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Martel732 wrote:
He is bad for me, because I like to build all comers lists. He has no place when he has to cower from any random squad with a 2+, and offers no really pskyer support at 250 pts.

Any random squad with 2+? Most of the units that he couldnt beat cost the same or greater than he does, an odd Obliterator or Broadside will not humble him even with 2+. Any non-EW IC is still likely gonna lose to him even with 2+, since 1 fail save would kill them.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I have read them but not since I heard that podcast a few days ago. I currently have 500+ pages a week to read for school, so it's hard to justify reading anything for pleasure at the moment.

Page 39, 2nd sentence I believe.

Martel732 wrote:
Well another reason I liked him in 5th that he was a hard-to-remove psychic hood. Don't need those anymore! Psychic hoods suck, as they can't stop buffs of any kind.

And in 5th, he could munch oblits, broadsides, sanguinary guard, etc. All those are off the table now.

Psychic hoods are an aura effect boost to DtW. That means that devastating maledictions like Doom and Misfortune affecting entire units within 6 inches are at least twice as likely to be cancelled out outright than normal. I think that makes them pretty good.

I played meFEASTon last week and stuffed him in a redeemer for kicks. I had a "combat unit"ed squad of ASM w/ a Sang priest run behind it.

I rolled for 3 random powers and ended with:smite, hemorrhage, prescience( i wanted the invuln save).

I kept him away from anything with a 2+ and ran straight for the troop picks which were bundled together. Lets just say he got almost 30 guys single handed. He's still meFEASTon, and hes still good. He ended the game with one wound, and he got that by a stupid perils.

I wouldn't play him competitively, but if you play for kicks like I do....why not.

If you play for kicks, then any unit is fine.

Martel732 wrote:
If you play for kicks, then any unit is fine.

This. I've had games where I've used Ogryns. They fun and can beat face. I wouldn't touch them in competitive play though. Everyone knows their weaknesses, and like Meph, they will exploit them.

Anecdotal evidence is not an argument for whether something is good or not.

I would consider Ogryns before Mephiston for competitive play. Probably if because the IG have far more wiggle room in their lists than the BA.

Martel732 wrote:
Probably if because the IG have far more wiggle room in their lists than the BA.

I disagree with that but it's irrelevant to the discussion, so I'm not going to rebut it >.>

Am I the only one that feels that beat stick ICs are a thing of the past? I mean I had a BA player bring mephiston, I shot him up with plasma before he got near me. I had a SW player bring LG, I threw a 100pt guard squad at him then shot him up. I had a chaos player bring Abaddon, he charged my CCS while I manoeuvred away and left him stranded chasing after the rest of my list.

The ICs that don't bring strong force multipliers (think DA, GK and DE ICs) just don't feel worth it any more, they just serve as an "oh gak, I better deal with that at some point" distraction. Maybe it's just the lists I bring, I'm sure against more elite armies they do better, but I feel that the elite armies are starting to decrease in number.

No, I think IC beat sticks have lost a lot of their luster as well. Shooting fixes most of these guys' wagons real good. Although, ironically, if Mephiston WERE an IC, I'd still use him.

For the IG, I was really referring to underpriced Vendettas. They are not paying the true value for them, so they have more points to "waste" on Ogyrns.

I always forget he's a single model unit. Man he really sucks. I had a buddy run a priest behind him to give him the FNP bubble. That was a minor annoyance. Although if he as an IC majority toughness would screw him over, I wouldn't stop laughing if a demolisher ID'd mephiston.

Yeah, I guess that would be possible then. The bottom line is that divination is much better than any effect from the BA codex, and Mepy can't effectively use divination. So guess what? He's out.

That's not 100% true, actually. Shield of Sanguinius still has some utility, but mostly in a drop pod situation.

 g0atsticks wrote:
I played meFEASTon last week and stuffed him in a redeemer for kicks. I had a "combat unit"ed squad of ASM w/ a Sang priest run behind it.

I rolled for 3 random powers and ended with:smite, hemorrhage, prescience( i wanted the invuln save).

I kept him away from anything with a 2+ and ran straight for the troop picks which were bundled together. Lets just say he got almost 30 guys single handed. He's still meFEASTon, and hes still good. He ended the game with one wound, and he got that by a stupid perils.

I wouldn't play him competitively, but if you play for kicks like I do....why not.

He can only trade out for 2 powers. Even more reason to stick with codex powers.

Yes, the glorious BA faq states that BA librarians generate only two powers from the new book. Including Mephiston, even though he's ML 3.

It basically means he can always use his force weapon, but still, it's stupid. I can't see why you'd ever change out for the rulebook powers.

Well, he could also potentially use a 2 warp charge and 1 warp charge power in the same turn. But I think invisibility affects a unit! Why are you such a fail, Mephiston?

Martel732 wrote:
Well, he could also potentially use a 2 warp charge and 1 warp charge power in the same turn. But I think invisibility affects a unit! Why are you such a fail, Mephiston?

Oh that's true, but again he's depending on luck. And yes, Invisibility affects a unit, but at least he can cast it on another unit other than himself.

Can it be cast on another unit, or is it "psyker and his unit"? And yes, that's much too much luck for my taste. Especially for *250* points!

It's on a unit within 24".

Beatstick characters can still work...but there's 2 caveats. First, they either have to be a force-multiplier unit or secondly, they need to have enough mobility.

