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HQ: Daemon Prince
1 Daemon Prince (HQ) [Chaos], 350 pts = (Power Armour + Wings + Increase Mastery Level x3 + Daemon of Tzeentch+ Gift of Mutation)
1 The Black Mace [Chaos]

He has a 3+ armor and a 5+ invul save and re-rolls failed saves of 1. I roll one spell on tzeentch and then roll the remaining two spells on biomancy in an attempt to get one of the juicy spells (Iron arm, Endurance, enfeeble, Life Leech). I gave him the gift of mutation to try for a lottery chance of getting one of the boons that can boost him even further (2+ armor, FnP, + 1 Toughness, EW, +1 W, just to name a few). The plan is to have this guy in combat no later then turn 2. I fly up turn one and if need be keep him concealed some. It all comes down to the amount of low ap weapons my opponents have because with the a 2 as the only roll that the daemon fails a save on it makes him pretty survivable(obviously a re-roll still fails on 1 & 2 though). Plus the black mace can pretty much single handedly bring down a hoard. So my question.... Is he worth 350pts?

If it were me, I'd strip the psychic powers, considering you're taking the black mace, with wings etc trying to get him into close combat.

Then I'd say yes, worth it.

 FredTheEvilKitteh wrote:
If it were me, I'd strip the psychic powers, considering you're taking the black mace, with wings etc trying to get him into close combat.

Then I'd say yes, worth it.

I'd take the opposite approach, I had to deal with the SwarmLord and Mortarion in my local meta and went with a very similar approach to handle it. Across several games my DP dominated the Swarmlord (4-0) and against Mortarion he won outright once and in both the other cases left the DeathGuard primarch weak enough for other forces to effectively handle. Without Biomancy, I don't think it would have done nearly as well. If you're needing to break up some DeathStars in a box, Biomancy, Black Mace, and a DP are a very effective (and very expensive) way to do it. I see the CSM codex as saving enough on spawn, bikes, and Lords for the points to balance out in the end.

Keep the psychic powers. You can give him eternal warrior, or even more attacks and initiative, depending on what you roll on Biomancy.

The problem is C:CSM Daemon Princes in general. They are overpriced and easy to kill. The ones from the Daemons codex take up a Heavy Support slot, but are cheaper, have eternal warrior by default, and have access to a huge plethora of useful upgrades.

 FredTheEvilKitteh wrote:
If it were me, I'd strip the psychic powers, considering you're taking the black mace, with wings etc trying to get him into close combat.

Then I'd say yes, worth it.

The biomancy table is built for a combat oriented psyker or at least it is built to help keep the psyker alive. 4 of the 6 results on that table are very useful. I could take him without the powers but then he would still have some of the issues he currently has. I guess the big question is having a level 3 psyker worth 75pts?

Remember you only get 2rolls because one must be on tzeentch, I would got with that demon priest and Ahriman and buff the gak out of the demon prince

Here is what I have found in my of my games with a DP.

1) They bring a ton of nastyness to a battle. They will mow through nearly any squad they get in touch with.

2) If you go first, their likely to get into at least one assault. Enemy flyers don't come in till the bottom of 2, and if your not in assault at the top of 2, then your doing something wrong.

3) You need to challange that first round you assaulted. Its critical that you don't wipe that squad out or force them to run on the turn you assaulted! If you did, they will fall back and then their entire army will shoot you in the face.

4) Kill the enemy squad during your turn, then assault a new squad.

5) Sometimes they die to overwatch. It sucks. Its hard. Its a fact of life.

6) They don't have gernades!!! I had one assault my 10 man PM squad this past weekend, and the PM killed the prince before he could even swing.


In theory that sounds great. In practice I've seen the prince crush one or two squads, then get shot to bits. The problem is guaranteing your going to be out of assault on your opponents turn.

This sounds like an amazing model, but the short answer is no he's not worth those points. A longer version is something like "noooo" ...

Ok seriously now:
Wings means grounded tests. If I saw he was that many points flying at anything, snap shots or not I'm going to shoot everything I can to make that guy fall.

