easysauce wrote:
my favorite caliber is shot placement

 DrNo172000 wrote:


They perform very similar in terms of actual damage. So much so that many ER surgeons can not tell the difference between wounds caused by 9 say versus a 45

“May 6, 2014

FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore
Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident
Handgun stopping power is simply a myth
The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)
LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago.

Caliber, when considered alone, brings about a unique set of factors to consider such as magazine capacity for a given weapon size, ammunition availability, felt recoil, weight and cost. What is rarely discussed, but most relevant to the caliber debate is what projectile is being considered for use and its terminal performance potential.

One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option.

Understanding Handgun Caliber Terminal Ballistic Realities

Many so‐called “studies” have been performed and many analyses of statistical data have been undertaken regarding this issue. Studies simply involving shooting deaths are irrelevant since the goal of law enforcement is to stop a threat during a deadly force encounter as quickly as possible. Whether or not death occurs is of no consequence as long as the threat of death or serious injury to law enforcement personnel and innocent third parties is eliminated.

“The concept of immediate incapacitation is the only goal of any law enforcement shooting and is the underlying rationale for decisions regarding weapons, ammunition, calibers and training.”1

Studies of “stopping power” are irrelevant because no one has ever been able to define how much power, force, or kinetic energy, in and of itself, is required to effectively stop a violent and determined adversary quickly, and even the largest of handgun calibers are not capable of delivering such force. Handgun stopping power is simply a myth. Studies of so‐called “one shot stops” being used as a tool to define the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge, as opposed to another, are irrelevant due to the inability to account for psychological influences and due to the lack of reporting specific shot placement. In short, extensive studies have been done over the years to “prove” a certain cartridge is better than another by using grossly flawed methodology and or bias as a precursor to manipulating statistics. In order to have a meaningful understanding of handgun terminal ballistics, one must only deal with facts that are not in dispute within the medical community, i.e. medical realities, and those which are also generally accepted within law enforcement, i.e. tactical realities.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.

Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.

This is America dagnabit! Buy both!

All handgun calibers dont nearly perform nearly the same:



Rather, it's shot placement that will be more telling.

That said, Id prefer a 9MM over a 45ACP mostly because of capacity. Each round is a "chance" at achieving the result I want. A 9MM double stack gives me more chances than a single stack 45.

Now, if the flavors were 40S&W or 45ACP, id go with 45ACP every day, twice on Sunday. Technically the 45 has a stronger recoil, but in the real world the 45 is a heavier bullet, and it's recoil impulse is more of a push than the the snap and upwards climb of a 40 caliber pistol. Follow-up shots are more achievable firing 45ACP as opposed to 40S&W. My chances of hitting my target with the first shot are better shooting the 45 instead of the 40.

All things aside, my EDC is now a Glock 26 using Glock 17 mags. The 1911 was killing my hips by the end of the day. The 26 weighs next to nothing...

Won't +P and hollow points help mitigate against the difference in the rounds?

 Alex C wrote:
Carry a gun chambered for whatever caliber you shoot best.

Said gun should be the one you can shoot best.

There are no "correct" answers.

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.

Open carry or conceal carry?

Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Its the same in Pennsyltucky. Have you tried a 26 with finger extension? I was looking at the 19, but found a sweet deal on the 26 when bought it. It came with 2 15rd magazines instead of the factory 10. I then bought another 2 17rd mags for the range. It conceals really well in a Bianchi IWB holster. It shoots surprisingly well for a compact.

 Hordini wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

This picture is pretty meaningless unless we know what kind of bullets are being used. Is it FMJ? JHP? What is the bullet weight? What is the target made of? Paper? Cardboard? Ballistic gel?


All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.

My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.

But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.

 KiloFiX wrote:
About caliber:

The thing I like to tell folks who buy their first gun is practice, practice, practice.

Don't buy a gun and shoot like 20 rounds then keep it in the safe. It's only useful if your safe, proficient and comfortable with it.

That said, if you get something like a .45 (Long) Colt, or a 45 ACP, or a .357 Magnum or even a .40, it may not see as much range time as the ubiquitous and easy to shoot 9mm.

So I'd recommend a 9mm to anyone starting out.

 easysauce wrote:
my favorite caliber is shot placement

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Its the same in Pennsyltucky. Have you tried a 26 with finger extension? I was looking at the 19, but found a sweet deal on the 26 when bought it. It came with 2 15rd magazines instead of the factory 10. I then bought another 2 17rd mags for the range. It conceals really well in a Bianchi IWB holster. It shoots surprisingly well for a compact.

I haven't fired a weapon since getting out of the Corps (May 2012). The reason I'm going with the G19 is because my close friend is a firearms instructor and owns a modern gun-fighting business, in PA no less. The G19 is what he recommended, I trust his knowledge with full confidence.

 Alex C wrote:
G19 is awesome, my wife has one.

Be aware that many folks don't care for the grip angle.