1. An HQ who is a deathstar unit can work if he is also a force-multiplier. An example would be the Swarmlord, who has 2 psychic powers and thus can buff the army with them, who can dole out PE or FC to different units, who provide longer synapse range and who can affect tyranid reserves and make it easier for them to come in. Lastly he is a bullet magnet and a counter-assault unit that protects the rest of the army, especially from other more assaulty armies.

Then you've got Draigo, who makes paladins scoring, has access to Grand Strategy, can manipulate reserves and is also a scary guy.

Logan is another unit buffer, making heavy weapons relentless, giving units PE and giving all space wolves within range +1A.


2. A beatstick with mobility can still be effective. However, keep in mind that no HQ, no matter how badass he is, can take on an enire army all by himself. He needs help. Such beatsticks include a Destroyer Lord in a unit of wraiths, TWC Wolf Lord with thunderwolf cavalry, a flying daemon prince with special chaos weapon (fragile, but quite killy once he gets into combat) and HQ's in asault transports that has the resiliency to get them where they're needed. Why does this type of HQ work? It is because he can control the movement of the opponent, limiting your opponent in terms of deployment or where they can go. People often think an army needs to be really good in shooting or in assault to be able to win. They often under-estimate an army that can control the Movement phase well, which is why armies like the necrons are so successful.

As stated before the lack of getting over 2+ saves really hurts him, but more so since 6th has seen a major increase in the use of terminators.

 Spartan089 wrote:
As stated before the lack of getting over 2+ saves really hurts him, but more so since 6th has seen a major increase in the use of terminators.

In 5th he could handle 2+ saves, so there was no problem

also the most commonly used terminator still has a 3++ so really his chances against terminators only got a little worse.
His inability to take out other ICs with 2+ saves is the problem. Most SM ICs have 2+ saves and even with his stupid "enthralling" he bounces off most of them now.

3+ save fails twice as often as 2+. I wouldn't describe that as "a little worse."

 Spartan089 wrote:
As stated before the lack of getting over 2+ saves really hurts him, but more so since 6th has seen a major increase in the use of terminators.

Again, even in 5th terminators are risky for him to take on, having no invul means if you dont flat out wipe them the Fist or Hammer can kill him.
Sending him to fight TH/SS termies was always a bad idea.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
As stated before the lack of getting over 2+ saves really hurts him, but more so since 6th has seen a major increase in the use of terminators.

In 5th he could handle 2+ saves, so there was no problem

also the most commonly used terminator still has a 3++ so really his chances against terminators only got a little worse.
His inability to take out other ICs with 2+ saves is the problem. Most SM ICs have 2+ saves and even with his stupid "enthralling" he bounces off most of them now.

Only if the opposing IC has a AP2 weapon, otherwise he wins anyway.

Granted, but there are a lot of IC that are +2 that ate popular choices now. Grimnar, Abby, Belial, anyone in artficer armor. Maybe when it comes Xenos its no problem, but +2 IC are pretty common for MEQs.

Look, I can live with his place on the beatstick food chain. But he has to burn his psychic powers just to be mobile. And then the psychic hood basically sucks now. I can just get way more utility out of an epistolary with a jump pack. 2 X divination powers on an ASM squad can make the whole squad nasty.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Granted, but there are a lot of IC that are +2 that ate popular choices now. Grimnar, Abby, Belial, anyone in artficer armor. Maybe when it comes Xenos its no problem, but +2 IC are pretty common for MEQs.

2+ save opponents aren't the issue, as Meph is 2+ as well. The issue is 2+ save opponents with AP2 weapons, and who is that exactly?

Thunderwolf lords with runic armor and a powerfist/thunder-hammer - Wolf claws are more common
Lysander - Rare
Calgar - Almost non-existent
Beliel w/T-hammer/SS - Not super common
Edit: Forgot Ghazghull! - Common in 5th...not sure about 6th though with WAAAGH being nerfed.
...I can't think of anything else off-hand

Many of your MeQ army commanders may have a 2+ save (which hasn't been my experience, with so many librarians being around), but most lack the AP2 weapon to level the playing field. Meph will be hitting on a 3+ with a reroll of 1s, and wounding on a 2+ with rerolls on 1s, and his opponent only has to fail 1 save to end up face down (either because of being S10, or being a force weapon). Your typical runic bladed commander is going to need 4s to hit, 4s to wound and then is facing a 2+ save as well. Meph needs to land one, and the commander needs to land 5 and meph also has more attacks.

As for terminators wrecking him...well, TH/SS termies have always been messed him up, and it's gotten worse there, but now normal terminators can as well. Normal terminators are more common, sure, but I don't think there are more overall terminator boots on the board today then there was over a year ago. You are far more likely to see meph end up face down due to shooting than melee.

OK a couple of things of note having read the discussion:

He's not an IC, but IC's can join him. So you can put a jump HQ with him, and/or a priest and/or a Chaplain, or 3 priests and 3 chaplains and a JP Captain for a death star's death star

I've had him run against me twice. Now that my buddy is getting the hang of him he's a freaking powerhouse. I would just keep his stock powers, since they give him mobility, hitting power and the ability to snipe other characters straight out of the game.

His AP3 makes it hard for him to deal with 2+ armor, but there's a lot of juicy 3+ armor targets out there for him.

Page 39 of the core rulebook explicitly states that ICs can not join units of one model.

I understand the above poster's points, but I still have a hard time justifying 250 points for him.

Oh, my bad I guess that was just carryover from 5th where you could since he was just infantry.

He has trouble running against hordes of things too.

It's all good. GW is known for arcane rule placing.