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 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers

Well, you're wrong. If it's an addition/revision to the rules, then just like an errata it changes the rules.

If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

But, additionally, what few seem to realize, is that the original poster saying "Vendetta now priced at 190" was posting conjecture in a "hopefully" state of mind.

There have been no rumors or even suggestions that existing flyer prices will change.

Relax.

Games Workshop won't go threw the time and money to Change EVERY units cost as soon as a new addition comes out , its an Addition to the game like Planet Strike or Cities of Death - The Cost is only changed in a New Codex , if this wasn't so along time ago Tau would have had an Errata or something changing hte cost of units same with Black templar and Eldar , it won't happen

It's not really that much time or cost. They just do things the way they do.

Made a Seperate thread for Vendetta Cost thing

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/505209.page#5248087


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I think more people than space marine players are complaining about the vendetta. Ask a nid player how long their skyrants last with those things flying around. Or a CSM player about their heldrakes.

Nids yeah got gimped in not being able to use fortifacaitions , People don't want to know how to adapt and overcome , Their Stuck and their ways and arn't willing to learn on how to beat a combo

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers

Well, you're wrong. If it's an addition/revision to the rules, then just like an errata it changes the rules.

If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

But, additionally, what few seem to realize, is that the original poster saying "Vendetta now priced at 190" was posting conjecture in a "hopefully" state of mind.

There have been no rumors or even suggestions that existing flyer prices will change.

Relax.

Games Workshop won't go threw the time and money to Change EVERY units cost as soon as a new addition comes out , its an Addition to the game like Planet Strike or Cities of Death - The Cost is only changed in a New Codex , if this wasn't so along time ago Tau would have had an Errata or something changing hte cost of units same with Black templar and Eldar , it won't happen

Did you read anything I said?

The Book is additional rules. It's like a WD Update. It's part of the rules.

And none of the unit prices are changing. Jesus.

Stormraven is being made available for all SM codices, Stormtalon and the Ork Flyer rules are being printed, and a few new flyers are getting released.

Calm yourself. No one is changing your precious Vendetta's price.

But if they did in a valid rule update, and you chose not to accept it, that would be cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

Nids yeah got gimped in not being able to use fortifacaitions

Nids can take "Fortifications"

Hive Guard in a Bastion is awesome.

I understood it that Nids couldn't fire emplacements ? that was what i was getting at is with the Skyfire emplacements -- and Flyrants arn't really that good , i hit you once and if you fail your grounding test it potentinally can kill you --- And not the Vendetta is personally Precious to me but i do enjoying making Necron Bakarys piss themselfs when i field 6 of em independently shooting down targets at 2k points --rules and Codex cost updates are two different things

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
I understood it that Nids couldn't fire emplacements ? that was what i was getting at is with the Skyfire emplacements -- and Flyrants arn't really that good , i hit you once and if you fail your grounding test it potentinally can kill you --- And not the Vendetta is personally Precious to me but i do enjoying making Necron Bakarys piss themselfs when i field 6 of em independently shooting down targets at 2k points --rules and Codex cost updates are two different things

Nids don't really need anti-flyer. Their ground-game is sick. A nid player won Seattle TSHFT with just two Flyrants.

Well i guess i should correct that , In my Experiance i have never lost a trooper to a Flyrant , i always shoot holes in them when i come in from Reserve

Isn't it limited edition?

CaptainGrey wrote:If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

You've got it backwards. In any case, this is a forum to discuss the usefullness of hellhounds. PLEASE don't turn this into another self-righteous pro-forgeworld diatribe.

CaptainGrey wrote:Nids don't really need anti-flyer. Their ground-game is sick. A nid player won Seattle TSHFT with just two Flyrants.

What on earth does this have to do with hellhounds?

kaiservonhugal wrote:Almost every opponent Ive palyed against uses an Aegis Defense Line. Cover saves really hurt a shooty-lists.

Sure, but why HELLHOUNDS? There are other things in the guard codex that ignore cover saves. Things that do it better, or with a better Ap, or are cheaper, or score, etc.

 Ailaros wrote:

Brymm wrote:Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators... The Heldrake is amazing.

