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I don't know what the true cost of the Vendetta should be exactly, but those triple twin linked lascannons are quite nice. I don't hold many of the Stormraven's advantages in very high regard, but it should have to pay for them, but it shouldn't be too much more expensive than the vendetta because it's weapon load out is not as good. And the vendetta has cargo capacity as well.

I think the 150-170 range for the vendetta is appropriate. But either way we won't see a points increase until the next guard codex comes out. I seriously doubt they would adjust the points with the new compendium. That being said, if the points cost did go up I would feel less bad about pissing people off when I want to bring three of them.


Edit -

Also the SR has the ceramite armor rule. Since we are trying to cost compare, a SR could concivably down 2 flyers a turn. Where as the triple twin linked lascannons have a higher chance of destroying one thing, they can only destroying one thing a turn. I think the vendetta is probably the best flyer in the game currently , but that should not diminish the versatility and utility of the SR.

Brymm wrote:Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators... The Heldrake is amazing.

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

And the helldrake is IMMUNE to close combat, and it can also easily show up anywhere on the board to get exactly the right target, and is generally only hit on 6's.

Just because other, good, units have torrent weapons doesn't mean that a unit with a torrent weapon is necessarily good.

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

If PoTMS let you fire in sequential order, I would price it as being valuable. Usually, I'm so desperate to stop *a* heldrake, I just shoot everything at said heldrake and ignore PoTMS. If i got to open up with PoTMS and then see the result, and then choose a different target, it would be worthwhile. If the Stormravn is 200 base, I can't see lower than 175 for the Vendetta. It does everything meaningful a Stormraven does, and potentially from twice as far away. Again, I'm not sure how much of a boon ceramite armor is on a flyer. If you put it on a LR, it would rock.

Ailaros- Except you need to pay for the teleporter and it's weapons, they don't just come with shunt or the heavy incinerator, meaning if you also get a NGS for assault then it costs more then two hellhounds.

Helldrakes have hover mode meaning they are not in fact immune to CC. The helldrake is still insanely better though and occupies the same slot but keep in mind it is from a 6th ed codex and is 4 years newer.

 Ailaros wrote:

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

I was thinking the exact same thing. If a hellhound could shunt, it might be freaking awesome. Also if it had a 2+ save and could beat face...

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

Yeah...sorry. It's hard to not get derailed and talk about the elephant in the room. I'll shut up about it now.

You can kind-of shunt the HH's using Creed's ability to outflank a unit.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
You can kind-of shunt the HH's using Creed's ability to outflank a unit.

I guess, if by shunting you mean paying 90pts for it to come in by reserve, on the wrong table edge 1/3rd of the time, and not be able to fire on turn 1.

Martel732 wrote:
If PoTMS let you fire in sequential order, I would price it as being valuable. Usually, I'm so desperate to stop *a* heldrake, I just shoot everything at said heldrake and ignore PoTMS. If i got to open up with PoTMS and then see the result, and then choose a different target, it would be worthwhile. If the Stormravn is 200 base, I can't see lower than 175 for the Vendetta. It does everything meaningful a Stormraven does, and potentially from twice as far away. Again, I'm not sure how much of a boon ceramite armor is on a flyer. If you put it on a LR, it would rock.

I can't believe you are seriously questioning ceremite armor, I still see the majority of fliers downed by melta weapons be those of obliterators or masses of infantry. You keep ignoring the fact that the SR for BA comes with 4 S8 AP1 missiles and has an assault cannon and MM, both of which are TL and destroy armor efficiently. Vendettas are good but no where near SR good. Keep in mind rear AV12 on a SR means it can switch into hover mode more often without worry from assault most times and again it has ceremite plating!

Yep - thats what I mean. The effect it has when there are other templates from your heavy section is a good example of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 Ailaros wrote:


And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

To be fair this thread asked a silly question in the first place. I mean the vendetta IS relevant to this topic as it costs the exact same amount, occupies the same slot and also can form squadrons. So yeah it may be irritating but it's really the chief reason against taking HH's.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If PoTMS let you fire in sequential order, I would price it as being valuable. Usually, I'm so desperate to stop *a* heldrake, I just shoot everything at said heldrake and ignore PoTMS. If i got to open up with PoTMS and then see the result, and then choose a different target, it would be worthwhile. If the Stormravn is 200 base, I can't see lower than 175 for the Vendetta. It does everything meaningful a Stormraven does, and potentially from twice as far away. Again, I'm not sure how much of a boon ceramite armor is on a flyer. If you put it on a LR, it would rock.

