Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

pantofful wrote:
Llylith is a decent matchup.

she will attacke first,
roughly ~ 5 hits
roughly ~ 4 wounds, with no armor save.

it comes down to who makes their invlunerable saves (hers is a 3+).

Umm, S3 vs T5 doesn't roughly equate 5 hits into 4 wounds.

sorry, was going off the top of my head, thought she had poison/special wounding rolls...

if not, she would then need 2 rounds to kill him, so get lucky with her own invul save.

Is she EW?

If she is, she'll kill him on assault 2 and have ~2.<ridiculouslylongdecimal> wounds left.

She is not eternal warrior.

Well, then, you are likely to be killed as soon as abaddon TalonSlaps you if you are an unlucky fella

She also only wounds on a 6.

Canuckish wrote:
It has already been said, but it bears repeating.

Old Zogwort, will solo Abbadon... that old cook is an IC Squiging Machine., then the duel is a job after

I once played against Zogwort. My necron D-lord survived 4 turns of Zogwort trying to squigify him, even surviving after Zogwort rolled 6's twice! Lol.

I must admit though that is one nasty power.

I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?

Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++

 EmilCrane wrote:
I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?

Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++

Abaddon will still have the advantage with higher WS, higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.

 jy2 wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?

Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++

Abaddon will still have the advantage with higher WS, higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.

Grimnar can give himself Preferred Enemy, and they both hit on 3's (one of those space wolf special items)

ok just to make it more ridiculous and whatnot, how would a Daemon Prince with Murder Sword do?

Actually they are pretty close to each other damage-wise.

 EmilCrane wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?

Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++

Abaddon will still have the advantage with higher WS, higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.

Grimnar can give himself Preferred Enemy, and they both hit on 3's (one of those space wolf special items)

Ok....Abaddon should still win that battle with higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


Here's something that will beat Abaddon.


A Fortuned Vect in a Dark Harliestar build.

For his points a preheresy Legion Praetor wouldn't be a bad matchup, only problem is the praetor is not EW.

With digital lasers, a master crafted Paragon Blade (which is not unwieldy but is +1 Str and Ap2) he would have 5 attacks, 6 on the charge. Add in an iron Halo and he is a bargain for 180pts. Oh an against non EW ICs the paragon blade can instagib on a 6

A Fortuned Vect in a Dark Harliestar build.

Are you sure? Vect can't pen Abbadons 2+ save, I'd imagine Vect would fail a single 2++, even with fortune, before He could chew through all of Abbys wounds.

Unless I'm missing something here.

 Sasori wrote:

A Fortuned Vect in a Dark Harliestar build.

Are you sure? Vect can't pen Abbadons 2+ save, I'd imagine Vect would fail a single 2++, even with fortune, before He could chew through all of Abbys wounds.

Unless I'm missing something here.

Good point. Forgot he was AP3. In that case, most likely they'll be stuck in combat for a long time....at least until the Harliestar hit-&-runs out of there.

Azrael could... as long as he is hiding behind 50 guardsmen to give them all 4++ and Fearless.

If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though.

I know he's not an IC, but it's still an interesting matchup.




And Lukas the Trickster will get ruined by Abbadon, but he's tricky like that.

hmm how would shas'O R'alai go against him just kiting him around?

and does the Mephiston fight include biomancy rolls?

 Ninjacommando wrote:
hmm how would shas'O R'alai go against him just kiting him around?

and does the Mephiston fight include biomancy rolls?

He'd still have nothing to penetrate Abaddon's AP2, and Biomancy could get you Ironarm or it could get you Leech Life, which is useless for a fight against Abaddon in close combat.

Mephiston is also not an independent character.

Great post labmouse,

He's expensive but his points are worth it when used correctly.
His ability to give friendly units within 12 Preffered enemy (space marine) is potent, it makes even a cultist a threat in CC.
I've seen SM armies be teared a new one from this ability alone.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
hmm how would shas'O R'alai go against him just kiting him around?

and does the Mephiston fight include biomancy rolls?

If we are including shooting him to death at range, there'd be a lot more guys on the list.
Samael on his bike would kill him quite easily while leaving Abby in the dust for example.

pantofful wrote:
Llylith is a decent matchup.

she will attacke first,
roughly ~ 5 hits
roughly ~ 4 wounds, with no armor save.

it comes down to who makes their invlunerable saves (hers is a 3+).

how does she get 4 wounds, she is str3(4 on the charge if she has a ton of pain tokens)

already went through that, Pantofful thought she had a 2+ poison weapon

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:
St. Celestine.
/thread

This. No matter how many times Abaddon beats her down, eventually, she'll get lucky and take him down.

