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i play orks so i dont have the choas deamons codex to look at but have been thinking about starting a deamon and chaos army and buying all that soon and was looking for some info before i invest.
my question is what models are affected by the tally?
i believe its all nurgle models (dont know the wording) but could you make it so that cultists can be improved by the tally?
if so could you make a list to have some big guys (like nurgle terms or something) to rack the tally up then just max out cultists so once the tally is up you have tons of FNP ignore armor saves cultists?
and deamons would be my allies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/31 18:34:08
It works better when combined with Plague Marines. It makes their bolters ignore armor, they are T5, so they get a FNP against anything STR 9 or less.
The problem is an Epi list is a 'rock-scissor-paper-lizard-spock' list. If someone does not have a way to deal with Epi after you have dropped in in your backfield and ran him into a bastion, your opponent will be having all kinds of a bad day. Before you know it, the nurgle marines are nearly invincible.
If someone has the tools to take out Epi, then your list can fall apart.
Well, its a matter of durability per point. Warning : MathHammer Ahead!!
Durability A good way to balance the durability of a unit is to compare point-for-point its ability to absorb fire in comparison to other units. In other words, if 20 bolter shots will kill 1 plague marine, but kill 6.6 orks. A total of 24 points of PM will die, yet 39.6 points of orks will die from the same firepower.
Formula
Your base resilience (BR) is based upon the following formula. Using this to can determine how many shots it takes to kill one model.
Base resilience = 1/(((To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Fail Save) * (Fail FNP)) / (Wounds))
Divide this value by the cost of the model to get its resilience-per-point (RPP)
Base resilience per point = ((Base resilience)/(Point Cost)) * 100
Just make an excel spreadsheet to do this for you.
Results Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ bolter shots
Plague Marine....84.6
Grey Hunter........60
Ork.....................50
Terminator..........45
Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ AutoCannon shots
Grey Hunter........36
Plague Marine....33.75
Ork.....................30
Terminator..........27
This is the RPP result from Melta Gun/PG shots
Ork.....................30
TH/SS termie......13.5
Grey Hunter........12
Plague Marine....11.25
Terminator..........6.75
A more complete list of examples 150.00 - Grot (Aegis)
112.50 - Grot (KFF)
90.00 - Plague Bearers (Aegis)
89.55 - Chaos Space Marine (Mark of Nurgle)
89.55 - Chaos Cultist (Aegis, Autogun)
85.29 - Chaos Cultist (MoN, Aegis, Autogun)
80.60 - Plague Marines
79.02 - Chaos Space Marine (Mark of Nurgle, Vets)
75.00 - Grot
75.00 - Ork Boy
What does this all mean? Yes, you do get more durability per point with MoN cultists when their behind an aegis. Outside an aegis they just fall flat compared to the PMs.
The other problem is 'killyness' of the list. You need to be able to kill something and cultists don't deliver. Even when their attacks ignore saves.
I'm not saying "Dont take any cultists" Go ahead and take some. They make great objective campers. However and army of cultists has inherent limitations.
so nurgle marines are much more durable in almost all senarios for their point cost compared to cultists and they dish out more damage which is much needed to get the tally up.
but cultists are not bad just need balance in the list gotcha.
would the cultists guns ignore armor too or is that only the plauge marines bolters?
mouskowitz wrote: so nurgle marines are much more durable in almost all senarios for their point cost compared to cultists and they dish out more damage which is much needed to get the tally up.
but cultists are not bad just need balance in the list gotcha.
would the cultists guns ignore armor too or is that only the plauge marines bolters?
Cultists would never get the FNP as they do not start with it
they would get posioned attacks in CC, which PM already have
their shooting and CC weapons would ignore armor, but then bs4 bolters are better than bs3 laspistols, even if you both ignore armor.
the cultists would be stuck with that 6+ save and T4, where as the PM would be rocking T5 3+ then 3+ FNP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, MoN cultists are 6 points a model, 7 with a rifle(lasgun). Not exactly cheap. MoN marines and Havocs are 16 points a model and well have marines statlines and bolters. PM are 24 points and have the added FNP(which gets better) and ubergrit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/31 19:22:38
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
mouskowitz wrote: gotcha thank you very much that is exactly what i was looking for . so plauge marines are the way to go.
what other units benifit alot from the tally?
its not just what units benefit from it, what units can wrack the tally up quickly and at long range. You need to kill stuff with MoN models to get the tally to the point where it does anything.
