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 Ghaz wrote:
The rule is written just fine. You however have no support for your claims that you can take an illegal option for a model by playing around with the 'timing' of upgrades.

But I see no illegal option in the rules as written. As there is no timing and as long as I follow all written rules. ie swapping a weapon that I have to upgrade said model. But I guess we agree to disagree. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
But if he purchase's stuff before and then upgrades him to an apoth I don't see the problem. As long as he still has the right wargear to swap for said upgrade. Remember he starts as a veteran now, unlike the space marine dex where he is all ready an apoth.

At least that is my thinking on the matter

So you wouldn't mind if I take 10 eldar guardians, buy them a transport, then buy 10 more guardians for the squad?
After all, I did have 12 or less guardians when I bought the transport.
You're timing makes it legal, yet clearly that is not what was intended.

-Matt

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

But I see no illegal option in the rules as written. As there is no timing and as long as I follow all written rules. ie swapping a weapon that I have to upgrade said model. But I guess we agree to disagree. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Except it is illegal for the Apothecary to have a storm bolter. If that was0 a legal option then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? And yor claims of being allowed to do so don't hold up because you have no support to back your claims that you can have an illegal model due to playing with the timing. If it were meant to be legal, you wouldn't be forced to justify it by timing issues.

If any model was allowed, the rule would say so. It's not like that is new or novel, it's in every recent codex. It is even on the same page of the same unit entry! "Any model may take:" It is even in THE SAME RULE, "For every full five models in the squad, one Veteran may..." Again, if it was meant to be model, it would say model. It does not.

Homer

Well again I said we agree to disagree. I see no problem with it you see a problem with it. Its all good whatever way you decide to do it is up to you. But I know my group reads it the way I do.

And what about the model I posted the link to. Does that not hold any merit to what I am talking about? Or is GW wrong, you know the company that makes the models and the rules.

Everyone of you have talked about presidence being stated. I am curious as to what the ruling for the Nobs having Bshootas in Ork squads are. There are no FAQ's to say yeah or nah to this. It seems to go along the same line with this situation. I have always equiped my nob with PK and Bshoota. Seems pretty legit to me as does the apoth having a Storm bolter.

The thing is nobs have the option to take a klaw, it was the exchange wording that prevented it pre-faq.

Storm bolter is not an option for apothecaries.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
The thing is nobs have the option to take a klaw, it was the exchange wording that prevented it pre-faq.

Storm bolter is not an option for apothecaries.

I am not talking about the Klaw, I am talking about the Big Shoota.

The FAQ says nothing of a big shoota, only a power klaw and big choppa.

And that is my point. The same situation for the Bshoota on the Nob as for the Apothecary and the storm bolter. So if they haven't FAQ'ed the Nob and his ability to take the Bshoota then why can't the apoth take a Storm bolter? Same situation to me.

Can you quote the exact text that allows a nob to take a big shoota? I don't own that codex.

"For every 10 Orks in the Mob, one Ork may exchange his slugga or shoota for:
- Big Shoot............................_points per model
- Rokkit launcher.................._points per model"

The FAQ kinda sets a timing thing like I have been trying to prove. You can make him a Nob before you exchange the units weapons. So there is some kind of timing situation to me. If not then he would have a shoota and can't get rid of it.

Somethings still missing. What are the names attached to stat lines? Does it say "ork" or "ork boyz" or what next to the non-nob statline?

Boy
'Ard Boy
Nob
'Ard Boy Nob

what I wrote is under Options (bold print)

The There is Character (Bold Print)

One boy may be upgraded to a Nob....+_ points
He may replace his Choppa with one of the Following:
- Big Choppa......_ points
- Power Klaw..._points
He may take any of the following:
Eavy armor(if not a 'Ard Boy Nob).._points
Boos pole...._ points

Well there's the difference.

It says for every 10 orks, one ork may... Ork is a generic racial term pertaining to nobs, boyz, ard boyz etc.

Not even close to the apothecary issue. The model ceases to be a veteran when you upgrade him. Storm bolters are not an option for apothecary models. If it said "any model" or "any dark angel" it would be comperable.

