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Hey guys,
at the moment I have a normal crimson fist armour just using the standard plastic marines with beaky helmuts and battle damaged up marines.
I am in the process of building my 2nd contemptor and love them.
What other pre-heresy stuff would they have?
I have been looking all over for crimson fist stuff but it is sooooooo rare.

Like what be the fluff wise for mk2-6 armour?
Which land raiders?
cataphract terminators?

What rareity would they be to the crimson fists?
I really like the ''rynns world book'' so been basing my ideas for captains and heroes on that.
I know the lexicun linke but any other imformation would be awesome.
thanks guys
SPUD

well they werent around pre-heresy, they are a 2nd founding chapter. Honestly i dont know how much old old stuff they have, most of their relics and important things got blown up with their fortress monastary.

As Bob said they aren't pre-heresy, they are a 2nd-founding chapter, aka they shouldn't have much pre-heresy anything. Especially seeing as the majority of their stuff was destroyed.

So what by the latest armour sets?

As said above:
Little to no pre-heresy wargear to start with, and even less would have survived the events on Rhynn's World (basically just the arrow of Dorn, which even then im not sure is pre-heresy). So no Contemptors....sorry.
Any versions of armour would be fine at this stage, with the rebuilding i would imagine they would take/use any armour they can get their hands on. However, it isnt a huge leap of faith to imagine that they would have a prevalence of later Mks due to their being re-supplied.
Any Land Raiders...? They are all pretty much available to anyone at this point AFAIK...
i dont even know what cataphract terminators are (assuming FW) so no idea, my reflex answer would be no, as they had very very little survive the Rhynn's World catastrophe.

What rarity would what be? It is a huge struggle to read your post spud, sorry.
Basing the heroes and whatnot off of Rhynn's World is a good bet, as they are the current heroes for the Crimson Fists (however, bear in mind that Alessio Cortez has since disappeared into the Webway...), so Pedro Kantor is the current Chapter Master (but basically all the other senior CFs were killed, so he is the only one left really).

 spudkins wrote:
So what by the latest armour sets?

What does that even mean?

ok I mean whats set of armour would be ok to use from forgeworld?

How rare is items/vehcles/armour sets for the crimson fists?

FW the company i assume you mean, as opposed to a forgewrold?

In that case, very little i would assume. I may be wrong of course, so dont take this as gospel, but FW tend to make the rarer kits, the relics passed down through the ages. While it is possible the Crimson Fists had these, they would all (or so nearly to as make no difference) have been destroyed when the Chapter-Fortress went up....

Thats kind of the idea of the story, they have nothing left, none of their history, none of their equipment, hardly any of their battle brothers (there are approximately 50 of them left by the end of the novel), basically none of their command structure or support (Apothecaries, Librarians etc.), and are left scraping the barrel of existance with a whole world still left to defend...so no, they dont have anything left apart from what the marines who are alive at the end are wearing (so varying marks of PA, 10 or so TDA suits, some heavy weapons, Kantor's gear...)

Sorry, but IMO they wouldnt have anything from FW left anymore.

In terms of generic Vehicles or wargear, they have been re-supplied to an extent, but from what i can remember, they were actually denied by the AdMech and High Lords of Terra to have any more of their geneseed stocks released to help them recover, so i wouldnt imagine that they would be refitted with the best equipment available (after all, whats the point in the AdMech wasting equipment on them when the Chapter is going to die anyway ), but they would have some. Nothing that is already rare though, and what they do have would be closely guarded to keep it from being destroyed.

Yes the Crimson Fists are a chapter in rebuilding. So if you want to have any army that fits fluff-wise you should have a couple very grizzled and battle-damaged veterans. These guys have seen some s**t. They have been around, but not since pre-heresy of course. So a couple of the more modern mk armors. maybe a couple terminators.

You would also want to have a lot of scouts. These are the new recruits who haven't quite proven themselves to be marines yet. You probably wouldn't have many dreadnoughts. Or you could have one brand-new looking dread. a survivor of Rynn.

But yeah I would say very little vehicles. Lots of new recruits led by some old, angry vets.

They're a second founding chapter so they were present when the assets of Imperial Fists legion were divided. This means that they originally probably had plenty of pre-heresy equipment. Of course, a lot of that would have been lost with their fortress monastery, only the gear carried by the remaining marines or their fleet (they had a fleet right?) would have survived. This means that now that they've rebuilt somewhat, most of the gear would be new. However, it seems perfectly okay to me to include a small numbers of older armours, cherished relics that were worn by the defenders of Rynn's World. Also, if there were any surviving dreadnoughts, there is no reason they could not have been Contemptors.

 Crimson wrote:
They're a second founding chapter so they were present when the assets of Imperial Fists legion were divided. This means that they originally probably had plenty of pre-heresy equipment. Of course, a lot of that would have been lost with their fortress monastery, only the gear carried by the remaining marines or their fleet (they had a fleet right?) would have survived. This means that now that they've rebuilt somewhat, most of the gear would be new. However, it seems perfectly okay to me to include a small numbers of older armours, cherished relics that were worn by the defenders of Rynn's World. Also, if there were any surviving dreadnoughts, there is no reason they could not have been Contemptors.