Havocs and oblitorators with MoN are your long range solution
MoN bikers can be pretty sick and not too expensive.
CSM are nasty and more versitile than PM.
The oblits arent really any better once powered up, i suppose assault cannons that ignore armor can be sexy but otherwise who cares. March them up killing models and taking shots.
Autocannon havocs would be awesome ignoring armor. They also can kill a few models in the begining to get the tally up.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
You know what, only reaching a tally of 10 would make your MoN cultists wound on a 2+ in CC.
Imagine adding Abaddon to that equation when fighting any SM based codex.
With preffered enemy you'd be wounding on a 2+ rerolling 1's lol.
Someone better at mathhammer than me could perhaps do the sum but i think that would be about 52 wounds on the charge from a 35 man blob of MoN cultists.
L0rdF1end wrote: You know what, only reaching a tally of 10 would make your MoN cultists wound on a 2+ in CC.
Imagine adding Abaddon to that equation when fighting any SM based codex.
With preffered enemy you'd be wounding on a 2+ rerolling 1's lol.
Someone better at mathhammer than me could perhaps do the sum but i think that would be about 52 wounds on the charge from a 35 man blob of MoN cultists.
if you added a DA you could increase your damage by 50%
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
L0rdF1end wrote: You know what, only reaching a tally of 10 would make your MoN cultists wound on a 2+ in CC.
Imagine adding Abaddon to that equation when fighting any SM based codex.
With preffered enemy you'd be wounding on a 2+ rerolling 1's lol.
Someone better at mathhammer than me could perhaps do the sum but i think that would be about 52 wounds on the charge from a 35 man blob of MoN cultists.
if you added a DA you could increase your damage by 50%
They don't get FNP naturally, so they won't be getting the 3+ FNP Epidemius provides. While they will get 2+ wounding attacks that ignore armor, they have no shooting attacks.
The problem with Epi lists is they have an achilles heel. If you can manage to get Epi, their buff fades. This means that all the points spent on the havocs, etc are wasted.
Some lists cant do this -- thats where its very helpful. Other lists do this with little difficulty (drop pod SW) That's why I describe this as a rock-scissor-paper-lizard-spock list. Its great in some matchups and loses in others.
labmouse42 wrote: Well, its a matter of durability per point. Warning : MathHammer Ahead!!
Durability A good way to balance the durability of a unit is to compare point-for-point its ability to absorb fire in comparison to other units. In other words, if 20 bolter shots will kill 1 plague marine, but kill 6.6 orks. A total of 24 points of PM will die, yet 39.6 points of orks will die from the same firepower.
Formula
Your base resilience (BR) is based upon the following formula. Using this to can determine how many shots it takes to kill one model.
Base resilience = 1/(((To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Fail Save) * (Fail FNP)) / (Wounds))
Divide this value by the cost of the model to get its resilience-per-point (RPP)
Base resilience per point = ((Base resilience)/(Point Cost)) * 100
Just make an excel spreadsheet to do this for you.
Results Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ bolter shots
Plague Marine....84.6
Grey Hunter........60
Ork.....................50
Terminator..........45
Using this you get the following RPP values from MEQ AutoCannon shots
Grey Hunter........36
Plague Marine....33.75
Ork.....................30
Terminator..........27
This is the RPP result from Melta Gun/PG shots
Ork.....................30
TH/SS termie......13.5
Grey Hunter........12
Plague Marine....11.25
Terminator..........6.75
A more complete list of examples 150.00 - Grot (Aegis)
112.50 - Grot (KFF)
90.00 - Plague Bearers (Aegis)
89.55 - Chaos Space Marine (Mark of Nurgle)
89.55 - Chaos Cultist (Aegis, Autogun)
85.29 - Chaos Cultist (MoN, Aegis, Autogun)
80.60 - Plague Marines
79.02 - Chaos Space Marine (Mark of Nurgle, Vets)
75.00 - Grot
75.00 - Ork Boy
What does this all mean? Yes, you do get more durability per point with MoN cultists when their behind an aegis. Outside an aegis they just fall flat compared to the PMs.
