasonable language.

Yes, I elected to wait for Wave 2 on the information that Wave 2 would ship in March 2013. How does that give DFG a carte blanche to just have me wait another 6 months for stuff they can easily deliver?

Again. When they saw March 2013 wasn't gonna be it, they could've given people option. Maybe not in March itself, but in May? In July? Allow backers to react to the new information. Something. Anything other than "too bad, you checked the wrong box in the September 2012 survey, live with it".

Precisely because I backed I other Kickstarters as well, I can confidently say that this approach chosen by DFG - though clearly part of the "Kickstarter-risk" (which I never doubted or disputed) - makes DFG a sub-standard Kickstarter relative to the efforts demonstrated by many other Kickstarter-projects out there.

Seriously - enough.

 NoseGoblin wrote:
How would you feel about a discount coupon that can be redeemed at the WGF website? I cannot promise anything but I did bat the idea around with WGF a couple months back.

Let me know your thoughts.....

Emphasis mine, but quoting this over in case folks missed it. If you'd be interested in a discount coupon as a gesture to help make up for the delays, please post up and let DreamForge / WGF know

 Alpharius wrote:
Seriously - enough.

sorry. didn't see your first post as I was typing

 Dr Mathias wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:

 Dr Mathias wrote:
I'm curious where the WGF/Kingdom Death rumors came from- that's a new one to me. I'll have to see if I can get some info on that before I sign my NDA

If you look at the latest KD:M update there's pictures of a Pinup sprue that looks very much like WGF's style with the stacking pins/sockets. Adam mentions his supplier expanding, adding very expensive equipment and Cyporean references slide-core tooling, which is also a WGF trait. Additionally, Mark's update references WGF's expansions including new high-end equipment and "cash customers" as part of the delays so the two would fit together, and KD:M certainly had the cash.

Thanks, much appreciated.

I'm sure that Wyrd's push for Gencon product also was a factor.

if they found a way to make a coupon work that would allow us to add wave 3 stuff....yikes i'd be handing over lots of cash