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

And the helldrake is IMMUNE to close combat, and it can also easily show up anywhere on the board to get exactly the right target, and is generally only hit on 6's.

Just because other, good, units have torrent weapons doesn't mean that a unit with a torrent weapon is necessarily good.

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

To your first point: Yes, the Dreadknight does all of those things, but at a premium price. Plus, does the IG dex get any 2+/5+ or T6? Do they beat face in combat? Of course not. The Guard codex is about disposable bodies, heavy firepower and the might of the Emperor. I think a torrent weapon on a fast vehicle in this Codex is good. About 100 pts good. I hate the price at 130.

Second, Heldrake costs 40 more points, making it significantly better. If you can't ally them in, then I would take a Hellhound, again, at 100 points instead of 130.

There is a reason to take high-strength torrent fire weapons: The Ageis Defense Line. You need to be able to clear out jerks from behind there. If you run into Tau/Eldar, Silver Tide or some Nids list, this can be a game breaker too. I like it.

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

You've got it backwards. In any case, this is a forum to discuss the usefullness of hellhounds. PLEASE don't turn this into another self-righteous pro-forgeworld diatribe.

Perhaps if you read the entire thread instead of simply jabbing at my posts out of context, you'd recognize that this has literally nothing to do with ForgeWorld.

The discussion in question is regarding the new GAMES WORKSHOP flyer compendium. And I mean, since it's GW and not some random, totally unconnected branch-company like FW, even you can concede that they are legal rules for the game.

(Not to mention your link in question has literally nothing relevant in support of your anti-FW stance. It's a discussion where the only supported anti-FW stance is "I don't like it, so I don't use it." Everything else was invalidated in that thread, thanks to FW's stellar clarifications at the beginning of their books. Oh, and the thread has nothing to do with Hellhounds, either. Pretty off topic, and seemingly intentionally instigating another FW debate. Which we don't need.)

CaptainGrey wrote:Nids don't really need anti-flyer. Their ground-game is sick. A nid player won Seattle TSHFT with just two Flyrants.

What on earth does this have to do with hellhounds?

Nothing. For a reason. The discussion went on a tangent. Perhaps if you read the entire thread...well. I'm starting to sound like a broken record for this bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

kaiservonhugal wrote:Almost every opponent Ive palyed against uses an Aegis Defense Line. Cover saves really hurt a shooty-lists.

Sure, but why HELLHOUNDS? There are other things in the guard codex that ignore cover saves. Things that do it better, or with a better Ap, or are cheaper, or score, etc.

Because they can get there in one turn. There. I'm on topic.

Brymm wrote:the Dreadknight does all of those things, but at a premium price. Second, Heldrake costs 40 more points

Yes, those things cost more, but you actually get what you pay for. The hellhound seems to have a lower price tag AND a worse value.

Especially when you start comparing it to other things even in its own codex, much less others.

Brymm wrote:There is a reason to take high-strength torrent fire weapons: The Ageis Defense Line.

Right, but there are plenty of things that can handle this situation. Why take hellhounds?

CaptainGrey wrote:Because they can get there in one turn.

With a ~24" threat range, though, how much are you really hitting on turn one? Furthermore, an eradicator also hits stuff turn one, but it comes with much heavier armor, and doesn't have to run like crazy out in front of your other stuff out in the open to do it either.

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:Because they can get there in one turn.

With a ~24" threat range, though, how much are you really hitting on turn one? Furthermore, an eradicator also hits stuff turn one, but it comes with much heavier armor, and doesn't have to run like crazy out in front of your other stuff out in the open to do it either.

Well, if we're going to be accurate, technically it has a 32" threat range (what with the flame template being 8" long), so if you deploy on the edge of your deployment, the Hellhound can hit anything within 8" of their front edge of deployment. Not really that bad.

The Hellhound is actually well-compared against the Eradicator for cover-breakers. The clear benefits for the Eradicator are longer range, larger damage footprint, and higher armor.

Hellhound is speed (being able to all but guarantee being safe from charges excepting Bikes and Jump Infantry), Accuracy (Never missing what you place it's template over), and a 30 point discount.