Well if they received pre-heresy equipment, would they have received a pre-heresy dreadnought? I would think that if a dreadnought was an imperial fist, and he was honored enough to be interred in a dreadnought with that chapter, that he would probably stay with the imperial fists.

Although perhaps he followed a general. He was more loyal to the person than the chapter. I just think that a contemplator dread for a second founding chapter would seem very rare! which makes it cooler if you have one in your list and you have a story behind it.

Icculus wrote:


Well if they received pre-heresy equipment, would they have received a pre-heresy dreadnought? I would think that if a dreadnought was an imperial fist, and he was honored enough to be interred in a dreadnought with that chapter, that he would probably stay with the imperial fists.

Although perhaps he followed a general. He was more loyal to the person than the chapter. I just think that a contemplator dread for a second founding chapter would seem very rare! which makes it cooler if you have one in your list and you have a story behind it.

I don't think it would be that rare. If, say, third company of Imperial Fists legion became Crimson Fists chapter, then dreadnoughts that belonged to that company would become Crimson Fists dreadnoughts.

 JohnnoM wrote:
As Bob said they aren't pre-heresy, they are a 2nd-founding chapter, aka they shouldn't have much pre-heresy anything. Especially seeing as the majority of their stuff was destroyed.

This isn't really true, while the Crimson Fists are a second founding chapter, all the chapter's original members were originally Imperial Fists. Under the edict of the codex assets were divided between the created chapters (although the chapter that maintained the Legion name and world got to keep the best equipment). Before the battle of Ryann's World it is likely that the CF had access to pre-heresy tech, after the fortress' destruction most of the relics would have been destroyied.

To the OP: having a working contemptor patern dreadnaught would be very unlikely after the accident, however it could be said that due to their sturdiness it was possible for the remaining techmarines to reclaim working parts from the remains of the few contemptors they had. Although it is very unlikely that the techmarines would be doing this as they have a fortress and standard armoury to rebuild.

In the horus heresy series, the book Shadows of Treachery, I believe the opening story is called "Crimson Fist". It is not stated in the story, but I think it implies that the company in the story is about or is going to be the formation of the Crimson Fists. There is some info on the company, but mostly it focuses on void war with the Iron Warriors in the battle of Phall. Its not a bad read, but if you get the book, the short story Prince of Crows is worth the money.

Thanks for all this great feedback its awesome.
After the whole rynns world battle they were 218 crimson fists left.
''The Crimson Fists embrace the Codex Astartes readily, and are probably the most traditional among the sons of Rogal Dorn, and receive training of all aspects of combat as written by Roboute Guilliman. There are a few minor deviances; such as the first company being known as the Crusade Company, a tradition started after the Crusade of Righteous Liberation left the Crimson Fists with no more than 128 survivors. The 1st company has been kept at 128 marines since, with the master of the Crusade Company always being the Chapter Master as well. It is considered a bad omen to march to battle with less than a full veteran company.'' So My sterngaurd and vet sergeants could all be 1st company marines. Which Mk sets though would they wear? mk2,3,4?

Whatever mark you like best. There is NO fluff that says Crimson Fists 1st company were MKx, MKy, or MKz.

Do your thing, man.

It's possible for the Crimson Fists to have anything left, really. What if a Contemptor was away with a strike force that didn't make it back in time for Rynn's World? An Achilles Pattern built for them by a Forge World they saved? They could retrieve equipment from the Heresy Era from a floating space hulk!

Loot the armory of a renegade chapter!

It's your army. You can make a few things up to explain anything you want.

There were atleast 5-6 dreadnoughts surviving Rynn's World. I'll check for a page number later but there all that was left behind when the rest went underground to the space port. Nothing says one or two weren't contemptor dreads.

As far as other relics, they simply be gifts from the other chapters. The Tournament would be a great place for it and the other sons of Dorn would gladly pay homage to get them back in the fight.

Here are a few bits and pieces of fluff from GW's Index Astartes articles that they used to publish in White Dwarf. Enjoy!

I like the idea that there is no end to the equipment they could have scavenged in the years since, from battlefields, lost treasures, or space hulks.

 spudkins wrote:
After the whole rynns world battle they were 218 crimson fists left.
''The Crimson Fists embrace the Codex Astartes readily, and are probably the most traditional among the sons of Rogal Dorn, and receive training of all aspects of combat as written by Roboute Guilliman. There are a few minor deviances; such as the first company being known as the Crusade Company, a tradition started after the Crusade of Righteous Liberation left the Crimson Fists with no more than 128 survivors. The 1st company has been kept at 128 marines since, with the master of the Crusade Company always being the Chapter Master as well. It is considered a bad omen to march to battle with less than a full veteran company.''

The Crusade of Righteous Liberation was a 300 year crusade that took place four millenia before the Crimson Fists were granted dominion over Rynn's World.