Once he's fallen come the heavy weapons, power armour or not he's not going to like masses of heavy bolters, or plasma or lascannons.

He can be used carefully, he can avoid grounded tests for example and can always glide instead of swooping which he will do a lot naturally... He's scary so it's hard to say that he's not but I have to I'm afraid 350 is just too high.

I would consider running him in two ways for the sake of making him more efficient in terms of points.
1st, same without the mace, let his attacks do whats needed, that mace is insane but this guy can do enough as he is...

but more likely I would take it without the increased mastery level. Yeah it helps vs Swarmy, but for an all comers list it's overkill imo.

at 350 he's scary as can be but, I would focus an army's worth of fire at him. Yes that means for a turn however much firepower goes for him isn't going elsewhere... true...

But elsewhere if I focus fire I probably won't get down a 350 point unit, let alone model & I'd expect him to be a warlord half the time at that points cost so it's a nice VP also.

I'd even lock him in place & throw termies at him to keep him standing still for the game. Or on nids, I'd swarm him with poisened hormies...

 Lobukia wrote:
Across several games my DP dominated the Swarmlord (4-0)

Have you considered playing the lottery? It's much more likely to win that than have a Daemon Prince beat the Swarmlord even once.

As for the original topic. For every time your Daemon Prince kills something important (which will also have cost less than him), he's going to die to basic weapons fire.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
As for the original topic. For every time your Daemon Prince kills something important (which will also have cost less than him), he's going to die to basic weapons fire.

This is not completely true.
If you kill something during your turn the DP will be shot to bits by basic weapons.
If you kill something on your opponenets turn, the DP will consolidate, then fly into the next juicy target.

A hive tyrant with wings and two powers comes out to 260pts without any upgrades beyond the auto include TL devourers. So it isnt unreasonable to take a prince with +1 mastery level, an invul save, and an ability to re-roll half of his failed armor saves. In addition he comes with anti-hoard with the mace which always wounds on a 2+. He can have up to 12 attacks on the charge.

I don't know the new Chaos codex but I know that in Codex Deamons I could get an amazing deamon prince with a 4++ save for 100 points cheaper.

so in answer to your question - yes, he is too expensive. Frankly I think 250 stretches it for Codex Demons, another 100 points is just not worth it in the slightest.

No he is not worth it. In a 1500pt army, that means you only have 1150pts for the rest of the army. Considering the considerable costs of the other Chaos units, you are going to be hard pressed to build a balanced list that can deal with the enemy once they kill your DP. I look at it more as how well can the rest of the army function once he (the DP) is out of the picture and the answer is not too good.

 jy2 wrote:
No he is not worth it. In a 1500pt army, that means you only have 1150pts for the rest of the army. Considering the considerable costs of the other Chaos units, you are going to be hard pressed to build a balanced list that can deal with the enemy once they kill your DP. I look at it more as how well can the rest of the army function once he (the DP) is out of the picture and the answer is not too good.

I guess I should post this:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504089.page

In this list he is just purely an accessory to my build. Something I can unleash upon the enemy to by the rest of my army time to do their jobs. I suppose i could drop the mace and a mastery level that would take off 70pts...

Idk. I think a Tzeentch prince is probably better than a Nurgle Prince in close combat, since a Nurgle Prince can't sweep squads/blobs of Guardsmen or whatever else that he charges.

It depends what you are fighting against. A Tzeentch prince is probably better against AP4 weapons, where as a Nurgle is better for tanking Missiles/Lascannons

350pts is a bit steep. Maybe i'm jaded since I use Contemptors, and the thought of paying 350pts to get blown out of the sky turn one by a skyfire unit makes me a sad panda.

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
No he is not worth it. In a 1500pt army, that means you only have 1150pts for the rest of the army. Considering the considerable costs of the other Chaos units, you are going to be hard pressed to build a balanced list that can deal with the enemy once they kill your DP. I look at it more as how well can the rest of the army function once he (the DP) is out of the picture and the answer is not too good.