As much as I like the idea of a hellhound a pair of griffons is almost the same cost (within a pair of melta guns/ac for infantry, or the cost of a LC)

Both hit their target with a 6/4 attack
Griffons are ordinance barrage for pinning checks.
Griffons can barrage snipe
Griffons have a longer range.
Hell hounds ignore cover.
Griffons ignore most cover.
Hell hound can have a MM and isn't open topped.
Griffons have double the HP because there are 2 of them, 2 HB, but are open topped.
Griffons can hide out of LOS, hellhounds have to get in the enemy's face.
A pair of twin linked pie plates should hit more models than a never miss torrent flamer.

 schadenfreude wrote:
As much as I like the idea of a hellhound a pair of griffons is almost the same cost (within a pair of melta guns/ac for infantry, or the cost of a LC)

Both hit their target with a 6/4 attack
Griffons are ordinance barrage for pinning checks.
Griffons can barrage snipe
Griffons have a longer range.
Hell hounds ignore cover.
Griffons ignore most cover.
Hell hound can have a MM and isn't open topped.
Griffons have double the HP because there are 2 of them, 2 HB, but are open topped.
Griffons can hide out of LOS, hellhounds have to get in the enemy's face.
A pair of twin linked pie plates should hit more models than a never miss torrent flamer.

The hellhound can avoid chargers and still be fire-effective, whereas, well, the griffon can't.

Because when used with eradicators or colossi, and Creed, the opponent has no where to hide.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
As much as I like the idea of a hellhound a pair of griffons is almost the same cost (within a pair of melta guns/ac for infantry, or the cost of a LC)

Both hit their target with a 6/4 attack
Griffons are ordinance barrage for pinning checks.
Griffons can barrage snipe
Griffons have a longer range.
Hell hounds ignore cover.
Griffons ignore most cover.
Hell hound can have a MM and isn't open topped.
Griffons have double the HP because there are 2 of them, 2 HB, but are open topped.
Griffons can hide out of LOS, hellhounds have to get in the enemy's face.
A pair of twin linked pie plates should hit more models than a never miss torrent flamer.

The hellhound can avoid chargers and still be fire-effective, whereas, well, the griffon can't.

Meh, 6 of one half dozen of another.
Hellhound moves 12 and shoots with a 24" range + it's hull weapon..
Griffon moves 6" and shoots with a 48" range but cannot shoot it's hull mounted heavy bolter if it moves and shoots it's mortar..
Both are hit on a 3+ in CC.
IMO the griffon's extra range and tendency to try to stay out of trouble makes it less likely to get charged than a hellhound.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

I was thinking the exact same thing. If a hellhound could shunt, it might be freaking awesome. Also if it had a 2+ save and could beat face...

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

Yeah...sorry. It's hard to not get derailed and talk about the elephant in the room. I'll shut up about it now.

I'd say the Vendetta is almost entirely why the Hellhound isn't more popular, which makes the discussion of the Vendetta entirely on topic. I love my Hellhound, and I never leave home without it, but I know my IG army is weaker for its presence and a 3rd Vendetta is a much better use of points.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:Because they can get there in one turn.

With a ~24" threat range, though, how much are you really hitting on turn one? Furthermore, an eradicator also hits stuff turn one, but it comes with much heavier armor, and doesn't have to run like crazy out in front of your other stuff out in the open to do it either.

Well, if we're going to be accurate, technically it has a 32" threat range (what with the flame template being 8" long), so if you deploy on the edge of your deployment, the Hellhound can hit anything within 8" of their front edge of deployment. Not really that bad.

The Hellhound is actually well-compared against the Eradicator for cover-breakers. The clear benefits for the Eradicator are longer range, larger damage footprint, and higher armor.

Hellhound is speed (being able to all but guarantee being safe from charges excepting Bikes and Jump Infantry), Accuracy (Never missing what you place it's template over), and a 30 point discount.

In addition to all that, I'd say the hellhound's maneuverability gives it a marked advandated over the eradicator. If the enemy deploys outside of the eradicator's range or out of it's los, then having that extra armor and longer range shot won't help it in that scenario. The hellhound on the other hand can skirt around the board relatively easily and still fire off its template. It also has a lower profile and thus a better chance of getting cover saves from area terrain assuming you're hugging it as you move about.