I can't believe you are seriously questioning ceremite armor, I still see the majority of fliers downed by melta weapons be those of obliterators or masses of infantry. You keep ignoring the fact that the SR for BA comes with 4 S8 AP1 missiles and has an assault cannon and MM, both of which are TL and destroy armor efficiently. Vendettas are good but no where near SR good. Keep in mind rear AV12 on a SR means it can switch into hover mode more often without worry from assault most times and again it has ceremite plating!

It's AV 12 dude. You need have to use melta to frag it, so why is the ceramite plating good again? I see the majority of fliers downed by guess what? Vendettas. And their lascannons don't give a damn about cermite plating, or what the rear armor is. If you think these trivial advantages justify a the cost of the stormraven, great. But I think we again have the case where marines are paying points for gizmos that don't actually make much of a difference when the fight starts.

 Ailaros wrote:

Brymm wrote:Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators... The Heldrake is amazing.

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

And the helldrake is IMMUNE to close combat, and it can also easily show up anywhere on the board to get exactly the right target, and is generally only hit on 6's.

Just because other, good, units have torrent weapons doesn't mean that a unit with a torrent weapon is necessarily good.

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

I apologize for spending time talking about Vendettas. I may be wrong but doesn't the hellhound compete with valkrie/vendettas for the same FOC? Is the cost of a Valkrie/Vendetta about the same as a hellhound? The broken unit in the FOC enters into the discussion because while a hellhound may be situationally OK a vendetta is considered universally good to the point it is considered a main reason for taking IG as allies or basing an IG army around them.
For a comparison, an eldar can take 3 x war walkers with scatter lasers for 180 or a Falcon with an EML for around 150... both comparable costs but talk to any Eldar player and he is going to chose the War Walkers....

Flame tanks in general in 6th are now on a suicide mission. While this might be acceptable for a BA razor with TL HF that was discounted anyway, it seems unacceptable for a tank with the pricetag of a hellhound. Even moving crazy BA speed, they WS 1 to get hit with krak grenades or whatever in assault.

Unfortunately, the topic derailed because its basically impossible to talk about IG without the vendetta coming up somehow due to how crazy good it is.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

No they won't bump up the cost 60 Points given with how Cheap frakking Raven wing is and Death wing , 30 Points i'd under stand , but guess what if it does go up ? i switch to Valkyries and get basically the exact same thing for still 130 , that argument doesn't makes sense , yes i agree that they where Underpriced for what you get but a 60 Point increase does not justify anything

But back to the Original OP , Yes what makes Hellhounds seem gakky is that they are competeing for a slot Against Vendettas , much of this is metta Dependent since a Hellhound and Vendetta are exactly the same cost , i would just suggest that take Valkyries with MRP's rather then Hellhounds due to getting all of those normal advantages associated with flyers . I personally won't touch Hellhounds and only Marginally Touch Devil dogs due to their Melta Cannon and using Creed to outflnak a Squadren of them . -- So Honest , Stick with a Vendetta because i doubt the Price will go up that Much ( even if it does ill still bring 3 ) if you need to destroy hordes , Take a( or several ) Valkyries with Multiple Rocket Pods and you only have to worry about skyfire yet again ,

190 is a much more intellectually honest price for the thing, assuming a true price of 170-175. 130 was borderline in 5th. It's funny that I found the Stormraven to have been unfieldable in 5th. Against good lists, it died in one turn nearly every time. Unacceptable for 200 pts. Flier rules have made the Stormraven worth using, but made the previously marginal vendetta CRAZY.

Martel732 wrote:
190 is a much more intellectually honest price for the thing, assuming a true price of 170-175. 130 was borderline in 5th. It's funny that I found the Stormraven to have been unfieldable in 5th. Against good lists, it died in one turn nearly every time. Unacceptable for 200 pts. Flier rules have made the Stormraven worth using, but made the previously marginal vendetta CRAZY.

The Storm Raven has 12 Armor all around can carry a 12 Man Marine Team along with a Dreadnought and is practically immune to traditional melta shots not only that but can pack twin melta guns and hurricane bolters - That makes sense as it can equally kill Armor and Infantry . the Vendetta is Strictly Anti-tank ( although the Valkyrie with MRP is the same cost ) I would agree with 170 ish around their but 190 is Absurd

If the Vendetta could carry something else beside guardsmen then I could see all the anti-vendetta hysteria as justified. Three BS3 TL lascannon shots that might show up turn 2 with rear armor 10 isnt that big a deal IMHO. I agree, its a good source for anti-air support.