You can pretty much justify whatever armour you want really. For starters MkIII is a proto-Terminator suit still used by many modern chapters for boarding actions, its a fair bet such suits would be kept aboard ship rather than in the fortress monastery and therefor would have survived. Now Crimson Fists have pretty much always been shown in MkVI & VII armour suggesting a preference for it (Chapters produce their own armour, they make the mark(s) they want) as a 2nd Founding Chapter they would originally have had a 'fair sprinkling' (to quote WD128) of older types - now if they had a preference for for MkVI & VII they maybe phased out the older suits fairly quickly.. in which case what did they do with them? Bearing in mind they didn't settled Rynn's World until M40 its always possible they are a fair few suits sitting mothballed aboard the fleets vessels.

As noted above, you don't need to model the chapter after the Rynns world cataclysm. You've got 10, 000 years of time between the founding of the chapter and the accident, most of which they could be using all kinds of things from their original Imperial Fists cache.

Alternatively set your force some time after the accident and say that they got a selection of older kit donated by other chapters to help them rebuild and managed to salvage relics from the wreckage of the fortress, or after going on archeotech crusades.

I think it would make for an attractive army to have some older suits of armour that are in a fair bit of disrepair for the veteran marines (SerQuintus has a good point about mk3 armour being useful relics from the chapter's crusading past), with new tac tical marines making use of more modern suits.

I would imagine there might be fewer Dreadnoughts than before, but I see no reason to believe you couldn't field a Contemptor, since it has been pointed out that it could be a relic from the dismantling of the Imperial Fists Legion. It could just as easily been on the Crimson Fist's battle barge as their fortress monastery.

I would also believe that you could field quite a few Rhino and Predator vehicles, as it would probably be quicker and easier to resume production of these vehicles than the more specialist marine vehicles, and Predators fit into different battlefield roles more easily than Whirlwinds and Vindicators. Their background suggests they retained quite a few Tech-marines from their surviving fleet assets, so after the construction of basic weapon, armour and ammunition manufacturing facilities, they would move on to the more multi-role vehicle production. Thinking about it, I would expect Razorbacks would be a valuable vehicle to produce, since it would allow small groups of marines to mobilise quickly and the limited number of marines would be backed up by mechanised firepower. Since the Crimson Fists can't afford to lose individual marines, keeping them at arm's length from the enemy and augmenting their firepower using vehicles would be a safer bet.

As previously mentioned, post-Rynn themed armies would look good with a few scout squads assisting their power armoured brethren. Their battlefield role also fits the more guerrilla-style fighting the Fists are said to have adopted.

This thread has actually given me some ideas to reform my old Crimson Fists army to reflect post-Rynn restructuring.

What is the general opinion about the Crimson Fists using reconsecrated traitor armour/ vehicles? Would they refuse to use potentially tainted wargear, or would they find themselves unable to resist looting equipment they are not yet able to reproduce?

I know they would defo resist using tainted armour.
Thank you to everyone that has helped and hope for you to follow my blog and up coming marines.
If there any more info please pop it below.
Peace

Its funny to say that Crimson Fists shouldn't necessarily have "this" or "that" from the Heresy era, which is true enough that they hadn't been founded yet, but what about Rogue Trader? They were pretty much the first Space Marines so, I say take what you want haha

T-

The crimson fist horus heresy story shows us the fists were indeed around "during" the heresy, possibly not in the official way that the flesh tearers were, in my mind the survivors of the phall massacre were the beginning of the fists and those that survived to the end of the heresy were used to found the official crimson fist chapter.

They would indeed have pre-heresy equipment, as they rebuild as a chapter then the mechanincus would supply them with more modern equipment, whilst other chapters that have aided them rebuild would donate equipment to them, the dark angels have aided the fists aswell.

Considering they're rebuilding their chapter, i'd say just get the most recent armor released in 40k because they're more likely to get the recent mark 7s as opposed to the older models as replacement by the mechanicus

Ok at the moment I have MK6 as myy sternguard so Now I might put in http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/LEGION_MKIV_TACTICAL_SQUAD.html as my normal marines and maybe :
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-and-Accessories/MK-III-IRON-ARMOUR.html
As my sternguard.
I have cortez,pedro and use lysander to run a unit of terminaotors.

They mostly have newer armor MK 6 - MK 7 seems to be the most common mark they use. As for Cataphract Armor and Contemptors they were not given any by the Imperial Fists. The Crimson Fists were made of the Imperial Fists newest recruits and therefore never attained the right to use such Relics. The Imperial Fists split the Reliquary with the Black Templar's as they contained many of the Fists more experienced veterans.
Very few Important Relics were given to the Crimson Fists. There armory would contain newer war-gear and a few aging Thunderhawks that survived the assault on Rynn's World. I hope this helps.

where is this information?
Peace

 spudkins wrote:
where is this information?
Peace

Black library books the Lexicanum website.

Its all from the Imperial Fists history and canon. I know little of the Crimson Fists history.