Yes but storm bolters are accessable to veterans. Then the veteran is accessable to the Aopthecary upgrade. It really is the same thing as the timing that has been set with the FAQ buying the Nob before you upgrade the squad. So I don't really see a difference other then armies.

But the nob has permission to end with a big shoota or klaw because he is an ork and all nobs can take klaws. There was a faq to clarify the timing because the echange was poorly written.

The apothecary has no permission to end with wargear for veterans, because he ceases to be a veteran.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:I am curious as to what the ruling for the Nobs having Bshootas in Ork squads are. There are no FAQ's to say yeah or nah to this. It seems to go along the same line with this situation. I have always equiped my nob with PK and Bshoota. Seems pretty legit to me as does the apoth having a Storm bolter.

Doesn't this go against your own standard you have set previously in this thread with regards to Painboys?

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Because the painboy has his own options listed,( In Bold ) that is why he is only limited to those. Seems pretty clear to me.

The Nob in a boyz squad has his own options listed in a separate section, shouldn't he then be only limited to those, just like you claim the Painboy is?

Just so you know the FAQ says ( Any model may replace his blotgun with one of the following
stom bolter......x points per model
combi weapon..... x points per model
and so on and so on

Command Squads and Company Veterans are different things

Sorry I do not have my codex in front of me but i thought the company command squad was just a upgraded vet squad

In terms of fluff, yeah it basically is, but they have totally separate unit entries in the army list, and the FAQ only applies to the specific "Company Veterans" entry.

So this whole arguement just boils down to RAI and RAW and how thay play at there game store. If they play Rule As Writtten then no you can not, but if they play Rule As Intended then it is fine. Just go ask your gamming buddies as to what they think about the whole thing and go from there.

To take a Nath, he needs to trade his boltgun, to take a storm he needs to trade his boltgun... what is so hard to comprehend? He takes one, no longer has the boltgun. Ergo nothing is left to trade for something else.

Khalbrae wrote:
To take a Nath, he needs to trade his boltgun, to take a storm he needs to trade his boltgun... what is so hard to comprehend? He takes one, no longer has the boltgun. Ergo nothing is left to trade for something else.

Command squad Vets don't have Bolters. Would be kinda hard to trade away somehting you never have to begin with.

 Happyjew wrote:

Khalbrae wrote:
To take a Nath, he needs to trade his boltgun, to take a storm he needs to trade his boltgun... what is so hard to comprehend? He takes one, no longer has the boltgun. Ergo nothing is left to trade for something else.

Command squad Vets don't have Bolters. Would be kinda hard to trade away somehting you never have to begin with.

They also don't have to give up anything to take a storm shield...

No wonder this has gone on for 3 pages, it appears half the people don't even know the unit in question.

Storm probably refers to storm bolter.

I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

confoo22 wrote:
I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

How do you lose it though? The apothecary's wargear is a narthicium which I swap out the bolt pistol for and the chainsword that he starts with. So for example.

I buy vet. he comes standard with bolt pistol and chainsword. I swap chainsword for storm bolter. I then swap bolt pistol for the Apothecary upgrade. I don't lose anything that I couldn't take so there for it is all legal.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

How do you lose it though? The apothecary's wargear is a narthicium which I swap out the bolt pistol for and the chainsword that he starts with. So for example.

I buy vet. he comes standard with bolt pistol and chainsword. I swap chainsword for storm bolter. I then swap bolt pistol for the Apothecary upgrade. I don't lose anything that I couldn't take so there for it is all legal.

Because the apothecary has a standard wargear listing on page 33 so when the model is upgraded, that listing would assert itself.

 wilsmire wrote:
So this whole arguement just boils down to RAI and RAW and how thay play at there game store. If they play Rule As Writtten then no you can not, but if they play Rule As Intended then it is fine. Just go ask your gamming buddies as to what they think about the whole thing and go from there.

And what leads you to believe that the RAW is not what they intended? I sure don't see anything that would indicate that they intended for the Apothecary to be able to take a storm bolter.