I guess I should post this:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504089.page

In this list he is just purely an accessory to my build. Something I can unleash upon the enemy to by the rest of my army time to do their jobs. I suppose i could drop the mace and a mastery level that would take off 70pts...

Still isn't worth it. You know how much 350pts spent on the rest of the army can get you? Also, the DP is very matchup dependent. If you play against MSU or armies with relatively cheap troops (i.e. guardsmen), you kill their troops and then what? If your combat ends on the turn you charge, that pretty much means that you've just traded you 350pt HQ for maybe a 100-pt troop unit.

For his points, I'd much rather get a sorcerer for the psychic buffs and a unit of 3 Nurgle oblits. A lot more durable, good fire support and a force multiplier with the sorcerer. You won't be missing the DP's mobility much with night scythes and wraiths.

 jy2 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
No he is not worth it. In a 1500pt army, that means you only have 1150pts for the rest of the army. Considering the considerable costs of the other Chaos units, you are going to be hard pressed to build a balanced list that can deal with the enemy once they kill your DP. I look at it more as how well can the rest of the army function once he (the DP) is out of the picture and the answer is not too good.

I guess I should post this:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504089.page

In this list he is just purely an accessory to my build. Something I can unleash upon the enemy to by the rest of my army time to do their jobs. I suppose i could drop the mace and a mastery level that would take off 70pts...

Still isn't worth it. You know how much 350pts spent on the rest of the army can get you? Also, the DP is very matchup dependent. If you play against MSU or armies with relatively cheap troops (i.e. guardsmen), you kill their troops and then what? If your combat ends on the turn you charge, that pretty much means that you've just traded you 350pt HQ for maybe a 100-pt troop unit.

For his points, I'd much rather get a sorcerer for the psychic buffs and a unit of 3 Nurgle oblits. A lot more durable, good fire support and a force multiplier with the sorcerer. You won't be missing the DP's mobility much with night scythes and wraiths.

Its not necessarily the mobility i will be missing. It is his raw killing power. I have yet to have him die on me.

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
No he is not worth it. In a 1500pt army, that means you only have 1150pts for the rest of the army. Considering the considerable costs of the other Chaos units, you are going to be hard pressed to build a balanced list that can deal with the enemy once they kill your DP. I look at it more as how well can the rest of the army function once he (the DP) is out of the picture and the answer is not too good.

I guess I should post this:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504089.page

In this list he is just purely an accessory to my build. Something I can unleash upon the enemy to by the rest of my army time to do their jobs. I suppose i could drop the mace and a mastery level that would take off 70pts...

Drop him for 2 more helldrakes or 1 more + change

 Tomb King wrote:

Its not necessarily the mobility i will be missing. It is his raw killing power. I have yet to have him die on me.

He can kill stuff, but any decent player with a balanced list can usually take care of him without too much problem.

However, what will give them problems is the rest of your army - the necrons - and the heldrake. Even after you lose your DP, the rest of your army is still good enough to win you the game.

smee wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
No he is not worth it. In a 1500pt army, that means you only have 1150pts for the rest of the army. Considering the considerable costs of the other Chaos units, you are going to be hard pressed to build a balanced list that can deal with the enemy once they kill your DP. I look at it more as how well can the rest of the army function once he (the DP) is out of the picture and the answer is not too good.

I guess I should post this:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504089.page

In this list he is just purely an accessory to my build. Something I can unleash upon the enemy to by the rest of my army time to do their jobs. I suppose i could drop the mace and a mastery level that would take off 70pts...

Drop him for 2 more helldrakes or 1 more + change

Can't. In his list, necrons are primary and chaos the allied detachment. That means only 1 FA slot available for 1 heldrake.

You can, of course, change the list to make Chaos the primary....but that would require redesigning the entire list.

Still, a CSM list with 3 heldrakes, 2 min troops and an allied contingent of D-lord + wraiths, deathmarks and 2 troops in night scythes, wraiths and 1 doomscythe makes for a very nasty list (though I think that may be over 2K).

 jy2 wrote:

Still, a CSM list with 3 heldrakes, 2 min troops and an allied contingent of D-lord + wraiths, deathmarks and 2 troops in night scythes, wraiths and 1 doomscythe makes for a very nasty list (though I think that may be over 2K).

