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I find that my Lysander wins a little over 60% of his duels against Abbadon but there always close when he wins. But when Abby wins they are usually blowouts. I attribute Lysanders wins to his S10 MC thunderhammer, EW, and 3+ invulnerable saves.

I didn't mean Addadon. I meant loyalist marine HQs. Dante comes in at 225 and can't hold any of these guys' jockstraps.

* Edit *
Will correct later

Swarmlord is treated as an IC if he's with his "Guard" since Abby normally roles with his "Body Gurads" I'd say its safe to say its even.

I've done this fight with a friend close to 50 times I'm sure, its a toss up with Abby having an advantage with his St8. However the moment you take into account Biomancy Swarmlord really shines.

Swarmlord can take tyrant guard however, which is sort of like sticking him in a squad. Therefore most people lump him into these type of deathmatches.

Of course xenos have better ICs. Most xeno HQs have high WS, high A, high I high wounds, a good inv save or multiple of those. They rarely have good armor and inv saves however and most xeno HQs that are dedicated to combat dont have great support functions.

Maybe a company master/ Interrigator chaplain with the mace of redemption and pistol?

Well my win/lose record with Lysander against Abbadon does not care about your math. My record just cares that in my games Lysander kills Abby a little over 60% of the time. Out of 39 duels Lysander has killed Abby 24 times which is about 62% give or take a hundredth or two.

Yeah, but I think the point is that its YOUR record.

I'm not 100% sold on the mathhammer on Abby vs MSS Lord. How exactly do MSS interact with daemon weapons, multiple CCWs, and choice of which weapon to use?

Regardless, however, my advice on dealing with Abbadon remains the same as it did when I originally did this kind of analysis a while back.

Creeperman wrote:
Moral of the story: Avoid CC with Abbadon. Shoot him in the face instead until the twitching stops.

I know i simply said in my experience Lysander usually wins then someone had to go all Mathhammer on me.

Yes, Abaddon on average takes most IC's lunch money and eats it. I'd like to continue from that and ask: what good ways are there to run abaddon to ensure that he gets to take the enemy's lunch money?

We already know that, barring bad daemon weapon luck or repeated MSS fails, he will crunch through most anything. So how can we put him to work for CSM?

I'm not that big of a fan of the Chaos Chosen he unlocks, or at least the minimum Chosen with maximum special weapons spam in Rhinos that some people have tried to put together for Abaddon. CSM don't have the drop pods to do a Pedro Sternguard list, which is probably one of the better uses for veteran equivalents. I'd guess running a few units of chosen, supplemented by cultists and regular CSM would be more recommended, but nothing sticks out above the rest.

In addition, how should we get him into combat? He's got a huge target on his head, and is less survivable than Lysander against a bunch of plasma shots. Do we do what we do with Kharn/Typhus. and put him with a large unit of Cultists/Zombies and use them as meat shields? Deep Strike him? Knowing that Chaos has probably the best duelist HQ outside of a MSS Overlord or Destroyer Lord, how can we use him to fortify Chaos armies?

The swarmlord with Ironarm and that one power that speeds him up kills Abaddon every single time. Sure he only goes super saiyan in one out of a hundred games, but when he does I think he can handle anything in the game in melee, Bio-titans included. I've seriously tried it, Swarmy can kill a Hierophant bio-titan before it can even get a chance to hurt him when he hulks out on Biomancy. I've actually tried and found that a Hulked out swarmy can kill each of the forgeworld greater daemon lords in succession in short order.

MSS allows the necron player to choose the weapon that the affected model must use. It also allows the necron player to activate/use any other cc abilities that the affected character has.

This means that if abaddon fails the 3d6 leadership test for MSS he will hit himself with the demon weapon or the talon. The necron player chooses.

Castellan Crowe.

Purifying Flame goes off on LD10, rending wound on a 4+, WS8, I6 d3 4+ rending attacks at initiative.

I'd love to see the math on Crowe, but I bet he eats it in 2 rounds- or less.

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Castellan Crowe.

Purifying Flame goes off on LD10, rending wound on a 4+, WS8, I6 d3 4+ rending attacks at initiative.

Actually, Rapier strike goes off at I10.