Handle before you buy. Preferably shoot before you buy if possible. This goes for any handgun you're considering for self defense.

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.

 Ouze wrote:
Speaking for myself I don't like .40 at all. It looks pretty good on paper but man, I found it to be wholly unpleasant to shoot, very snappy.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.

My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.

But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.

Open carry or conceal carry?

Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed

Anvildude wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.

Open carry or conceal carry?

Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed

Um... You should be able to do that anywhere. It's pretty much the opposite of illegal to openly carry a weapon of any sort in any place in America, ain't it? Though some police forces might take issue with you, and there's occasionally fiddly laws about what constitutes 'concealed' someplaces- I've heard of things like holsters and sword sheaths being considered 'concealment' because people can't see the entire weapon.

 Frazzled wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.

My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.

But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.

My Beretta 92 weighs more than my 1911.

 KingCracker wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Speaking for myself I don't like .40 at all. It looks pretty good on paper but man, I found it to be wholly unpleasant to shoot, very snappy.

This many times over. I've shot many types of handgun rounds and this was by large my least enjoyable to shoot.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.

My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.

But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.

My Beretta 92 weighs more than my 1911.

Yeah 1911 is not heavy, it's just long and digs into you pretty good when you sit down. It's recoil is nothing ether - then again nether are most 9mm.

Anvildude wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.

Open carry or conceal carry?

Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed

Um... You should be able to do that anywhere. It's pretty much the opposite of illegal to openly carry a weapon of any sort in any place in America, ain't it? Though some police forces might take issue with you, and there's occasionally fiddly laws about what constitutes 'concealed' someplaces- I've heard of things like holsters and sword sheaths being considered 'concealment' because people can't see the entire weapon.

Anvildude wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I plan on purchasing a G19 sometime in fall for the personal defense.

Open carry or conceal carry?

Open until I get my concealed, I live in VA so I can open carry without permit until I get a concealed

Um... You should be able to do that anywhere. It's pretty much the opposite of illegal to openly carry a weapon of any sort in any place in America, ain't it? Though some police forces might take issue with you, and there's occasionally fiddly laws about what constitutes 'concealed' someplaces- I've heard of things like holsters and sword sheaths being considered 'concealment' because people can't see the entire weapon.

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Where in PA is he located? Whats the name of the range?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
All of the seriously negative criticism about the 9mm (low power, over penetration, etc.) is pretty much exclusively reserved for the 9mm FMJ round. Modern, defensive 9mm JHP perform excellently and I would argue that their capability as a self-defense round is just as good (if not better, due to reduced recoil and higher capacity) as any of the other common calibers.

My beef wit them (other than overpen) is that it doesn't have the right feel for me. The one's I've tried always felt too fragile. There's something reassuring about that big assed chunk of 1911 in your hands, something that says 'I will stop the target if I am needed'.

But people should go with a weapon that feels best for them. A powerful handgun isn't any good if you can't hit anything from the recoil.

My Beretta 92 weighs more than my 1911.

Yeah 1911 is not heavy, it's just long and digs into you pretty good when you sit down. It's recoil is nothing ether - then again nether are most 9mm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingCracker wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Speaking for myself I don't like .40 at all. It looks pretty good on paper but man, I found it to be wholly unpleasant to shoot, very snappy.

This many times over. I've shot many types of handgun rounds and this was by large my least enjoyable to shoot.

I thought I was a putty cat for thinking this myself - thank you for the honesty gents. I shot a glock 23 (i think that's what it was - compact .40) after 5 shots I put it down and said to my friend - "this thing hurts man - you keep it."

 DrNo172000 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

I don't own any handguns as of yet. I'd only really get them for personal defense, and living in Illinois I can't get a CCW just yet (maybe later this year they'll finally allow it), but I plan on buying a .45 ACP eventually, not sure yet exactly what brand. My supervisor owns The Judge for personal defense, and he's got me eyeing that as well. That is a nasty gun.

Out of curiosity why are you interested in getting the .45acp? Honestly all handgun calibers perform nearly the same, I'd recommend a 9mm for personal defense more rounds, less recoil.

 Spacemanvic wrote:


Get a 1911 in 9MM.

BOOM!

You're welcome

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:


Get a 1911 in 9MM.

BOOM!

You're welcome

But why would i want to waste money when I have a perfectly serviceable Remington-Rand built 1911?

If I'm going 9mm, there's only one for me.

 Alex C wrote:
Indeed.

Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.

Know the law.

 DarkLink wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Indeed.

Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.

Know the law.

But would it be for open carry, or for the erotic strutting?

 Alex C wrote:
Indeed.

Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.

Know the law.

 Alex C wrote:
Indeed.

Until recently, and contrary to popular belief, flaunting six-shooters snazzily suspended from your longhorn-buckled belt and pseudo-erotically slapping your chaps as you strut down main street in some charming, dusty Texan town would land your ass in jail.

Know the law.