The other problem is 'killyness' of the list. You need to be able to kill something and cultists don't deliver. Even when their attacks ignore saves.
I'm not saying "Dont take any cultists" Go ahead and take some. They make great objective campers. However and army of cultists has inherent limitations.
I like the way you compare toughness of various units but the only thing I would add to consider is movement. Shoota boyz always come out best for Ork units but reliably getting them to the opponents objectives is where they are lacking.
Chaos lord with mark of nurgle, bike, sigil, gift, blight, melta, axe and brand
Sorcerer with jump pack,, mark of nurgle, level 3, spell familliar, gift
20 Cultists with mark of nurgle, autoguns and 2 heavy stubbers
20 Cultists with mark of nurgle, autoguns and 2 heavy stubbers
20 Cultists with mark of nurgle, autoguns and 2 heavy stubbers
20 Cultists with mark of nurgle, autoguns and 2 heavy stubbers
5 Chaos spawn with mark of nurgle
3 Obliterators with mark of nurgle and veteran of the long war
3 Obliterators with mark of nurgle and veteran of the long war
Epidemius
17 plaguebearers
comes to 1997 points
Remember you need to get your kills in, so that's what the spawn, obliterators and lord are for.
The sorcerer attempts 1 roll on the nurgle table, then twice on biomancy, and sticks nearby the spawn as to not slow them down. Lets not forget the lord has the brand of skalthrax or whatever, so stuff dies at range too.
The plaguebearers and epi stay at home, while everything else goes forward, autoguns on the cultists are a must. The spawn and lord run down anything they touch, while the oblits and cultists shore up the advance. By turn 2-3, you should have your tally at 20.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/31 22:15:28
Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.
Corollax wrote: They don't get FNP naturally, so they won't be getting the 3+ FNP Epidemius provides. While they will get 2+ wounding attacks that ignore armor, they have no shooting attacks.
Generally a poor choice by comparison.
cultists have shooting weapons
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
L0rdF1end wrote: juraigamer, not a bad take on it at all, you have any games with it?
Yes in fact, I have played it a few times against various types of enemies, including mechanized.
What happened every game was either the enemy tried to take out epidemius and crew, or started wasting shots on the spawn and/or obliterators. Since anything below str 9 doesn't bother them, only str 10 was an issue for the obliterators, and few people have str 10 shooting, those that do, get it focused down.
Normally the spawn and/or lord don't make it to when the game ends, but by then they have managed to cause all kinds of hell. The obliterators are tough to deal with, just don't send them out unsupported.
What psy powers you get tends to be key for the strat, if you get nurgles maladiction, endurance and enfeeble, it's easy street. Endurance on the spawn makes them stupid good, enfeeble is laughably funny when shooting autoguns and when possible, assault guns hitting multi-wound toughness 4 guys for instant death.
As everything goes, the cultists get more powerful. Never be afraid to charge with them when they +2 poison hits and by the time all attacks ignore armor saves as well. Just because you have 40 shots doesn't mean you should use them if the enemy is in cover. Having 15 guys charge a 10 man tactical squad with this, cultists tend to win.
Don't forget the sorcerer is either hanging with an obliterator unit or in with some cultists, and he can put the hurt on as well.
Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.
Corollax wrote: They don't get FNP naturally, so they won't be getting the 3+ FNP Epidemius provides. While they will get 2+ wounding attacks that ignore armor, they have no shooting attacks.
I'm alternating between my Noise Marines list and a tally list and in my experience you can't play tally without cultists. Once that tally goes up, they get silly. Not for survivability of course, but for their offensive output.
Very interesting read, thanks for the feedback juraigamer, tempted to test run this to see how it fairs.
No matter your army it is always good to have options so you can change your list to fit current meta so its always good to have a few possibilities available. Something like this might just be one of them, especially when we've seen a few more SM based codex's hit the shelves.
Abaddon will be the death of you, watch out SM!
Desert Hunters of Vior'la 
The Purge 
Adepts of Pestilence 
Tallaran Desert Raiders 
Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