Other than that, it keeps your heavy slots open like I've state before for other things you might rather take than the eradicator. For a list that doesn't take vendettas then you're gonna want to load up your heavies with vanquishers and what-not, rather than eradicators.

Personally i still love them. My strategy for the past 1k tourney was to table my opponent before he could bring flier spam to bear. It worked wonderfully. A hellhound obliterated his CCS behind his aegis top of turn 2 before his 3 vendettas and a vulture could come on and won me the game. Because of the BS3 on the HH, MM seems a waste of points. You are betting on a 1/2 chance to hit and need to be within 12 to do anything. Rather go for the intended targets for the HH with HF. Guard have enough tricks to break armor as it is (i play DKOK, so i have even more!).

the 12" move and shoot really makes them much harder to engage than most other vehicles. Most anti-inf weapons that ignore cover are inaccurate or have trouble with range. Being able to nearly guarantee a 4+ armor squad is dead is invaluable. and that AV12 side is deceptively hard to kill outside melta. Many try firing anti-chimera weapons at its side to find 12 is tougher to get through than most transports.

 zephoid wrote:
My strategy for the past 1k tourney was to table my opponent before he could bring flier spam to bear.

But both griffons and manticores are better at that. They can ignore ADLs and hit people behind bastions. Plus, they can handle vehicles out of LoS.

Sounds like I'm being picky, but when you've seen necron flier spam with the only models on the table are a bastion and an av:13 skimmer, your HH won't do much compared to a manticore, which can also deal with guard flier spam table one obliteration too.

Maybe, but I can hope my hull mounted MM pops it.

and what happens when they instead place the ADL around area terrain and G2G. sure, they only get a 3+ save vs barrage, but you arent getting very effective point efficiency out of artillery there unless you take a Colossus, which is expensive and fragile, or LR nova cannon, which is less accurate, more points, and is often target prioritized over HHs simply for the chassis.

 Ailaros wrote:

Yes, those things cost more, but you actually get what you pay for. The hellhound seems to have a lower price tag AND a worse value.

This is the silliest comment I have read in this thread. Of course it's value is less... it cost less.....

kaiservonhugal wrote:Maybe, but I can hope my hull mounted MM pops it.

Unlikely. You'd have to travel the whole table and then some to get in LoS.

zephoid wrote:and what happens when they instead place the ADL around area terrain and G2G.

Yes, you named one situation where the hellhound is better. Want me to list every possible situation where it's worse?

Red Corsair wrote:This is the silliest comment I have read in this thread. Of course it's value is less... it cost less.....

By value, I mean quality divided by price.

In this case, you actually get 180 points out of a helldrake, where it seems dubious you'd get 130 points out of a hellhound. Just because something is cheaper does not automatically make it better for its points. Otherwise, we'd only ever see guard players packing mortars and flamers because they're the cheapest option.

It turns out that there are many things in the world of 40k that give you more than what you spend on them. Those things are a good value, even if they're expensive.

When did efficiency matter to you, ailaros?

Everything that was said about the hell hound in this thread applies to the Baal with a flamestorm cannon. Now it doesn't have to compete against a fantastic flier in this slot, but there are plenty of other BA fast attack choices that have way better utility in 6th. Makes me kinda sad; I had fun with the fast flame tank in 5th.

Blaggard wrote:When did efficiency matter to you, ailaros?

When people went off the deep end in this conversation. Basically, it went like...

Brymm: Things that are better than hellhounds cost more, which makes them worse than hellhounds.

Me: Yes, but you actually get what you pay for. Paying more isn't in itself a bad thing if it gives you more effectiveness.

Corsair: Duh, if something is cheaper it's going to be worse.

Me: But being cheaper is fine if you get the effectiveness you pay for.

You: Since when did you care how much things cost.

Me: Price doesn't matter, effectiveness does. That's why paying more for a dreadknight is okay, because it actually DOES more. Just being cheaper doesn't make the hellhound better, nor does it make it worse.

Paraphrasing moi?
How very dare you!
I asked about efficiency rather that total cost.