Assuming you cut the Deathmarks (which aren't anywhere near as good as Wraiths or any of the fliers on the list) that is barely over 1500pts. If you flesh out the scoring units a bit and maybe squeeze in some long range fire support (Havocs, Oblits) then its a pretty solid 2k list. I wouldn't want to try it below 2k though since it will be seriously light on troops.

Just played this list against a dark eldar player and we called it on turn 2... he had built a poison based list to an extent. The daemon prince who was rolling around with endurance on him didnt take a wound and even took fire frome 2 ravagers, lance trueborns, and a raider and took 0 wounds. He shrugged off everything that came at him and ended the game by killing the enemy archon that was wielding a husk blade. I think I might have found my 1850 GT list.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Across several games my DP dominated the Swarmlord (4-0)

Have you considered playing the lottery? It's much more likely to win that than have a Daemon Prince beat the Swarmlord even once.
.

Really? Daemonic Weapon should give me 3 or 4 bonus attacks, I get +1 on the charge, and can attack at S10/AP2 with only dropping to 3 base attacks. So that's 7/8 attacks at WS 9. 4 should hit, and they should all wound. That's a reasonable 2-3 wounds after saves... but I can/did roll higher than 3 on my bonus attacks, if I get Iron Arm (did twice) I may not need the S10 and can keep the extra attacks for another wound. A roll of 5 or 6 on extra attacks and getting Iron Arm = a dead Swarmlord. I took a spell familiar both times to deal with Shadows in the Warp, and one of the times I didn't get Iron Arm, I got Warp Speed and that worked out to 2 extra attacks, and I dropped the Swarmlord in the fist pass. The Swarmlord has no invuln against ranged attacks and only a 3+ save. I never had to deal with a fresh foe, every time he was down 1 wound (and if you're facing 'nids, you have to know/use that). The Swarmlord only has 5 attacks, only 3 should hit, and at best 2 wound. That gives the DP 2 turns of attacks. I never had it happen, but a "6" on a toughness check kills the Swarmlord on any given turn.

Is it an economic use of points? No. Can it earn them back? Yes. Can it remove things from play that are really hard to handle with other units in the CSM codex? Very much so. This leaves your remaining points to go handle things it can/should.

 Lobukia wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Across several games my DP dominated the Swarmlord (4-0)

Have you considered playing the lottery? It's much more likely to win that than have a Daemon Prince beat the Swarmlord even once.
.

Really? Daemonic Weapon should give me 3 or 4 bonus attacks, I get +1 on the charge, and can attack at S10/AP2 with only dropping to 3 base attacks. So that's 7/8 attacks at WS 9. 4 should hit, and they should all wound. That's a reasonable 2-3 wounds after saves... but I can/did roll higher than 3 on my bonus attacks, if I get Iron Arm (did twice) I may not need the S10 and can keep the extra attacks for another wound. A roll of 5 or 6 on extra attacks and getting Iron Arm = a dead Swarmlord. I took a spell familiar both times to deal with Shadows in the Warp, and one of the times I didn't get Iron Arm, I got Warp Speed and that worked out to 2 extra attacks, and I dropped the Swarmlord in the fist pass. The Swarmlord has no invuln against ranged attacks and only a 3+ save. I never had to deal with a fresh foe, every time he was down 1 wound (and if you're facing 'nids, you have to know/use that). The Swarmlord only has 5 attacks, only 3 should hit, and at best 2 wound. That gives the DP 2 turns of attacks. I never had it happen, but a "6" on a toughness check kills the Swarmlord on any given turn.

Is it an economic use of points? No. Can it earn them back? Yes. Can it remove things from play that are really hard to handle with other units in the CSM codex? Very much so. This leaves your remaining points to go handle things it can/should.

