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confoo22 wrote:

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

How do you lose it though? The apothecary's wargear is a narthicium which I swap out the bolt pistol for and the chainsword that he starts with. So for example.

I buy vet. he comes standard with bolt pistol and chainsword. I swap chainsword for storm bolter. I then swap bolt pistol for the Apothecary upgrade. I don't lose anything that I couldn't take so there for it is all legal.

Because the apothecary has a standard wargear listing on page 33 so when the model is upgraded, that listing would assert itself.

Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That being said, I do agree RAW they can't. But I also think it's stupid to make a narthecium need its own hand when it doesn't in every other current codex, so I would let people I play with upgrade their apothecary as much as they want.

Nivek5150 wrote:
That being said, I do agree RAW they can't. But I also think it's stupid to make a narthecium need its own hand when it doesn't in every other current codex, so I would let people I play with upgrade their apothecary as much as they want.

Now here you're just plain wrong. In the model, Narthecium takes one complete hand. I'm not sure do BT get Apothecaries in Terminator armour, but C:GK Apothecary can only have Narthecium and either NFW or Brotherhood Banner.

Now, in C:SM Apothecary has both Chainsword and Bolter or bolt pistol, though as far as game mechanics goes, there is no difference between having bolter and bolter+chainsword.

Nivek5150 wrote:
Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That begs the question of whether or not an Apothecary still counts as a veteran once it's been upgraded. Northing in the listing says an apothecary can exchange its chainsword, only veterans.

confoo22 wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That begs the question of whether or not an Apothecary still counts as a veteran once it's been upgraded. Northing in the listing says an apothecary can exchange its chainsword, only veterans.

And nothing says you can't exchange stuff before he is a apothecary. As long as he has the bolt pistol to exchange for the narthicium.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That begs the question of whether or not an Apothecary still counts as a veteran once it's been upgraded. Northing in the listing says an apothecary can exchange its chainsword, only veterans.

And nothing says you can't exchange stuff before he is a apothecary. As long as he has the bolt pistol to exchange for the narthicium.

Except that when he becomes an apoth wouldn't he gain the listing on page 33 which spells out an apothecary's loadout? That would mean he loses his previous loadout and you then can't exchange any of his weapons since apoths don't have options in the listing.

I don't have the Codex on me ATM, what is listed on pg 33?

No he gets whats in the army list section. Which is a bolt pistol and a chainsword starting out as a vet. To upgrade to a Apothecary he would have to swap the pistol for a narthicium. So would end up with a chainsword and Narthicium. But if he swapped the Chainsword for a storm bolter before he was a Apothecary then he would swap the pistol for a Narthicium just like normal and would end up with a Storm Bolter and Narthicium.

No problem in my mind with this.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
I don't have the Codex on me ATM, what is listed on pg 33?

No he gets whats in the army list section. Which is a bolt pistol and a chainsword starting out as a vet. To upgrade to a Apothecary he would have to swap the pistol for a narthicium. So would end up with a chainsword and Narthicium. But if he swapped the Chainsword for a storm bolter before he was a Apothecary then he would swap the pistol for a Narthicium just like normal and would end up with a Storm Bolter and Narthicium.

No problem in my mind with this.

Then why would the apothecary have a separate listing in the squad section? If it was just an equipment upgrade, which your argument seems to suggest it is, and not a character upgrade then that would be unnecessary.

The wording in the book seems to suggest that when you trade out the bolt pistol the veteran becomes an apothecary, not just gets a narthecium. As a character that has its own separate listing under the command squad section, so then the loadout would become that of an apothecary which is listed as: Power Armor, Chainsword, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Narthecium. Veterans and the Company Champion also have their own separate listings.

The argument is basically whether the model becomes an apoth or if it just exchanges its bolt pistol.

Luide wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
That being said, I do agree RAW they can't. But I also think it's stupid to make a narthecium need its own hand when it doesn't in every other current codex, so I would let people I play with upgrade their apothecary as much as they want.

Now here you're just plain wrong. In the model, Narthecium takes one complete hand. I'm not sure do BT get Apothecaries in Terminator armour, but C:GK Apothecary can only have Narthecium and either NFW or Brotherhood Banner.

Now, in C:SM Apothecary has both Chainsword and Bolter or bolt pistol, though as far as game mechanics goes, there is no difference between having bolter and bolter+chainsword.

I'm just plain wrong? Alright, fine let's go through it all.

This topic is about PA apothecaries. GK termies and sword brethren aren't applicable to the topic. C:SM, C: DA (4th), C:BA & C:BT all have a narthecium as an additional piece of wargear. The wargear of a C:SM apothecary says: "An apothecary also has a narthecium". The narthecium is attached to the wrist, the GW model's hand is completely empty. And the GW chainsword apothecary model appears to have a gun holster on his waist. A vanilla apothecary needs to have either a bolter or a bolt pistol somewhere on his model, otherwise you're not following WYSIWYG.

It's very clear the C:SM apothecary can have 2 weapons and a narthecium, same goes for all other current codexes as well as the previous DA codex. CA (6th) specifically tells you to sacrifice a weapon to gain a narthecium. My original point is: Why did they decide to change it?

And did you say there's no functional difference between having a Boltgun + CCW and having a pistol + CCW? Really?

tl;dr - RAW they can't, but RAI I don't understand why they shouldn't be able to, so I would let people I play with do it.