 BarBoBot wrote:
MSS allows the necron player to choose the weapon that the affected model must use. It also allows the necron player to activate/use any other cc abilities that the affected character has.

This means that if abaddon fails the 3d6 leadership test for MSS he will hit himself with the demon weapon or the talon. The necron player chooses.

To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face.

As mentioned, its give and take. The necron lord can't cut through a squad of MEQ worth a damn. To make matters worse, they can break, rally, then shoot the lord in the face.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Lysander:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
Lysander wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Abbadon has a 2+ save = 16.66% chance to get through, and
Lysander has a master crafted weapon, letting him reroll one attack

75.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 1 attacks = 0.10, plus
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 2 attacks = 0.14 equals ~.72 unsaved wounds
Abbadon will die on round 6 of the assault.

Odds are really good that Lysander will die. Abbadon will need to bite himself 2-3 times to die.

Why is abbadon getting a 2+ save here? Is Lysander's th not ap2?

 Dok wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Lysander:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
Lysander wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Abbadon has a 2+ save = 16.66% chance to get through, and
Lysander has a master crafted weapon, letting him reroll one attack

75.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 1 attacks = 0.10, plus
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 2 attacks = 0.14 equals ~.72 unsaved wounds
Abbadon will die on round 6 of the assault.

Odds are really good that Lysander will die. Abbadon will need to bite himself 2-3 times to die.

Why is abbadon getting a 2+ save here? Is Lysander's th not ap2?

Yes the Fist of Dorn is AP2

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Castellan Crowe.

Purifying Flame goes off on LD10, rending wound on a 4+, WS8, I6 d3 4+ rending attacks at initiative.

Ill mathahmmer it out later for you.

The biggest problem Crowe has is the lack of durability. With only 2 wounds an a 4++ save, Drach'nyen will chew him up very quickly.

 McNinja wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Castellan Crowe.

Purifying Flame goes off on LD10, rending wound on a 4+, WS8, I6 d3 4+ rending attacks at initiative.

Actually, Rapier strike goes off at I10.

Well that's remarkable.

 Dok wrote:
Why is abbadon getting a 2+ save here? Is Lysander's th not ap2?

Thanks for catching that. Lysander will do .73 wounds a turn, or kill abbadon on round 6

CSM Daemon Prince of whatever with the black mace.

Oh wait, does he count as he is not an IC?

Could you run the numbers with Dante?
Abaddon is going to show up with -1 WS, -1 Init, -1 Attack, and -1 Wound; thanks to Dante's Death Mask.
He's also going to force the Ld test or fight at WS1.

Abbaddon can ID him with the S8 and Dante only gets his 4++ against that. But should he survive, can he do abbaddon in?

If you factor in the no scatter deep strike and 5-6 AP2/AP1 shots that they take before the combat, and you've got something that abbaddon should worry about.

If nothing else, it plays out just like Horus. The Blood Angel faces him first, weakens hims, then dies, just in time from some better guy to off him and take all the credit.

Dante and Friends, should they survive, can opt to hit and run.

 labmouse42 wrote:
To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face

Actually, no. Its just the D3, confirmed by the FAQ:
Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.

If they could, they'd cost twice the price.

Crowe is not an IC either. Neither is Sanguinor (is his sword AP2?).

 IHateNids wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face

Actually, no. Its just the D3, confirmed by the FAQ:
Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.

If they could, they'd cost twice the price.

Hmmm....

I will need to redo the Necron Lord numbers then. That's a lot less self-damage to abbadon then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WangoFett wrote:
CSM Daemon Prince of whatever with the black mace.

Oh wait, does he count as he is not an IC?

The CSM DP with the black mace will get Abbadon on average.
The challange he has is that its not an IC and will get shot at before he gets there.

 Red Viper wrote:
Crowe is not an IC either.

Details.

He's a character.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face

Actually, no. Its just the D3, confirmed by the FAQ:
Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.

If they could, they'd cost twice the price.

Hmmm....

I will need to redo the Necron Lord numbers then. That's a lot less self-damage to abbadon then.

Aye, but they are still quite good. but, as someomne mentioned, a TessLab will be his undoing.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Red Viper wrote:
Crowe is not an IC either.

Details.

He's a character.

What?

He's not an IC though (unless they errata'd it), which is what this thread is about.