One thing you fail to take into account is that Swarmy will have 4 powers. That means he has a much, much better chance than the DP to get Iron Arm or Warp Speed. I am not sure what the DP's initiative is (I5?) but Swarmy is I6 and his attacks causes ID if you don't get Iron Arm for the DP and they force re-rolls of successful invulns.

 jy2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Across several games my DP dominated the Swarmlord (4-0)

Have you considered playing the lottery? It's much more likely to win that than have a Daemon Prince beat the Swarmlord even once.
.

Really? Daemonic Weapon should give me 3 or 4 bonus attacks, I get +1 on the charge, and can attack at S10/AP2 with only dropping to 3 base attacks. So that's 7/8 attacks at WS 9. 4 should hit, and they should all wound. That's a reasonable 2-3 wounds after saves... but I can/did roll higher than 3 on my bonus attacks, if I get Iron Arm (did twice) I may not need the S10 and can keep the extra attacks for another wound. A roll of 5 or 6 on extra attacks and getting Iron Arm = a dead Swarmlord. I took a spell familiar both times to deal with Shadows in the Warp, and one of the times I didn't get Iron Arm, I got Warp Speed and that worked out to 2 extra attacks, and I dropped the Swarmlord in the fist pass. The Swarmlord has no invuln against ranged attacks and only a 3+ save. I never had to deal with a fresh foe, every time he was down 1 wound (and if you're facing 'nids, you have to know/use that). The Swarmlord only has 5 attacks, only 3 should hit, and at best 2 wound. That gives the DP 2 turns of attacks. I never had it happen, but a "6" on a toughness check kills the Swarmlord on any given turn.

Is it an economic use of points? No. Can it earn them back? Yes. Can it remove things from play that are really hard to handle with other units in the CSM codex? Very much so. This leaves your remaining points to go handle things it can/should.

One thing you fail to take into account is that Swarmy will have 4 powers. That means he has a much, much better chance than the DP to get Iron Arm or Warp Speed. I am not sure what the DP's initiative is (I5?) but Swarmy is I6 and his attacks causes ID if you don't get Iron Arm for the DP and they force re-rolls of successful invulns.

Daemon prince is imitative 8, ws9 S6 T5 A5

 Tomb King wrote:
Just played this list against a dark eldar player and we called it on turn 2... he had built a poison based list to an extent. The daemon prince who was rolling around with endurance on him didnt take a wound and even took fire frome 2 ravagers, lance trueborns, and a raider and took 0 wounds. He shrugged off everything that came at him and ended the game by killing the enemy archon that was wielding a husk blade. I think I might have found my 1850 GT list.

I'm not saying that your opponent was bad or anything, but he didn't really seem to know how to play against the DP.

If it were me, I'd just ignore the DP and focus on the rest of the army - namely, the wraiths and D-lord. Let the DP assault one of my units and then I shoot him down afterwards when he is most vulnerable. That's just how you play against these type of units.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomb King wrote:

Daemon prince is imitative 8, ws9 S6 T5 A5

Then Swarmy needs to stay in cover.

Anyways, depending on the psychic powers, Swarmy can still win this duel. Another good power for him to get is Invisibility. That means the opponent will be hitting him on 5's.

Just played against a list that had 3 vendetta and 3 GK stormravens. The trick to keeping the prince alive was endurance and keeping him flying to avoid the auto-perils. It was a rough game but the daemon prince was still alive in the end and the list won again. The daemon prince killed coteaz and an entire guard infantry platoon.

I can't put that many points into something that can be insta killed by a lucky lascannon shot or any st10 weapon. Honestly I don't think they are worth the points period.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I can't put that many points into something that can be insta killed by a lucky lascannon shot or any st10 weapon. Honestly I don't think they are worth the points period.

Lascannon are S9... Daemon Prince T5 at beginning of the game. If you are worried about it roll for the boon table like 5 times..... though there is a chance you become a 350pt spawn...

Enfeeble + Blackmace would be hilarious....

 Hulksmash wrote:
Enfeeble + Blackmace would be hilarious....

Pulled that on some csm the other day . Worked wonders because he was packed behind an adl.

The question is dare I make him more expensive with a spell familiar to re-roll if needed