In a real game it'll never happen, sure, but if we're going to act like raw, one-on-one combat potential is what makes an HQ, then clearly we're working in a combat vacuum. And in a combat vacuum time is no factor, so that makes Celestine the best HQ in the game, since only one HQ can kill her for good (Zogwort), and only a handful can't be killed by her (Bjorn, and maybe a couple other vehicles).

By the same metric and logic, Justicar Thawn must be the best Troops unit in the game. In fact, he must be even better than Celestine, because he can't be squigged by Zogwort!

Or, we can accept that maybe, just maybe, we should focus on the actual capability of the unit to contribute in a real game, in which case, combat potential is but one of several factors dictating the usefulness of a unit. In fact, I would argue that combat potential is one of the least important things about an HQ. There are many ways to get hard-hitting units. There are comparably few ways to get the support and force-multiplication capabilities that the truly good HQs offer.

Dose this mean a Necron Overlord with 2+/3++/4+++ from a Res Orb, MSS and Phaeron in a Blob backed by an arc is the best HQ in the game, for making that blob relentless, andgiving it 4+ res, and just being generally epic.

 IHateNids wrote:
Dose this mean a Necron Overlord with 2+/3++/4+++ from a Res Orb, MSS and Phaeron in a Blob backed by an arc is the best HQ in the game, for making that blob relentless, andgiving it 4+ res, and just being generally epic.

I don't think giving a blob relentless actually does anything.

to be fair, you are probably right. However, I imagine it is still a force multiplier, considerring it is an option.

I ran the calculator with my GK librarian with precognition and warding staff vs abby and indeed, abby will win according to the calc.

Abby wins after 11.9 rounds with the talon and claw will take like 17.357 rounds apparently (not sure if I'm doing the daemon weapon right here but anyone in their right mind would be using the talon anyway so it's a moot point)

It'll take me 25.92 rounds to kill abby.

on the flip side, I can probably add in abby will likely fail his leadership roughly 50% of the time with Ld 10 vs 3d6 on the brain mines so that should almost double the number of rounds it will take him to kill. So it'll end up being some crazy 23.8 rounds of combat to beat down the libraraian. I'll proabably have to deduct a few rounds just for failing the psychic tests so probably closer to 19-20 rounds on average.

Ya, game would be long over even if they got into it by turn 1.

So Bring it Abby! It'll be past the parent teacher meeting before you get my lunch money wmahahahahaha.

 EmilCrane wrote:
I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?

Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++

Abbadon Vs Logan Grimnar
Logan has one of the key elements to be a nasty IC - he has a 2+ save and a power fist. Logan has EW, 5 attacks, perferred enemy, 4++ with the Belt of Russ. Logan also always hits on 3s, due to the wolftooth necklace. Logan will pop his ability "Living Legend" on the turn he is assaulted to ensure he gets that extra attack, so he will have 7 attacks on the first round!

Since the "Talon of Horus" will not insta-kill and he will get his 2+. Drach'nyen will used to force Logan to his 4++ save. In this case Abbadon will want to rely upon Drach'nyen to do double the normal damage output.

Logan wil need to use "The Axe Morkai" in power fist mode. He cannot afford to give a 2+ save against his attacks.


Abbadon using "Drach'nyen":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 77.77% chance to hit (with perferred enemy)
S 5 vs. T4 = 77.77% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Logan has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
Abbadon hits 83.33% of the time on the first round of assault due to hatred.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.

55.00% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.25, plus
83.33% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.49, plus
83.33% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.54, plus
83.33% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.59, plus
83.33% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 0.64, plus
83.33% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 13 attacks × 16.67% = 0.70 equals ~3.22 unsaved wounds first turn.

38.90% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 5 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.13, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.35, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 8 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.40, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.45, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.50, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.55 equals ~2.39 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Logan will die on round 1 before he can even swing his unwieldy weapon.


Logan:
WolfTooth Necklace = 77.77% chance to hit (with perferred enemy)
S 8 vs. T5 = 86.33% chance to wound (increased to 97.22% with perferred enemy),
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and

77.77% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 7 attacks = ~2.19 unsaved wounds first turn.
77.77% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 2 attacks = ~1.56 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Abbadon will die on round 3 of the assault.


Results
Logan has an suprising amount of damage output. He will kill Abbadon on turn 3 on average dice rolls.

The problem Logan has is that he likely won't live to see round 3. On average dice rolls Abbadon will kill Logan before Logan can swing!

How is this possible? Logan's biggest weakness is that he has only 3 wounds and a 4++ save. Having 1 less wound than Abbadon means he dies 25% faster. While he has a ton of attacks, he does not match Abbadon's raw damage output.

Oh yes, and Logan costs 10 more points than Abbadon....