If my meta starts to get swamped with Storm Ravens and Hell Drakes then Ill get concerned about flyers and begin thinking Vendettas are a must-include. Vendettas are not on my public-enemy-number-one list. The other 2 are because they pose a threat to my OBJ scoring units; one delivers hard hitting units, the other a hard hitting template. The vendetta hits with 2 or 3 lascannon shots. I see the vendetta as top of its class for AA support, the other two hit much harder because all lists will have some troop scoring ability, not all list will have air support.

Melta weapons are STR 8, which last time I looked, can penetrate AV 12 just fine. If ceramite armor negated the AP 1 as well, I'd be more impressed.

Look I agree that in theory that carrying all those marines and dread should be an asset, but the way the rules and games work out, the Stormraven's carrying capacity is an inadvisable risk due to reserve rolls and crashing flier rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
If the Vendetta could carry something else beside guardsmen then I could see all the anti-vendetta hysteria as justified. Three BS3 TL lascannon shots that might show up turn 2 with rear armor 10 isnt that big a deal IMHO. I agree, its a good source for anti-air support.

If my meta starts to get swamped with Storm Ravens and Hell Drakes then Ill get concerned about flyers and begin thinking Vendettas are a must-include. Vendettas are not on my public-enemy-number-one list. The other 2 are because they pose a threat to my OBJ scoring units; one delivers hard hitting units, the other a hard hitting template. The vendetta hits with 2 or 3 lascannon shots. I see the vendetta as top of its class for AA support, the other two hit much harder because all lists will have some troop scoring ability, not all list will have air support.

If you brought vendettas, you could really punish they player bringing hard hitting units in a Stormraven. I don't know about GK, but this is an ill-advised tactic for BA.

Well, my question isn't "what's the best FA choice?" My question is "seriously, why would you take a hellhound?"

Sounds like under the current situation, you wouldn't. This is an eternal problem with GW games, and why points for units should be updated in real time on the internet, not printed in physical books.

Because under the current situation, I would always use a vendetta over a stormraven, much less a hell hound. The hell hound just got kinda hosed, along with my Baals with flamestorm cannons. Fortunately, I magnetized those things. I know the hell hound does not have the same luxury.

I would bring 3 hel hounds as a single unit, outflanking with Creed's ability. Supported with 2 Vendettas each on their own slot with some combination of Eradicator, Manticore and Griffon, maxing out my heavy slots.

Pretty much only then.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
I would bring 3 hel hounds as a single unit, outflanking with Creed's ability. Supported with 2 Vendettas each on their own slot with some combination of Eradicator, Manticore and Griffon, maxing out my heavy slots.

Pretty much only then.

But why.

Outflanking 3 Hellhounds sounds like a horrible waste of so many points and a outflank-slot.

Almost every opponent Ive palyed against uses an Aegis Defense Line. Cover saves really hurt a shooty-lists.

Those are the 2 main reasons.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, my question isn't "what's the best FA choice?" My question is "seriously, why would you take a hellhound?"

Other than, "I like the model" or fluf reasons, I can't see any reason to field one. I would rather have the banewolf or the devil dog than the hellhound. Other units I would have more fun with in the fast attack slot that are suboptimal: armored or scout sentinels and roughriders.


You were complaining about the vendetta, which gets mentioned in 90% of the tactical threads on dakka, I guess be thankful that Marbo hasn't popped up in his thread yet, OH NO! He just did!

Are the other variants in question here? I'd probably never use the Banewolf variant, but the Devil Dog certainly didn't get any worse with the change to blasts against vehicles. A little more reliable anti-tank now anyways than it was before. Costs 135pts with the hull multi-melta. Certainly not terrible anyways.

 Blacksails wrote:
Are the other variants in question here? I'd probably never use the Banewolf variant, but the Devil Dog certainly didn't get any worse with the change to blasts against vehicles. A little more reliable anti-tank now anyways than it was before. Costs 135pts with the hull multi-melta. Certainly not terrible anyways.

But its just essentially two Multi-meltas.

You still need to be in 12" to double your d6 for penetration.

Anyone half-decent will just put troops in front as a buffer.

Only worth it if you're facing Land Raiders.

Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers , People need to Learn to Adapt to the waves of change , The only listi have seen effectively beat Necron Flyer spam is a similarly built Vendetta one because it is going to automatically glance and will 99% of the time pen not to mention its AP2 so your talking about swatting these things down with no effort .

I think more people than space marine players are complaining about the vendetta. Ask a nid player how long their skyrants last with those things flying around. Or a CSM player about their heldrakes.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers

Well, you're wrong. If it's an addition/revision to the rules, then just like an errata it changes the rules.

If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

But, additionally, what few seem to realize, is that the original poster saying "Vendetta now priced at 190" was posting conjecture in a "hopefully" state of mind.

There have been no rumors or even suggestions that existing flyer prices will change.

Relax.